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gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

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Old 08-07-2005, 12:38 PM
  #226
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Well, I'm going to give it a try. I'm doing a Katana 72" from GSP, with a Kioritz (hopped up) 23.6cc engine. Using glow will accomplish several things for me. This plane is borderline for a gasser, and the lighter weight will help, plus I won't have to cut a big hole for the spark plug in the cowl, and I can mount the throttle servo on the firewall without worrying about radio interference. I am considering making the glow power switchable to come on at 1/3 throttle.

I bought 2 gallons of E-85 for $1.79 a gallon, and mixed it with 2 gallons of regular gas. This, with my normal oil mix will make over 4 gallons and that will last me quite a long while.

What the heck, it's worth a try... That's why we are all here; to experiment and have fun.

AV8TOR
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Old 08-07-2005, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

But that is exactly my point...

To me it would be a lot less hassle to balance my plane for the little bit of extra weight either a magneto or elec-ign would add... but thats just me... I like to tinker around with different things too, but I wouldn't risk putting something so unreliable on one of my planes... If you really want to run glo plugs why not just use regular glo-fuel in them? expense?

If your in the hobby... spare no expense on your equipment... strive for the best...
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:59 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Well, for one thing, I love the sound of the gassers, and the big props they swing. Another is the cost factor. My .60 to .90 size glow motors were killing me in fuel costs. Lastly, is the joy of converting these engines and watching the look on peoples faces when you tell them where the engine came from and what it cost. Trying them on glow is just one more facet of the game...

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Old 08-07-2005, 04:43 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ace-Maker
But that is exactly my point...
Kind of - I don't see it

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ace-Maker
To me it would be a lot less hassle to balance my plane for the little bit of extra weight either a magneto or elec-ign would add... but thats just me...
Or you may try to think bigger and tor that extra weight use bigger engine. In example somewhere around 40cc or 35cc on glow might weight the same as 25 with magneto. Extra power never hurts as long as you use throttle stick instead 'throttle switch'

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ace-Maker
I wouldn't risk putting something so unreliable on one of my planes...
I didn't find glow ignition on gas engine any less reliable than ignition-gas.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ace-Maker
If you really want to run glo plugs why not just use regular glo-fuel in them? expense?
The main reason is the same, why we got a gas engine in the first place. Gas is just cool. As long as the plane carrys on-board glow battery you work with this engine exactly the same field equipment as electronic ignition engine: Fuel the plane, flip the switch and flip the prop.

And the last thing is that the engine (my 25cc ) costs 25 dollars, when any decent size glow almost 10 times more.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ace-Maker
If your in the hobby... spare no expense on your equipment... strive for the best...
If you are Bill Gates, not problem for spending a couple hundred dollars. But if you work for living, then the hobby gets what's left.[&:]

I would rather say, enjoy your hobby, not kill yourself with it.

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Old 08-07-2005, 06:22 PM
  #230
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Quote:
ORIGINAL: RysiuM
Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ace-Maker
I wouldn't risk putting something so unreliable on one of my planes...
I didn't find glow ignition on gas engine any less reliable than ignition-gas.
Yes if your running glo-fuel... but trying to come up with some sort of gas/ethanol mix is where the unreliability comes from (you would need to find the perfect mix)... and putting a battery onboard to keep the glo powered all the time will leave you in a situation where if the glo plug burned up you could be deadsticking it...

Sorry if I sound patronistic... but i've had nothing but trouble out of glo engines (sort of a vendeta..LOL) ... thats why I fly gassers... sides I like em BIG!
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Old 08-07-2005, 10:18 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

I agree with the several good reasons to run a Glow gas mix. If you are to be woried about your plane crashing if the engine quits....you better not fly at all. Or learn what to do if the engine does quit. Capt,n
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Old 08-07-2005, 11:09 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Well put! I had the gasser, with electronic ignition, in my Ultra Lite Stick 120 quit on me one time while I was just entering a hammerhead stall turn. She fell straight backwards and did a whip stall instead, and when I had airspeed I pulled out and landed it. No damage.

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Old 08-08-2005, 07:18 AM
  #233
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

"Is all of this really worth all of the trouble guys? "

YES !!

[:-]
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Old 08-08-2005, 02:55 PM
  #234
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

I have flown my FeatherLite 25 on 50/50 gasoline/methanol for quite some time now and I still haven't had an engine quit yet!!! this mixture is very reliable specially if you add some NITRO it works much better and give's it an extra punch to the engine, but the real essence of this is to thinker and experiment and getting the satisfaction that you really did accomplish something you were after, besides the benefit of making that engine lighter without having to spend a lot of money to do so and to keep the fuel economy on a reasonably budget specially when you are flying big planes the fuel comsumptiom gets very high on glow fuel alone!!!.
Using 50/50 gasoline/methanol fuel mixture you don't need to have an on-board ignition system at any time but if you are worried about not having enough glow temp you could use it only on idle by some means of your throtle servo(activate only on idle via a switch)
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:57 AM
  #235
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Hi Guys, I have been following this thread for a while and want to commend all the great work. There was some consern voiced about the reliability of the glow plug and battery life. I have been experimenting with this method for about a year and have added a diode in series with the battery to limit the current to the plug. As previously stated, the plug does not need to glow white hot to maintain combustion. I use a bypass switch across the diode for starting. This has allowed me to use FAI fuel in all of my glo powered planes including my four strokers. As you all may already know FAI fuel has no nitro. The diode may work well also for this application. There is another device manufactured by Nelson that acts as a smart glo driver. It is a little expensice but works great. It cost around 60 bucks but limits the amount of power to the plug. I think it actually reads the resistance of the plug and applies current as needed extending the battery and plug life. $60 is a little expensive and I like the cheap diode better. [8D]
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:24 PM
  #236
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

There is a guy in our club who makes and sells on board glows for $24.00.
They are about the size of 1 1/2 postage stamps and work well.

They "Y" into your throttle and are totally programable

You can reach him at speedcontrol@comcast.net

Here is a web address www.anderson-aurand.com

This may ease the cost crunch for some.
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Old 08-15-2005, 10:43 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

I am trying my hand at this also. I have several Echo 21cc and several Homie 25cc and a Homie 30cc to try it on. I just got the Echo going when it was dark. I am using;
10 oz. 31% methanol
18 oz. 56% gas
2 oz. Klotz KL 100 6%
2 oz. Acetone 6%
in a quart.
I still have the pull rope on it and it starts right up. Never tried by hand yet. I didn't work with it long enough to say any thing for sure but it seems to have an acceleration problem. Maybe a little more tuning? It also would run for a few seconds then bog down some and then come back. Did this when it was lean or rich, at full throttle. Had to find that perfect spot to prevent it. Had to keep the glow driver on. As soon as the meter dropped out of the green rpm's dropped. Going above the green didn't help. Going to use up this batch of fuel then try some with equal mounts of gas and methanol. Then maybe add some either. It still has the original small weedie carb on it. Am using a APC 16x8. Any body got any recent news on their projects? How about those of you that run them for some time now. Are you having any gasket/ diaphram swelling trouble? How's the fuel lines holding up?
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Old 08-16-2005, 10:11 AM
  #238
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Using a APC 16x8 I got this;
1700 idle-good 5800 wot transition very bad, almost non existent glow always on, wouldn't run with out it.

Switched to 50% methanol/ 50% gas, 6% on lube and acetone yet. Too much lube I know, but it shouldn't be a problem when we use as high as 20% in them. Idle about the same, wot 6000. Transition better but still bad.

Went to a 14x8 wood prop. Idle about the same. wot 6800, transition better yet, but not any where's good enough.
Will run at wot with out glow driver, but not at idle. wot lost 500 with glow driver off.
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Old 08-16-2005, 11:24 AM
  #239
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Guesses...

I don't think anyone else here is using the acetone. Could that be a problem?

Have you tried a different glow plug?

Maybe your engine has lower compression and will need some nitro?

Carb settings? Carb can't flow enough fuel without mods?

Did you run and verify this engine with normal ignition first? Run ok?

Good luck, and let us know,
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Old 08-16-2005, 11:28 AM
  #240
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Addendum, a glow engine that drops rpms with the glow power off usually needs either a hotter plug, or more nitro, (or more compression).

I would also suggest a more normal (for these engines) oil percentage... Almost 3 times the normal oil may be interfering with the volatility of the gasoline in this case.

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Old 08-16-2005, 11:44 AM
  #241
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition


Quote:
ORIGINAL: av8tor1977
Addendum, a glow engine that drops rpms with the glow power off usually needs either a hotter plug, or more nitro, (or more compression).
I would second that. With old beaten up glow plug I got drop rpm by about 500 when cutting off the power. However with the new OS plug the engine run smooth without battery connected.

I would like to see if I can get a better power with some nitro added. Is it safe? How much? How nitro would act on the ignition timing?

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Old 08-16-2005, 12:47 PM
  #242
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Made a new batch of fuel. Equal amounts of gas and methanol, KL 100 at a 32 to 1 ratio, and 10% either. Spray the can into the mixture with a submerged tube style. Ran better lost about 100 rpm but it's 20 degrees warmer now also. Better acceleration. Then it started to act up, like it wasn't getting fuel. Checked the glow plug, looked suspicious. Put it back on mag and ran fine, much better acceleration also. About 7200 wot but not smooth, surged. Put on the 16x8 again and that problem went away. Was over speeding the carb I suspect. It's still the little weedie carb. Would idle down to 1200, 1400 reliably. Plug I think was one that came with a Saito a couple years ago. They were never the best. Also I was over powering it occasionaly to see if it helped, may have damaged it. One thing I did see about that plug was that it never glowed the very outer coil of the element. Closest to the combustion chamber, maybe another problem? My adapter I built puts the end of the glow plug even with it. Is that ok? Starting to look promising. I need to dig thru my pile of carbs for something bigger.
Do you think the castor in the Klotz 100 is a problem? I also have some KL 200 total synthetic and their R 50.
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Old 08-16-2005, 02:50 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Eagle Flyer
Put it back on mag and ran fine, much better acceleration also.
Am I reading you right - you run 50-50 gas-mathanol with magneto? If so, how does it compare to regular gas? I like this combination. I may get better power on my weede without messing up wit the carb.

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Old 08-16-2005, 07:54 PM
  #244
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Ok; I went to a bigger carb, don't know the size.
With stock weedie muffler on glow, constant drive
MA Classic 16x8 6300 Zinger 16x8 5800 APC 16x8 6000 MA 14x6 8??? can't read my writing
Removed some of the muffler's restrictions and got the following
MA Classic 16x8 6850 Zinger, no test APC 16x8 6900 MA 14x6 8800
Then put it back on mag with the same gas/alcohol mix
MA Classic 16x8 7050 MA 14x6 8800
Then put it on regular gas mix and mag. Normal setup.
MA Classic 16x8 7000 Zinger 16x8 6350 APC 16x8 7050 MA 14x6 8500

Getting a good transition is a problem. I can get it to do it but the adjustments have to be JUST RIGHT. And I have to open it a little slower. I can slow down the throttle speed on my radio. Always do it on most gassers. It lets me keep from having to set the low screw so rich to get it to transition that it blubbles at mid range. And the slowed servo gives the same response as the normal adjustments with the normal lag. Once inn a while I find an engine that doesn't have this problem, but most do by my experience.
And with the glow mix I end up with the low side opened way up and the high side closed down to get it to run it's best. Guess that's what you get for trying to run alcohol thru a gas carb.

Oh and yes this engine runs just fine on a regular gas mix and the compresion checked 125psi hot, 135psi cold.
For what it's worth the mag timing checked 25 BTDC



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Old 08-16-2005, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Ok, sounding better... When I mentioned compression, I meant compression ratio. But your compression reading indicates that your ring seal is probably in pretty good shape. Glow plug at the end of the adapter, in much the same postion as the electrode would be in a spark plug sounds right. I would try a fresh new plug to start, and preferably a hot one like for a four stroke. As far as ignition timing, that's the trick. Spark ignition "goes off" when you set it to; glow ignition "goes off" when it is ready to due to the heat of compression and the catalytic reaction between the alcohol and the platinum in the glow plug. That's why I suggest a hotter plug. It will effectively "advance" the ignition timing of your glow setup, and may help with the problems you describe.

Good luck and keep after it,
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Old 08-16-2005, 10:04 PM
  #246
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

Ran a couple different 4 stroke plugs. Seemeed the same. What I did find was that if I kept the glow drive higher than the green on the meter, about 4 amperes, it worked a lot better. Green quits about at 3.5. And if i went to 4.5 it was better still. The plug jut isn't hot enough. I burnt up an idle bar plug doing it. Didn't respond any different for what it's worth. Does any one make a glow plug that will take a lot more juice than normal?
And I never did get it to work with out constsnt drive, not good enough any way.
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Old 08-17-2005, 12:41 AM
  #247
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Eagle Flyer
What I did find was that if I kept the glow drive higher than the green on the meter, about 4 amperes, it worked a lot better. Green quits about at 3.5. And if i went to 4.5 it was better still.
That's weired. I mean my OS F takes only 2.2A from 1.2 NiMh. It is between 1V and 1.2V. You run your plug much hotter - it must be glowing like a light bulb.

I'm affraid that the 'timing' for glow is different on each type of engine. I haven't play with different engines - just Poulan 25cc (from weed whacker) and this one seems to be runing great. I mean for what the engine is worth.
Poulan 25 doesn't make a huge power and compared to other engines of that size - it is rather on the low end. In example my MVVS 26cc turns APC 18x6W at 8k rm, while Poulan 25 runs APC 17x6 (smaller prop) at 7400rpm. But at least Poulan makes the same power on glow as on ignition.
I believe it is possible to tweak Poulan 25 for more power (bigger ports and carb, changing timing and so) but it may loose it's ability to run on glow plug.

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Old 08-17-2005, 02:10 AM
  #248
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

It sounds to me like you could use some more compression.

Or you could use " A lot " of nitro to enhance the combustion.
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Old 08-17-2005, 07:51 AM
  #249
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

I'm using the adjustable driver on my field box. Just reading the numbers on the scale. I don't have nitro, no plans to buy any. I have been using the either idea and find the more I use the better it gets. No more rpm, just runs better. The glow keeps it lit better and it accelerates better.
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Old 08-17-2005, 08:42 PM
  #250
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Default RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

"DO NOT USE ACETONE" It swells the carb components and it makes the engine boggle tried it and didn't like it. just stick to the methanol/gasoline blend but if you can add Nitromethane it would make your effort worth a lot, you will see how well it improves performance, keep up the work we are learning a lot.
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