Engine Conversions Discuss all aspects of engine conversions in this forum

CDI gr8flyer55

Reply
Old 10-20-2012, 01:08 PM
  #651
gr8flyer55
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg, PA
Posts: 806
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Looks good Rob, do you have the schematic for the circuit that you can post?
Is the board using the MC34063 voltage chip? I have a few of those here if that's what you are using to make the hv.

John
gr8flyer55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 01:25 PM
  #652
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

I test the board for a few years ago and it's very powerfull.
It can't be ocsilate by it selfs and don't need a overheated transistor [8D]
The frequentie is all times the same and the ocsilator is stopped if there is a spark.
The Voltage is secured at ~300 Volt, so the SCR is also protected.

We don't use it because it was bigger then the (timer) board we have.
But the spark we get from this board was very nice and strong.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sq45809.jpg
Views:	711
Size:	32.3 KB
ID:	1813113  
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 01:55 PM
  #653
captinjohn
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hesperia Michigan, MI
Posts: 12,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Like this https://www.google.com/search?q=MC34...w=1002&bih=468
captinjohn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 02:01 PM
  #654
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Like the one a just draw
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 02:02 PM
  #655
bluejets
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 288
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

With the response to Ray's suggestion about a zener on the SCR gate, I'm just wondering if anyone saw the circuit for the dc static circuit breaker I posted earlier and /or understand what it does/can do...??

It is possible that it would be unnecessary given the HV worked ok before.

It does however, give a way of making sure the SCR turns off when required and not just rely on the AK voltage falling to zero under coil discharge. I also have a simple suggestion circuit to turn off the oscillator during discharge if requred.
bluejets is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #656
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

When discharge, SCR is open, the capacitor is unloaded over the sparkcoil.
But the sparkcoil will do the same like the HV-coil was doing, the sparkcoil load the capacitor.
The Voltage turn backwards and load with a spike the capacitor.
Not to hole Voltage will be back into the capacitor, but enough to hold the SCR open.

My scope, digital, is not fast enough to see wat happen, better will be a scope with a tube for this kind of measurements.
I can't see spikes, LCD display are to slow to show them.
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 03:11 PM
  #657
gr8flyer55
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg, PA
Posts: 806
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Rob, what transistor is T1 in the schematic?

John
gr8flyer55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 03:19 PM
  #658
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

BC327 but a BC557 can do the job to

Tomorrow I make the board to test.
If it's working like I think it do I will make some for you too.
I have also put T1, the resistor and some components to secure the SCR on the PCB.
With this components I can also use the timerboard without changes.
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 03:26 PM
  #659
gr8flyer55
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg, PA
Posts: 806
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Jeff, what does your circuit look like for returning the voltage to zero?


John
gr8flyer55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 03:55 PM
  #660
bluejets
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: xnot applicable, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 288
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

The first circuit is to force the primary SCR to turn off. It uses a second SCR to dump a charged cap across the primary SCR which makes AK voltage zero. (same pic as post 603)

The second circuit should turn off the oscillator during discharge.
Rob might like to comment on that one.

Looks like jpeg conv. didn't turn out right. Base resistor is connected to micro output.



Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Ay75825.jpg
Views:	158
Size:	36.4 KB
ID:	1813143   Click image for larger version

Name:	Wr56275.jpg
Views:	396
Size:	39.4 KB
ID:	1813144  
bluejets is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 06:00 PM
  #661
Nav-Aids
 
Nav-Aids's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Winnipeg, MB, CANADA
Posts: 50
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

I know what your saying Rob, I did most of my work without the aid of a scope. But I saved up $200 dollars CDNand finally got a 10mhz dual channel storage scope. 10mhz is fast enough for 90% of my work and it makes life sssooooo much easier. Now instead of taking 6 months to make something work I can do it in a weekend. The satifaction of making a project work is still the same but, cost a whole lot less. I say kudos to anyone that can make a complicated project work with just a DMM, I've been there and done that.

Ray
Nav-Aids is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 06:38 PM
  #662
gr8flyer55
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg, PA
Posts: 806
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

I know I should buy a scope sometime, but I've gotten along without one for 30+ years of building ignitions with only a DMM, I'd have to start over learning how to use it. Maybe it's just the challenge of building things without one that keeps me going in this hobby.

John
gr8flyer55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 07:29 PM
  #663
Nav-Aids
 
Nav-Aids's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Winnipeg, MB, CANADA
Posts: 50
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

For my first 30 years I couldn't afford a scope either, even though at work I preferred to use them over a DMM. Now that I'm retiredI use to borrow my friends scope but, he wouldn’t let me use it if I was working on my ignitions. My first scope the Phillips one I have now was a necessity when I was having problems with an invention I was working on and after starting a small computer repair and custom circuitbusiness I don’t have time to guess at things. Don’t get me wrong, I still grab the DMM before I grab the scope but, there are times when a scope is the only way to solve a problem. Oh John about your transistors blowing remember it’s called R&D (Research & Destruction)

Ray

Nav-Aids is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 11:06 PM
  #664
nyemi
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: szarvas, HUNGARY
Posts: 133
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Hi Gompy
I ask.
What kind of performance (W) and efficiency, waiting for the circuit?

You looked at the data sheet?

nyemi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 11:43 PM
  #665
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Calculate >50 mJ with 90% efficency.
Between our old board and this one, the spark was much bigger.
The spark from the old board was about 6 a7 mm, the board with the mc34063 can make sparks of 15 a 20 mm.
It was faster charging, it didnt overload and we dont have any distroyed transistors anymore.
I dont say its the best, but I think it will be better.
Im working also with a other schematic on computer, but that only a simulation.
They use a part of this schematic for 12V to 220V convertors for computers.
I need power for the bike ignition, not for modeling building.

@Nyemi, its like a Ferrari...great car but if I need every day a mechanic to start the car, its better to buy a Fiat 500 who can drive me when I want.
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 11:53 PM
  #666
iura
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: tbilisigeorgia, GEORGIA
Posts: 58
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Hi.Gompy.
I remember this scheme it good, but it seems to me the phase of secondary winding is not correct: it must be revert.
iura is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 12:17 AM
  #667
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

The specs of the MC34063 say it's OK......but I gone finf out.

L1: transformer from Conrad Electronics,
order #:51 66 43-88
Pri: 25 turns 0.5mm wire
sec: 160 turns 0,15mm wire
IMPORTANT: Leave little space
between ferrit halves (piece of
paper on ONE Side)



BTW left the core for the model engine and right the core for my bike (~100W)
The schematic for the bike is also a little differend, it switch with FET's.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Jh15736.jpg
Views:	204
Size:	99.7 KB
ID:	1813227  
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 01:01 AM
  #668
nyemi
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: szarvas, HUNGARY
Posts: 133
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

4.8 to 6V input voltage will not reach 90% efficiency.
I counted.
50mJ*133Hz(8000RPM)=6650mW/0,9
efficiency=7388mW=7,4W
DIP8 case.
The circuit is hot.

I do not prefer flyback topology.
CDI power supply only of limited use.
If you are familiar with the operation. You know that.
No fast cease operation.
The secondary circuit will continue to work.
I try out a lot of circuitry.

I look at the circuit.
Snubber circuit, why not?
Flyback topology is required.
No FET, SCR, tranformátor primary coil.


nyemi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 01:27 AM
  #669
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Only at full rpm the power will be high.
Not allways, if the HV will be shut-off it consume no power.
Now we will be there where we want.
If I can load the capacior fast, the electronics don't use power.
I don't say it will work like the datasheet say, but if we don't try we will come nowhere.

Commercial CDI use a big batterie and a big generator.
They don't matter wat kind of power the CDI use, they have enough power into the car / bike.

The flyback John use is working, but it have the "transistor problem".
Thats why I try to find a other schematic who don't have this problem.
I can't use big components like you do for RC models, for the bike it's no problem.
Now we are back where we started, find the right schematic with less components and no "transistor problems".

No one of us is a proffesional of CDI-technologie, we all good willing guys without enough money to give the order to a specialist.

Most programmers don't have a connection with the rc models, they can program, they know how to program but they don't know why they program like we wish.
Jake is doing a good job, I can't do it, but tackle the problem will be something else.
Into the simulator everthing lookslike OK, but it don't work when we put it into the boards and use it.
No problem, but it takes time to solve the problem, same with the HV-board.......it takes time and the knowledge from all of us.

BTW, I've see your youtube movie and the sparkcoil you use lookslike a milkbottle.
Thats also why you get a spark like a tacer.
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 02:24 AM
  #670
nyemi
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: szarvas, HUNGARY
Posts: 133
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Thank you for your response.
The high efficiency of the push-pull number one.

Use the "ZVS" advantage.
Search for Push-Pull driver integrated circuit.(IR2153, TL494, SG3525,?)
Flyback topology forget.
I speak from experience.

nyemi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 02:44 AM
  #671
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

I think you know this schematic, thats wat I want to use for the bike (HV-board) ignition.
The timerboard doesn't matter, I want a good working timerboard and if it is from Jake, you or some one else.....so what, it have to work.

Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 06:33 AM
  #672
gr8flyer55
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg, PA
Posts: 806
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

Rob, just some information here, not saying you have to use it, but I've been running a Harley sportster with my ignition and timer board, using a 5 volt LM7805 voltage regulator and 2 of the small coils like I sent to you. It is working for 2 years now without any failures of any kind. I used the regulator to step down the system voltage from 12 volts to 5 volts only because of the 12f683 chip being a 5.5 volt max input voltage. Other than that, I am using the Original Harley hall sensor on the timing plate, locked at 28 degrees. I still need a better 4 stroke curve for better performance, but it does start and run great for the last 7,000 miles!

I used our old timer board that had the 16f628A chip, made a new board, and used the old software that Nyemi's converted to the 12f683 chip for us, and one of your old 4 stroke curves.

So it is possible! I even tried it on another one with points and the old mechanical advance and that one also has no problems in 2 years of daily riding. Easy starts and very reliable! Cost was about $8 to build, compared to buying a Harley replacement ignition for $110 !!!

John
gr8flyer55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 06:46 AM
  #673
gr8flyer55
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hamburg, PA
Posts: 806
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

More info here. With my hv board, engine not running, it draws only 65 mah current from the battery. At 7000 rpm, only 350 mah.
You could run your bike for over 2 hours on a small 1000 mah battery pack. Lol

John
gr8flyer55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 08:14 AM
  #674
Gompy
 
Gompy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alkmaar, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 404
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

We have "europian" problems with bikes for the last couple of years.
With my driverslicence a have allways run *big* bikes like Jawa, CZ, Norton and even a Harley from the USArmy out of the war 1945.
With the new rules I may only drive with the new law 25 kW and my bike have about 75 kW.
If the police stops me, I have a real problem, they take my bike and I have bringh him within a few weeks back to 25 kW.
Wat wil I do, I want to use the two tables from Jakes timer, one curve for 25 kW and one curve all open
When they stop me, I switch the motor off and the 25 kW curve will loaded when I start.
On the road I'll switch over to the all open curve with a kind of morse code.

So the HV-board must be reable and have enough power to make high rpm, ~15 - 18,000 rpm (it's a Aprilia and not a Harley)
The timerboard I need must have at least two tables, otherwise I can't switch between low and high power.
For the best performance I need 5 tables, I've 5 gears and if you want get out the best every gear needs his own curve.

I only try some schematics to find the best, your will be first becaus its ready to use.
The one I build with the MC34063 is only a test and maybe a better HV-board yor using now....who knows, we can only try to find out.
Nyemi is right when he say forget the flyback, I have also only problems from start 8 or 9 years ago.
Sometimes it works very well, no problems at all and sometimes I can't get the board only on and blowup the transistor.
Thats why I try to find a HV-board without the transistor with a steady frequentie so I know the rpm I can make and how fast I can load the capacitor.
Again, it's not I don't trust your HV-board but I need something allways work without problems......it takes 1 hour only to chamnge the candle
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Ay73388.jpg
Views:	251
Size:	73.9 KB
ID:	1813326   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pn35564.jpg
Views:	186
Size:	94.1 KB
ID:	1813327  
Gompy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 12:28 PM
  #675
jakestew
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Moscow, ID
Posts: 144
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: CDI gr8flyer55

I've run the CDI several times today with my software and it seems to be working great!

All I can figure out is that there might be some problem with specifying the memory address of the table and the pointer scheme I use for referencing them.

I've changed:
static const uint16_t AdvanceTable1[256] @ 0x03F0 =
To:
static const uint16_t AdvanceTable1[256] =

This seems to have fixed the problem as far as I can tell. It was always an intermittent problem for me though. Sometimes things worked, sometimes the LED would say on when the magnet was near the sensor. Only once did it actually keep sparking when the magnet was there. Since some curves seemed to work and some didn't I can only think that there was something going on with the memory and addressing. This is my first PIC project, so I'm not sure exactly how the memory paging works and it seems that the compiler is maybe not taking care of this properly for me.

I also noticed that the LED turns on very easily. Just touching the underside of the board is enough to turn it on.

In any case I'm working through the code and tuning it up. I'll try to have another version out soon. The spreadsheet hex generator will have to wait for later when I figure out the memory issue.
jakestew is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:29 AM.