av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

Hey guy... (aeronut), never got an e-mail. I just sent you one from my e-mail to the address you posted here. Did you get it?

AV8TOR

aero nut

yes buddy, I've already replied.

Thunder Chicken

Hello fellows
I have been following this thread for quite some time, and have just tried a homelite 25cc engine on the glow/gas mix!
Wow! it ran great! Started right up, a little tweaking on the needles and away it went. Swinging a 16x6 master airscrew it pulled my 14ish lb 8' spad around great!

However, i have noticed that the fuel does not stay mixed up very well. In fact is seperates in about 3-5 minutes. I'm using 1/3 super tiger blend glow fuel ( omega) and 2/3 high test gasoline as advertised here! I went back through the thread and it dident sound like there was much problem with this happening..........could someone shed some light on this problem?
Thanks!

Ralphbf

My Feedback: (27)

I've never used Omega for Gas-Glow.
I've always used Power Master.

Isn't Omega a synthetic Blend?

Ralph

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

I use Byrons and never have had a problem.

AV8TOR

KI8FR

I run omega and I have not had any trubl. I think this is the 1st time I heard of this happaning with the fuel
Paul

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

Could be an additive or something in the gas. Try another brand.

AV8TOR

aero nut

I had a similar problem. and it turned out to be that the gasoline I had purchased had some water in it so when you mix it with the methanol it displaces it, changed gasoline station and voala magic happend no more dissociation.

KI8FR

I was told by some one do not remeber who that if I keep my fuel mix in a can not plastic one it will keep longer. The fuel that I am running now I mixed up in july. Ran it yesterday with no truble. I do not know if it works or not but it is like praying what does it hurt.

wingspan99

My Feedback: (2)

I wonder if this great idea of mixing glow fuel with gas for glow plug use in gasser engines would work better with E85 used in place of the gasoline? I don't have a glow plug adapter or I'd try it myself. You'd probably need a little more oil but maybe less nitro? The E85 probably reacts better with a glow plug than gasoline.
-Tom

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

Not if the nearest gas station selling E85 is 500 miles away (the only station in CA is in San Diego).[:-]

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

Nope.... Been there done that. E-85 doesn't have the methanol needed for the catalytic reaction with the glow plug. I tried and couldn't get it to work well early on in our experiments with Gas/Glow.

I've been reading about your adventures with converting engines to E-85. You might try using a glow plug with full time glow power. It might work with E-85, and would save the trouble and cost of the ignition system.

AV8TOR

Jezmo

My ST40 runs fine on E85 without methanol. My research indicates that the platinum reacts with the hydrocarbons in Ethanol in much the same way as it does with the hydrocarbons in Methanol. (A catalytic converter is reacting with the unburned gasoline hydrocarbons in auto exhaust using primarily platinum as the catalyst) The only change I had to make was to use a type F four stroke plug for a smooth idle. It would stay running with an OS 8 at mid throttle to wide open but would die before reaching idle. I don't completely understand how the reaction between the platinum and hydrocarbons works but I do know there is enough reaction with ethanol to keep the little ST running without power on the glow plug. Someone else may be able to better explain the science behind that. I also have noticed that I use quite a bit less ethanol per minute of run time. Someone in another thread suggested that I might need to add more oil since I was using less fuel but after taking the engine apart after half a gallon the bushing and crank pin look great.

P.S. I also tried to run it on gas/glow but never could make it idle well enough to be dependable. That is why I went to E85 and so far I am getting pretty good results.

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

The air/fuel ratio for gas is around 14 to 1, ethanol around 9 to 1, and methanol around 6 or 7 to 1. That is why you see longer run times for a given amount of fuel when using gasoline, or ethanol, or a combination thereof; it takes less gasoline or ethanol per pound of air to burn properly than it would methanol.

AV8TOR

wingspan99

My Feedback: (2)

I was thinking that if you mixed two gallons of E85 with a gallon of 10/10 glow fuel you might get a better mix for the gas/glow conversions you've been working on since the ethanol reacts better with glow plugs than gasoline. Jezmo is saying the same thing. But if you can't get E85 then that point is moot.

I guess Colorado is close enough to the corn belt that E85 is ubiquitous here. There are about eight stations just in Colorado Springs that sell E85, compared to one station in California. But the E85fuel.com site states there are six more E85 stations planned for the next few months in California. (Political comments on ethanol use voluntarily removed from this post).

There is an E85 station planned for Sacramento. There is an article about it at [link=http://www.oilfreefuture.com/ethanol.html]http://www.oilfreefuture.com/ethanol.html[/link] Apparently, there are additional issues with CARB certification of E85 installations delaying it. There are already 7000 FFV's in Sacramento, so there will be plenty of customers for it. There's a station planned for Berkeley too, that is maybe 100 miles away, see they're getting closer...
Even oil-rich Texas has opened several ethanol distilleries in the last two years, that ought to say something about the spread of E85 popularity across the country. Part of it of course, is that MTBE has been outlawed, something about causing cancer. So a lot more ethanol is needed just to mix into E10 gas. Some people have learned that up to 30% ethanol can be handled by modern fuel-injected cars before the mixture gets too lean. That means most people could pump 4 gallons of regular gas and one gallon of E85 into their non-FFV modern vehicle without a problem.

KI8FR

There is no place out by me in Mi. I know in time it will be every were but for now it is just in spots.

This fuel will work grate when they get that smart plug out. or should I say if they ever get that smart plug out.

Paul

wingspan99

My Feedback: (2)

Paul it looks like Applebee Oil and Propane in Ovid, Michigan got a $12,000 grant to install and sell E85 by August 31, 2007.
Check out this [link=http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168-45547_45548-164948--,00.html]Michigan Grants[/link]. You could stop by there and ask when that will be available.

Cogburn

(edit out non model or engine info..)

End of rant...

Now if you produced a fuel like ethanol(most likely methanol or butanol) with nuclear energy in conjunction with a pyrolisis conversion(to make biodiesel) or/and thermodepolymerization(makes oil, gas and base elements). you would have something more enviromentally sound and it would be a good way to get rid of an kind of waste/garbage that normally goes in the dump(creating a big mess). And it would reduce oil consumption of the kind pumped out of the ground. And it could make electricity so you wouldn't need coal and natural gas power plants. And the electricity could be cheap so home heating could be electric instead of oil and gas. And it would make water that is pure(from the thermodepolymerization process). And thermodepolymerization is good way to get rid of animal carcasses and offal(which is what current plants do). Maybe it would catch on instead if cremation.

Using E85 in a model airplane engine is interesting as it could be a cheap fuel source if it runs reliably,it is 2.04$ a gallon right now here. I'll have to try some in my gas glow Poulan Featherlite conversion.

I also am planning on building a e85 vehicle. Mine will be carbureted and have high compression and horsepower. More of a hot rod than fuel miser but with e85's octane rating and local cheap availability it should work ok and be a fun project. Plus I have a bunch of old race engine parts to use for free and I found conversion parts for a Holley 4bbl carb cheap.

KI8FR

I go to applebees every day on my way in to work and I have not seen a pump there yet for it. I will have to ask Andy when I go there to day to see. and to see what i have to do to run that gas in my old truck.

Thanks for the info
Paul

wingspan99

My Feedback: (2)

Paul let me know what their story is there, maybe they gave back the grant money? It's almost six weeks later than the deadline mentioned in the article. By the way there are two E85 stations in Lansing, you could pick up a few gallons there for experiments.
Cogburn I like your idea for an E85 fueled hotrod, you'd be taking advantage of that 105 octane rating without having to buy Avgas which is about a dollar more per gallon than regular pump gas. What compression ratio do you think is optimal? -Tom

Cogburn

It will be around 12 to 1 compression. I build race car engines as part of my business so I have left over parts that are not good enough for race use but would be more than good enough for use in a street car.

The compression would make use of the octane rating of e85 and recover some of the fuel mileage loss from the lower btu fuel.

E85 is a good fuel but has some limitations. It must be monitored all the time for fuel ratio as the amount of gas is changed on a seasonal basis and its vaporization characteristics may cause problems in certain applications when carbureted(changes vapor states). But it is cheap and legal for the road in high performance engines.

wingspan99

My Feedback: (2)

I would think that the Saito engines with their higher than normal compression ratios (10:1 I believe) would run ethanol better than the glow engine 2-strokes but I wonder if the 2-strokes keep the glow plug hotter than the 4-strokes? I am going to do some more experiments with gas/glow on glow except use E85 and 10/18 glow fuel at 2:1 with some extra oil added to get 15% for the bushing conrods in the smaller engines. This may be just the ticket for my smaller engines in the 40-50 size range. It's amazing how much fuel I'll burn in my Raptor 50 heli. The time just seems to fly when I fly. -Tom

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

There is one important aspect of different fuels (gasoline, ethanol and methanol) mentioned by av8tor1977. It is a fuel to air mix. Engine takes over 50% more E85l (by volume) compared to gas so the mileage of E85/glow mix is much worse than gas/glow mix. E85 gets a little more power but the amount E85 of fuel to produce the equivalent power to gasoline is still much higher. With E85 price only just a bit lower than gasoline it is something to think about before switching your car to FFV model.

The only one benefit of using E85 in our gas-glow conversion is that E85 is burning at lower temperature so it might be gentler to glow plugs. Other than that I don't see any reason to use E85. If you want more power then mix more methanol, less gas.

wingspan99

My Feedback: (2)

We are looking at using E85 from two different sides. Going from gas to E85 is less efficient, yes, but with the potential for higher output if the engine is set up for it. But going from glow fuel to E85 is more efficient and more convenient for me. I have never been able to find straight methanol when I want it, so an E85 pump being two miles down the road is very interesting to me. That said, I may have found a source of methanol near me, a go-kart track is about four miles from my model field. They might have nitro, and even synthetic oil to mix in methanol too. Oh one thing I found is that Horizon Hobby carries Morgan brand Synthetic 2-Stroke oil for $7.49 a quart. So any hobby shop with a Horizon account can get that oil with no hazardous shipping charges. Note that they sell three different kinds of 2-stroke oil, and the other two are for gassers using gasoline/oil mix.
I met a guy last week that gets the same mileage on E85 as on gasoline in his new Ford F150 truck, 15mpg. I asked him if he was sure and he said yes, and that the truck seemed to advance the ignition timing to 8 degrees BTC, as the book says it should be 2 degrees BTC. (He has a computer interface for the ECU). He says everyone told him not to get an FFV because his mileage on E85 would be lousy, so he is very surprised to see the same mileage. Now the F150 is not the most efficient machine on gas, so maybe it's more efficient on E85 than the average FFV. He said the dealer threw in the FFV feature in at no charge to him, I guess the dealer needed to move an FFV that day, but that the difference was $500 normally.
I just tried my first E85/glow fuel mix on glow in a glow engine and am pleased with my initial results. I mixed E85 and 15/16 Powermaster glow fuel at 2:1 then added 7% more castor oil for 12% total oil, and ran it in the ASP 108 with a K&B Idle Bar glow plug. I got a nice smooth two cycle at top end, and a pretty decent idle, at least 40 seconds of idle before roughness. The only thing I noticed is that on quick acceleration it would cool and die, slightly slower acceleration would work ok. With the glow igniter on, transition was perfect at fast acceleration, idle was slightly smoother, top end slightly faster. I noticed that it drew less current at mid range and top end, 3amps, than at idle, 4amps. My conclusion so far is that this mix would work just fine for sport flying with on-board glow on the first 1/3 of throttle, or perhaps with a hotter glow plug. I used to have on-board glow on several planes, mainly for easier starting since inverted engines are a pain to connect a glow igniter. How does the K&B plug rank on the hot-cold scale? Is there a $3 glow plug that is hotter?

Jezmo

I couldn't get gas/glow to idle well in my ST40 unless I used 60 to 65% methanol. With less than 30% methanol any amount of Nitro would make it detonate loudly on acceleration. Even with 60% methanol and 10% Nitro it didn't idle all that great so I started trying the E85. It's not perfect either but close enough to use and considerably cheaper than glow.

On the fuel mix issue, Stoich for gas is 14.7:1, ethanol 9:1, methanol 6.42:1, and E85 9.77:1. The E85 consumption rate would be higher than gas/glow but not as much as it would appear. The difference between Gasoline and E85 is more like 30% on paper but I have seen cases where street vehicles would get virtually identical mileage on either. Strange things can happen in a combustion chamber that don't show up on paper. My ST40 used a lot less fuel on gas/glow than straight glow but when I switched to E85 it used only slightly more than gas/glow. I know every engine is different but that is what mine is doing.

Tom I must have posted at the same time as you. I went to a Type F four stroke plug and got my extended idle and transition back. I also have friends that say the same as your friend with the F150.