cu. in.

Fish,

Here is the E85 refueling link:

http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php

Bruce

captinjohn

Will 91% Isopropyl Alcohol work? It says flammable on the bottle. It comes in pints and quarts...quite cheap. Can anyone chime in here and explain more about the different kinds of Alcohol and what they are made from. I have heard the term wood alcohol. Is it about the same as mentanol? Thanks Capt,n

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

Captinjohn,

The three most common types of alcohols available are methyl, ethyl and propyl alcohols. Methyl alcohol (methanol, wood alcohol) is a methyl group( carbon atom with three hydrogen atoms and a hydroxyl group attached. A hydroxyl group consists of an oxygen atom with a hydeogen atom attached. The terms methyl, ethyl, propyl,etc. designate the number of carbon atoms which are present. Methyl has one carbon atom, ethyl has two, propyl has three, butyl has four. As the number of carbon atoms change, the physical and chemical characteristics change. If used as a fuel, as the number of carbon atoms increase, the amount of air (oxygen) needed for combustion increases. For example, methyl alcohol has a fuel to air ratio of about 1 to 6. For reference, the ratio for gasoline is approximately 1 to 14. Ethyl alcohol has a ratio of approximately 1 to 9 and propyl alcohol about 1 to 12.

Methanol is generally obtained via synthesis using methane and carbon monoxide. Ethyl can be synthesized, but the majority is obtained by fermentation. Propyl alcohol is generally aobained by chemical synthesis. The difference between propyl and isopropyl is determined by where the hydroxyl group is attached. If it is on the end of the carbon chain it is propyl. If it is attached to the middle of the carbon chain it is isopropy. However the chemical and physical characteristics are essentially the same.

As far as using isopropyl alcohol for glow fuel, it probably would work, but remember that the other 9% in regular rubbing alcohol is water.

Of all the alcohols, methanol is the cheapest to manufacture.

Rupurt

Wood alcohol is methanol although it is no longer made from wood, it is now made from methane and high temp steam(the watery kind) over various different catalysts. Methanol is the simplest alcohol only has one carbon atom, which as far as i know is the reason for its relatively low energy density.

captinjohn

WVARN & Rupurt: Thanks for the details on Alcohol types. Now maybe us engine freaks can figure out more on a good gas Alky mixture for Glow use. I think this may be worth doing. The right mix..Glow Plug type..and onboard glow if needed so there is no flame-outs. Keep this thread going. You guys that have done this new fuel mix....try different glow plugs also. Good Going.....Capt,n

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

Nice dissertation on alcohol, and thank you.

The Propyl alcohol, needing a stoichiometric mixture closer to that of gasoline then, would give comparable "gas mileage", and be less likely to need carb mods for use. The water in the rubbing alcohol would probably not be a problem in a conventionally oiled four stroke engine, but would be problematic for a two stroke in that it won't mix with the oil in the fuel/oil mixture. So, what would be a source for pure Propyl or Butyl alcohol?

Side note: I've often poured some rubbing alcohol in lawn mower gas tanks that have sat for a season to help clean out the carb and burn up any water in the system. Works great.

av8tor

captinjohn

I have some klotz oil. I am going to try and mix it with the 91% Isopropyl Alcohol and see what happens. Let you know later. Capt,n

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

When you start thinking about the heavier molecular weight alcohols, the price in small quantaties (i.e. 5 gal) is quite prohibitive.Think about this:

gasoline -- $2.00 to $2.50 per gal
methanol -- $2.85 to $5.00 per gal depending on the source
ethanol (denatured) -- $6.50 to $8.00 depending on the source.
Isopropyl alcohol, anhydrous -- $41.55 per liter
n-butyl alcohol, anhydrous -- $55.00 per gallon

The most cost efficient fuel would be a blend of gasoline and methanol. If you keep the methanol between 25%and 35% you won't have any metering problems with a standard gasoline jetted Walbro. The addition of 5% nitro would help also, but isn't an absolute necessity. If you are going to run this in a conventional glow carb you will have to modify the needle to avoid the sensitive adjustments. Or, you could use a Super Tiger carb, they have a long needle taper.

Incidentially, Nitro can be obtained from a local speed shop for $75/ 2.5 gal container.

FenceMagnet

My Feedback: (2)

"Incidentially, Nitro can be obtained from a local speed shop for $75/ 2.5 gal container."

hmmmm..... that's $75 for 50 gal of fuel at 5%, or only another $1.50 for each gallon....

[:-]

RingWinger

Hello WVarn1957

Thanks for the deals of the carbon chemisty, perhaps you can help explain why Methanol does not mix well with gasoline. Please read my test results below.

Fuel test: Gas / stove fuel / methanol results

Hello experimenters. I recently purchased two gallons of Methanol for my local fuel supplier ($2.60 per gallon). I tried to mix it with both pump gas, and Coleman and Ozark camping fuel.

Please read: Methanol does not mix with gas/stove fuel.

I was able to get the Methanol to go into solution with the addition of approximately 15% Acetone, or 3% diethyl ether, (starting fluid, which is mixture of heptane and diethyl ether). When the correct amount of either the acetone or ether is added you will see the mixture turn crystal clear.

The BAD NEWS: It will swell up you carb diaphragms/pump within just a few minutes of contact with the fuel. I made a glow plug adapter out of an of sparkplug and the engine will ran for about 1 minute before my diaphragm swelled up and shut the engine down. I was able to flush out the mixture and after about 2 hours the diaphragm recovered and I could run the engine on normal fuel (pump gas or stove fuel only).

I would not recommend anyone try this experiment unless you like to replace carb diaphragms or even fuel lines that normally will hold up to gas. In my case the fuel lines swelled up as well. The same fuel lines that had gas in them for months almost instantly swelled up then they turned hard as rocks a few days later. I don’t know if my carb works now after a few weeks, it maybe hard as well.

I think that gasoline and E85 will work, since ethanol will mix with gasoline/stove fuel. E85 is blended to mix with gas. As for using nitro, with a mixture of gasoline/E85, you must consider that you now will have some nitric acid introduced into your combustion chamber after burning the nitro. Any a sensible response to nitric acid would be to use an After-run oil. What a pain in the empennage this whole process has now become, you are back to square one.

For my time and money the purchase of a CH ignition system or plain old magneto ignition far exceeds all the hassle of mixing these fuel, make the glow adapter, flushing the nitric acid off the steel ball bearings on the crank etc.

I would like to hear if anyone else has tried to run gas/methanol, gas/E85. I read a lot of discussion on how great this concept sounds, but until you go to the trouble of trying these combination you don’t realize how much time you have wasted trying to save 4 or 5 ozs of weight.

I’m would have given gas/E85 a try, but in Eugene Or we don’t have the air pollution required to force the sale of alternative gasoline’s, otherwise I would also have test run E-85.

I don’t want to sound too negative, but gas and methanol just don’t mix. Ethanol will mix with gas. So folks give E-85 a try with and without nitro, and post the results.

Poppy Parrot

Rupurt

Methanol is a polar solvent like water, but not as polar. Petrol is mostly non-polar like oil. This has to do with electrons, protons and there structure.

RingWinger

Rubert,

I believe that most alcohols have a hydroxyl group (OH) that allow for bonding to polar groups of molecules (ie water), other parts of the molecule have more non- polar region for bonding with non-polar molecules like gasoline. This is an oversimplification, but I believe ethanol has a bonding region that will attach (hold) more non-polar molecules, thus it will mix well with gasoline.

I would like a to know if anyone out there can detail what is really going on with the difference between Methanol and Ethanol as far this bonding and mixing is concerned.

I think the last time I check up on common alcohols I found a listing of over 150 to choose from that are in common use in industry. This can become a very complex discussion, but for our use it would be fine to just understand Methanol and Ethanol.

Regards,

Poppy Parrot

captinjohn

RingWinger: I do not think the carb news is that bad. Just use a normal big glow engine carb. It will tune more easy ....maybe. Also no diaphrames to go bad. As far as afterun oil is concerned....its best to use it on any 2 cycle glow engine. Afterun oil keeps your rings free and carbon soft so it will blow out on start up. Been doing it for over 12 years. Now for you guys that are experimenting....try 2 glow plugs in same head. Like Satio does. One cool and one hotter. It gives a better transition. Thanks Capt,n

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

I have mixed gasoline, methanol and Klotz for test runs in a OS 60FP at the following ratios:

Klotz -- 18%
Methanol -- 25%
Gasoline -- 57%

This worked well with the 60.

I haven't tried a modified weedy yet, but intend to do so sometimes in the future.

The trick in creating a trinary system where one component is polar and the other is non-polar is is that the third component must be soluble in both polar and non-polar solvents. this is how the diesel guys mix castor with kerosene. Di ethyl ether is soluble in both.

For a weedy, I would use about 2.5% Klotz, 25% methanol, 65% gasoline and add 5% acetone and 2.5% di ethyl ether or nitromethane. this should give clear mix.

captinjohn

WVARN1957: I have decided to try your mix first. Thanks Capt,n

Rupurt

I think, but I may be wrong as the length of the carbon chain gets longer the OH group becomes less effective and thus less polar.

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

Rupert is somewhat correct in the assumption that the Polarity changes with the number of methyl or carbon double bonded oxygen groups. Although it is somewhat lenthy dissertation, here is some more on solvent polarity amd ultimately misibility.

There are three measures of the polarity of a solvent:
1. Dipole moment
2. Dielectric constant
3. Miscibility with water
Molecules with large dipole moments and high dielectric constants are considered polar. Those with low dipole moments and small dielectric constants are classified as non-polar. On an operational basis, solvents that are miscible with water are polar, while those that are not are non-polar; remember the saying "Oil and water don't mix".
Chemists have classified solvents into three categories according to their polarity.
1. polar protic
2. dipolar aprotic
3. non-polar.
Polar Protic SolventsLet's start with the meaning of the adjective protic. In the context used here, protic refers to a hydrogen atom attached to an electronegative atom. For our purposes that electronegative atom is almost exclusively oxygen. In other words, polar protic solvents are compounds that can be represented by the general formula ROH. The polarity of the polar protic solvents stems from the bond dipole of the O-H bond. The large difference in electronegativities of the oxygen and the hydrogen atom, combined with the small size of the hydrogen atom, warrant separating molecules that contain an OH group from those polar compounds that do not. Examples of polar protic solvents are water (HOH), methanol (CH3OH), and acetic acid (CH3CO2H).
Dipolar Aprotic Solvents
Here the key word is aprotic. In the context used here, aprotic describes a molecule that does not contain an O-H bond. Solvents in this class all contain a bond that has a large bond dipole. Typically this bond is a multiple bond between carbon and either either oxygen or nitrogen. Most dipolar aprotic solvents contain a C-O double bond. Examples are acetone [(CH3)2C=O] and ethyl acetate (CH3CO2CH2CH3).
Non-Polar Solvents
Non-polar solvents are compounds that have low dielecrtic constants and are not miscible with water. Examples include benzene (C6H6), carbon tetrachloride (CCl4), and diethyl ether ( CH3CH2OCH2CH3).
there are no sharp boundaries between polar and non-polar solvents, at least if you use dielectric constants or dipole moments as a measure. There is, however, a correlation between chemical structure and dielectric constant that provides a useful way to think about polarity. Look at the series of polar protic compounds water, methanol, ethanol, 1-propanol, and 1-butanol.

As the number of CH2 groups in ROH increases, the dielectric constant decreases. If you think of these molecules as containing a polar component (OH) and a non-polar component (R), then the polarity of a compound reflects the balance between these two components. As the relative amount of hydrocarbon character increases, the polarity decreases. This is why ethanol is more soluble in gasoline than methanol. Methanol will to some extent mix with gasoline, but it is dependent upon the dipolar strength of some of the gasoline components. This is why, using a oil like Klotz, which is soluble in both polar, and non-polar solvents, or any other similar oil can be used to creat a trinary or quatenary system of gasoline, methanol, oil and nitromathane.

I am sorry is this got too technical.

RingWinger

W Varn1957,

Fantastic job explaining the fundamental bonding of these solvents. You did a very fine job of answering my question regarding how and why methanol / ethanol mix with gas / stove fuel.

I have a few questions.

Are Dipolar Aprotic Solvents somewhat soluble in water? My guess is yes, to a small degree.


Second set of questions is regarding your OS 60FP on gas/methanol/Klotz oil.

Please let us know the running characteristic using these fuels.

Did you use any nitro?

Did you run the engine using the stock carb?

Did it run hot?

Do you feel that your mixture of Klotz/gas/methanol is a good replacement for standard 10% glow fuel?

Will this mixture work in smaller glow engines (i.e. .36 / .46 size glow engines)?

What version of Klotz is the best for these mixes with gas/alcohol KL-100 or KL-200?

Regarding my test using gas/methanol/. I forgot to give the data that I used Amsoil Saber synthetic oil. I ran many tests using a set of plastic syringes to measure all of the components accurately. I ran separate tests with and with the Amsoil to test the ability of methanol to mix with gas/stove fuel. The Amsoil did not seem to make any difference with regard to helping the methanol mix. I could not fine Klotz in my small town. So I should retest using on of the Klotz oils listed above. It would be helpful to know which version works the best. I looked at their web sight and they both look like they would work.

One more question: Do you think you will have problems with diaphragm swelling using your mixture of gas/methanol/acetone/ether?

Thanks,

Poppy Parrot

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

From a previous post:
"I made several runs on the 60 FP today, but I couldn't find my gas modified carb so used a smaller throat perry. Basic conditions were: OS F plug, 20% Klotz oil, 13 X 6 Zinger prop. On each run I varied the amperage on the plug to see if it affected the timing. I saw little or no difference at full throttle, but it did make a difference when it was below 3000 rpm. Listed below are the numbers:

Omega 10% gasoline 10% Methanol 15%Methanol 20%Methanol 25%Methanol

9100 8200 8300 8400 8600 8900


Second series was with 5% acetone added to each blend

9200 8300 8400 8600 8800 9000

Only when the Methanol content was 20% or higher would the engine idle below 3000 rpm without the the glow plug heat, except on glow fuel. I ran the 20% and 25% mix with ethanol and the results were essentially the same except the needle adjustment was a little more sensitive than with Methanol. The carb was not modified, but a longer needle taper would reduce the sensitivity of needle adjestment."

The engine didn't run hot and actually the exhqust had a little softer sound than on glow. I haven't done any work on the fuel mixes since last year, but I'm sure that 2-5% nitro would boost the performance some.

I see no real reason that it wouldn't work with the 36 -46 sized engines.

As Klotz oil, I used techniplate, is soluble in both methanol and gasoline, it would be a good oil to use. Remember, that for this mix I was using 18 - 20% oil because the 60 FP must have a high oil content. Other synthetics which are soluble in both would work just as well. As you go down in the oil content you may have to add acetone to maintain the methanol/gasolubility. I don't know what would be the lowest oil content that would require no acetone addition.

As I said before, I have not tried this with a weedy/Walbro carb. However I do not believe that the standard diaphragms would be affected. However you will have to use neoprene or tygon tubing and a gas stopper in the tank because of the gasoline.

If you are not going out after all out engine performance, but more sport flying, the gas/methanol approach would probably be adequate.

I just might mention that one person I know just mixes regular glow fuel and gasoline in about a 50/50 ratio and then adds about 4 oz/gallon of klotz. He seems to think that it runs just fine.

RingWinger

Hello W Varn1957

Thanks you for answering my questions again.

I’m just a bit confused by some of the data in your repost: See below

Omega 10% gasoline 10% Methanol 15%Methanol 20%Methanol 25%Methanol

9100 8200 8300 8400 8600 8900

It is not clear to me what mixtures you made in this listing. What was your base fuel?

I’m sorry, but I just can’t quit make out the meaning of your data, I understand that your result are listed below your percentages, but when you say Omega 10% gasoline 10% etc mix with what base.

Again thanks for your data.

Poppy Parrot

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

The mixes are as follows:

1 Omega std glow fuel 10% nitro -- 9100
2 Methanol 10%, Klotx 20%, gasoline 70% -- 8200
3 Methanol 15%, Klotz 20%, gasoline 65% -- 8300
4 Methanol 20%, Klotz 20%, gasoline 60% -- 8400
5 Methanol 25%, Klotz 20%, gasoline 55% --8900

The second series reduced the gasoline by 5% and 5% acetone was added.

captinjohn

Vanardo: What brand and type of gasoline did you use in your mix? Thanks for the data.....it really helps the learning prcess. Capt,n

wvarn1957

My Feedback: (3)

Regular 87 octane, I think it was Shell, but don't remember for sure.

captinjohn

Regular 87...I am going to use the same. I do not think I can find E85 around here North of Grand Rapids Mich. Thanks Capt,n

RingWinger

W Varn1957

Thank you for remaking your data tables. This is really excellent information. I’m excited to give this fuel mixture a try in one of my standard glow engines.

Would you say that the Methanol 25%, Klotz 20%, gasoline 55% --8900 with acetone performs much like normal glow fuel. From your data I would say so, but it does not fully address the low speed and mid range performance. I’m interested in just normal sport flying, mainly cheap sport flying!

Can you remember what the engine idled like on this fuel mixture? How about transition in the mid range?

Regarding Weedie Engines:

I’m not too wild about the methanol/acetone/ether combination in my weedie engines due to the diaphragm swelling, I would like to hear feedback from other modelers on their experience with these fuel combinations in weedie engines.

The rapid swelling of my fuel lines surprised me. I have been using these fuel lines for months with normal pump gas or stove fuel without any problems. The swelling started within minutes of contact with the methanol/stove fuel/ acetone/ether mixture. The engine ran less that one minute before it shut down. I could not get fuel to pass into or out of the carb. I finally flushed out the fuel mixture and introduced normal pump gas and after about 2 hours the swelling reduced and the engine would run again.

Thanks again for your help!

Poppy Parrot