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  1. #51
    antslake's Avatar
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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Thank you squid, thats a great idea.

    To clarify about using water in alcohol and gasoline:

    First off, the engine that got on drop of water in it and didn't run was because most gas filters will not pass water through them. So the water blocked the gas the same way a piece of dirt would. They did use water injection on planes and cars to help reduce detonation. The injection system was separate from the fuel delivery system.
    Gas and water do not mix at all. They can be sprayed into the engine separately.
    If you decrease detonation in a high compression engine, you can then bump up the timing, and make more full throttle power. That is the purpose of doing that. More power in a warbird means you can climb higher and get away from the enemy, and more power in a car means you can lower you 1/4 e.t.'s. Too much water is needed to make it practical for everyday use.

    Second, the article ion the magazine about adding water to glow fuel, was to dispell the myth of "once glow fuel gets water in it, it is no good" That test was made with 15% nitro I believe. You might not get the same results with straight up menthanol. For some reason he got more rpm's with 20% water, probably because the engine was running cooler. If the water was not mixed perfectly even, then I would suspect that you would have some "flame outs" on the glow plug. Maybe all his engine needed was a cooler glow plug to achieve the same results. It was also an old engine, that may have recieve compression increase from the water? That one test was not the end all to water in your menthanol. There is more to that story I am sure.
    I'd be willing to bet that most people would not like to take that chance with there $1000 planes.
    Greenwood Lake Silent Flyers

  2. #52
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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Water has a greater "surface tension" than gasoline. If it gets into, or "across" a jet, it will plug the jet because it has a greater surface tension and often cannot be drawn through the jet like gasoline. This is what can happen if water gets into gasoline, especially in our model engines, (or their original applications like weedeaters, snowblowers, etc.) with their small jets. Alcohol is hygroscopic. That means it will absorb moisture, or water, out of the air or a mixture. You can often add a small amount of alcohol to gasoline in a four-stroke engine like in a car, and it will absorb the water and allow it to pass through and be burned. However, if you have alcohol in your gasoline, it can absorb water, and that will not mix with the oil in our two stroke gas/oil mixtures and can cause big problems. All glow fuel has alcohol in it, and it will absorb moisture if you leave your can or jug open, especially in humid climates/areas. I do not know about oil/water/alcohol mixing in glow fuels, but I would suspect it could be very problematic as well. We have had a lot of problems and engine failures in ultralight aviation with alcohol in the gasoline, and all the engine manufacturers specifically warn against using gasoline with alcohol in it for this reason.

    As we have already mentioned, alcohol, or alcohol/water injection is a completely different matter. It is a different application for a different reason.

    Hope this helps clear things up,
    AV8TOR
    If it is not SCARY, it is NO WHERE NEAR powerful enough!!
    All R/C planes have expiration dates---> It's just not printed on them anywhere!

  3. #53

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Hi guys I am a new member and I was following this glow ignition with hope that I could get rid of that heavy flywheel,magnets and electronic parts that maybe we don't need, but all of a sudden it came to a halt. What happened to everyone? I was thinking about E85 because it is 85% ethanol and here in Iowa it cost less than regular. I think it will give us more RPM and a better idle.

  4. #54

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Hi guys, sorry I haven't been in contact but you know the holidays?.
    I also have'nt had a chance to try my plan because of the weather we are having here, specially in the weekends, it's like a curse it does'nt rain and is sun-shiny during the week but when Friday gets here guess what? exactly it rains!!!. but I am not giving up on this project I still have hope that something good can be accomplished and will waiti for a brake from the weather to continue with it. Until then I will keep posted and see if anybody else has experimented with their engines or configurations; Until then, Happy Trails CONVERTS.
    By the way if we don't get in touch before Christmas; You all have a MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A BAG FULL OF R/C GOODIES.
    Sincerely your buddy:
    Bill Pomplun alias AERO NUT

  5. #55

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    What brand of spark plug did you use? When I took the ceramic and the Electrode out of the spark plug that was in my Ryobi engine I ended up with a 3/8" opening which is way to big for a glow plug that is 1/4"X 32 . Your help On this well be appreciated.

    Merry Christmas

    aeronaut-9

  6. #56

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    CH Electronics has a 14mm to 1/4x32 adapter for $9.95.
    TKG
    Too much power is just about right.

  7. #57
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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    If you are handy and careful, you can make an adapter out of a spark plug. Weld a plate over the end of the spark plug shell that you gutted, and drill and tap it for the glow plug. You have to be careful not to mess up the spark plug shell threads, and you have to check for piston clearance to the glow plug when you're done. The plate will need to be recessed into the spark plug shell; not just welded over the end.

    Good luck, and can't wait to hear your results,
    AV8TOR
    If it is not SCARY, it is NO WHERE NEAR powerful enough!!
    All R/C planes have expiration dates---> It's just not printed on them anywhere!

  8. #58

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    aeronaut-9, Call Pete from www.wackerengines.com ,352 628 5810. I got the opportunity to test his prototypes and he's got just what you need. He's selling them for $12 shipped and he's easy to contact by phone even. Seems to like the phone better than e-mail, gotta like that. Piper
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    Mike E. vintagehobbies1 on E-Bay

  9. #59

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    On the ww2 birds, they could lean out the mixture with water injection for combat power. Alcohol was added to the water so it wouldn't freeze at high altitude.
    Gord
    Dreamed I was a muffler. Woke up exhausted.

  10. #60
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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    A reprint of my post from above regarding water injection...

    But I do know a little about water injection. The water, or water/alcohol injection, was first used I believe, on the World War Two fighters. It is used to combat detonation in engines with high compression ratios and/or being run with a gasoline of lesser quality octane rating than needed. You are right, it was offered and used for car engines for a time as well. The older cars were designed with higher compression ratios, and when the fuel quality started declining in the beginning of the "smog years", the water injection systems would sometimes help the situation.

    Detonation is generally more of a problem in, as I said, high compression engines, and also in engines with large bores. Our little weedie engines have both small bores, and low compression ratios, so detonation is not a problem, even with today's crappy gasoline. Water &/or water/alcohol injection would probably be a waste of time and gain nothing. One interesting side note however, is that the engines run with the injection showed remarkably clean combustion chambers and piston tops, with virtually no carbon build up.

    It isn't done to lean out the mixture, leaning the mixture would make the detonation problem worse.
    AV8TOR
    If it is not SCARY, it is NO WHERE NEAR powerful enough!!
    All R/C planes have expiration dates---> It's just not printed on them anywhere!

  11. #61

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Hey aeronut-9 sorry I didn't reply earlier but it was the holidays you know!
    on the plug adapter issue, what my friend did once he stripped the hole thing he drilled the top with a 1/2 inch bit so he could insert the glo plug deep enough to be level with the bottom part of the adapter, then as far as the 3/8 hole he plugged with 3/8 aluminum stock bar then proceeded to drill the hole for the 1/4 x 32 tap that is required for the glo plug.
    Now that the holidays obligation are over (and the wife is happy) I will start working on my project a.s.a.p. and will keep you posted with my results if you do some experimenting please let us know I am eager to find out of any results if any out there, and like I said before it would bring us some savings in weight (about a pound) on these engines.

  12. #62
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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    well I'm coming from a complete different aspect to this. I race 1/5 scale r/c cars that most use zenoah 23cc two strokes well being the tinkerer that I'am I would like to try a four stroke . most people don't want to even give them the time of day because of the power to size and weight ratio. I've been following people playing with the honda gx 31 for aiplanes and boat conversions with people having just average success. there is one thing I have'nt seen people try and that is would there be a major jump in performance if the motor was switched to run on high nitro glow fuel? what do you folks think?
    To be blinding or invisible, nothing in between.

  13. #63

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Hi aeronaut-9,
    On the glo plug adapter question that you made I forgot to say that the 3/8 inch hole that is left once you brake the ceramic part was pluged with a 3/8 inch aluminum solid rod using a bench press or vice, then he proceeded to drill and tap for 1/4 32 for the glow plug, sorry for the omision on my part.
    Have you tried to run on glow plug and gasoline yet?

  14. #64
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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    I have an old Super Tigre S2000 that was aquired as part of a trade. It has what appears to be a gas carb (says "walbro" on it, and guys in my club say it is a gas carb), as well as a nipple and tube coming out of the crankcase backplate. There is no ignition system or muffler with the engine. Can anyone help me identify this and tell me what it would take to get it going? I have 5 year's experience with glow and 5 seconds experience with gas.

    Would it be cheaper to just get a glow carb for it? Since it's a larger displacement engine, I know it will be expensive to operate on glow fuel.

    Any help would be much appreciated. I can send photos if needed for identification.
    Speed without control is........well......SPEED!

  15. #65

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Hey convert! doe's your engine have a regular glo plug head? if so try the arrengment that I am experimenting with and that is use 87or 91 octane gasoline with 2 stroke engine oil at a 40:1 ratio have an O.S four stroke glo plug and two 1.2 volts AA in series (2.4 volts) conected to the plug, If you read this forum you will find a lot of information regarding this subject. As far as the engine that you have is definetily a gas conversion set up like the one that CH ignitions offer for Supertigre Engines but who ever traded you the engine kept the electronic ignition set up. you can visit the CH gnition web page and look at their conversion to see what I mean.
    So try it with the glo plug/Gasoline set and let me know your results I realy need feed back on this project to keep me motivated

  16. #66

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    RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    The tiger won't live with a 40/1 oil mix. It will require 10/1 mix and so will most of the "glow" conversions.
    This is because of the bushed rod. Most 40/1 mix engines have needle bearings on the rod.
    TKG
    Too much power is just about right.

  17. #67

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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    I remember when they first came out with 40/1 snowmobile. I can't remember wether it was Hirth or Sachs that had a bronze bushing in the wristpin end of the rod. On 40/1 mix every one siezed up before the end of the first tank of gas.
    Gord
    Dreamed I was a muffler. Woke up exhausted.

  18. #68

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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    I agree with the observation on the bronze bushing requiring a lower oil ratio, but I do believe that supertigre engines in the higher displacement have a needle tipe bearings on the con rod that is why I was suggesting the 40:1 ratio but I might be wrong, check what tipe of bearings your engine comes with.

  19. #69
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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    No SuperTigre ever had a needle bearing on either end of the rod..Some aftermarket rods were sold with a needle bearing on the bottom..The crank surface is too soft for a needle bearing..It only works for a while....
    Lower number, HIGHER oil content...
    RC Ignition

  20. #70

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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Well converts I have some good news for you, I finally got to work with my project and got some interesting results; First of all let me tell you that I went directly to the head of the snake and tried the gasoline/ether/methanol/oil combination and compared it against the straight gas/oil mixture and got some interesting results.
    Engine Ryobi 31 cc, Prop APC 16x8, gasoline 87 octane 50:1 oil mix ratio, at sea level. For glo plug version an O.S. 4 stroke plug was used.
    Results:

    1.- gasoline/oil with magnetic coil/flywheel ignition = 8500 rpm's, 2.- gasoline/oil with glo plug/2.4 battery volt constant current = 8400 rpm's and good idle at 2200 rpms.
    3.- same combination as 2 but once started the battery was removed = 8300 rpm's, rough idle and stoped. 4.- gasoline/oil 75%, methanol 20%, ether 5%, magnetic coil/flywheel ignition = 9200 rpm's real smooth idle at 1800 rpms and smooth throttle transition.
    5.- same combination as 4 but glo plug/2.4 volt constant current = 9200 rpms, smooth idle and throttle transition at 1800 rpms
    6.- same combination as 5 but once started the battery was removed = 9100 rpms and good idle like a glo engine, smooth throttle transition at 2000 rpms
    7.- gasoline/oil 65%, methanol 30%, ether 5%, with glo plug/2.4 volt battery constant current = 9200 rpm's, smooth idle and throttle transition at 1800 rpms.
    OBSERVATIONS: When mixing the Gasoline/oil mix with the methanol you could see two layers of non mixing solutions but when the ether was added it became completely miscible(fully mixed) homogeneus solution. When starting the engine with the gas/oil, methanol,ether mixtures the engine would start very easy (with regular electric starter) but some times I would feel a slight kick back but no big deal.
    CONCLUSIONS: So far this experiment indicates that the glo plug system can be used instead of the very heavy coil/flywheel system saving us this way alot of weight and giving us the fuel economy and low engine cost that we are all looking for, although the use of ether complicates a little bit the manufacturing of the desired fuel but I think we can find a way to solve this matter. ANY IDEAS ANYBODY ?.
    I Will keep on experimenting on this issue but I hope that anybody can come with some comparisons and results that can validate this experiment.
    P.S. I also tried a 10% ether combination but the result wheren't better than the 5% ether combo.

  21. #71
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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Wow, good work and thanks for sharing the results! Your results are very interesting. A couple of comments...

    What type of oil were you using? I was just reading recently that some oils mix better with methanol than others.

    Also, where did you get your ether?

    Any possiblity of running one more test and substituting acetone for the ether? Acetone is much more readily available, and might make a more stable mixture to have around. I'm thinking the volatile ether would evaporate if you weren't very careful with your fuel cans! You might have to use 10% instead of the 5% you used with ether, but it would be interesting to find out. Acetone instead of ether might eliminate the "kickback" that you experienced as well.

    Thanks again,
    AV8T0R
    If it is not SCARY, it is NO WHERE NEAR powerful enough!!
    All R/C planes have expiration dates---> It's just not printed on them anywhere!

  22. #72
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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    I forgot; if you intend to keep running the setup you have, you might go to a larger prop, as 9000+ is pushing it a bit for the Ryobi I would say.

    Take care,
    AV8TOR
    If it is not SCARY, it is NO WHERE NEAR powerful enough!!
    All R/C planes have expiration dates---> It's just not printed on them anywhere!

  23. #73
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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Unless you love to tinker, it's a lotta work for nothing, why not just buy methanol and mix with 100-1 Amsoil ?
    Gassers run very well on methanol and a glow plug....
    A Zenoah 445 twin will turn 11,000 rpm with a small prop and methanol..
    Been there, testing for a race plane...I was running a 445 twin modified for racing, using a 15-8 prop to let it turn the same on the ground as it does in the air..Got 11,000 rpm..
    Took a stock 445, put the methanol carb and glow plugs in it, got 11,000 rpm...
    Not sure how much nitro was in the fuel it was about 4 years old....
    Gassers have roller bearings, 100-1 Amsoil is all they need....
    Glow plugs last indefinitely in a gasser, our 289cc racer ran the same plugs for 2 racing seasons, running 20+ % nitro....
    Last methanol I bought was no more expensive than gas....
    RC Ignition

  24. #74

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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Thanks for your comments guys, the reason I don't go to the pure methanol configuration is because the rate consumption is twice as much as the rate of gasoline so I would still have to put a bigger tank on my plane (right now I have a 16 oz. tank) let say a 32 oz tank in order to fly the same amount of time as I am flying right now (20-25 min) and I would also have to tinker with the carburetor in order to obtain the flow rate needed for the methanol config. or would have to find carb like the one the Zenoah glo model engine.
    av8tor1977 the oil I am currently using is the mobil 1 MX2T which is a fully synthetic oil for motorcycles and like I said it mixed well with the methanol/ether combination but I would like to find some amsoil to use a higher gas/oil mix ratio and see what it happens. I also made a run with 10 % ether and noticed no change at all, I would make a run but with lower ether and see how it behaves but as you can see even if you used the magneto configuration you would benefit from this mixture to gain more rpms, I want to do the same run again using a 18x6 APC prop once I have the chance to go and buy one. so I will keep everybody thats interested posted on the results obtained. The ether I have I had it for quite some time, like I mentioned before I am a chemist and some time ago I was doing some research work that had to use the stuff so I kept the remnant figuring that I might have some use for it in the future (like starting my 72 Chrysler).
    I've already did the gasoline/methanol/acetone run although it made some improvements on the idle it could not compare with the results obtained with the ether combo but I will make more tests and see what I can come up with.

  25. #75

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    RE: RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition

    Klotz KL 100 and KL 200 will mix with gas or methanol. It may help the gas/methanol mix to stay togather.
    TKG
    Too much power is just about right.


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