maxtheknife

I'm pretty good at crashing my Honey Bee. And I'm real good at replacing broken parts. But what I'm not good at is getting the initial setup right. What exactly needs to be done prior to the first flight? Since it's a fixed pitch chopper, I assumed it would be pretty straight forward and mostly common sense. That has not been the case. I'm $280+ into this Honey Bee and I have yet to fly it for more than 10 seconds between crashes. I thought I was sneaking up on a hover there for a while. But when I started adjusting the proportion and gain it went to heck in a hand basket and crashed really hard and now I'm waiting for more parts. I've never been able to acheive a true balance on the CG and that just doesn't make any sense. I've added the beefed up landing gear and I thought that the newer battery mount would surely cure that problem. But it hasn't. Even when the battery is as far forward as possible, the CG is still tail heavy (and the idea of adding weight to the nose chaps my backside). I have a servo centering electronic doohickey and I've centered the servo arms and levelled the swash plate to the best of my ability. And still I'm having problems...

What I'm asking for probably can't be accomplished here. But if you've experienced a Honey Bee FP and had success, would you please chime in here and relate your initial setup and your experiences please? Thanks in advance.

mrasmm

hrm, if your heli is tail heavy, then that could very well be your problem. If the battery is all the way forward and you are still tail heavy, then there are a few things you can do. Shorten the tail boom up to about 1.5" or so, get a bigger battery and push it all the way forward, add some weight to the front, or take off your canopy and move the battery farther forward.

Also check out radd's and see if that doesn't help, also the v17 heli guide on this page can help you learn alot about heli setups.
http://www.heli-max.net/mediawiki/index.php/Links

Try just scooting around a smooth floor (like a hardwood floor or a trampoline) with the training gear on, that might help also =)

racin06

Which battery are you using? Also, regarding set-up, these are the things I do:

-Balance the main blades
-Balance the tail blades
-Balance the flybar
-Ensure fly paddles are level with level swashplate.
-Ensure the servo arms and push-rods form a 90 degree angle when the swashplate is level.
-Check main blade tracking
-Check motor pinion/main gear mesh

To adjust the proportional and gain:

Turn gain to below half way. (Note: Full clockwise is max gain.)
Plug in 4in1 and wait for solid green light. (Make sure helicopter does not move during this stage)
Fly heli and note the direction of yaw.
Land and unplug the 4in1. (Must unplug 4in1 for changes to take effect.)
Adjust the proportional pot.
If the nose was yawing right then decrease pot (counterclockwise).
If the nose was yawing left then increase pot (clockwise).
Repeat steps 2 to 5 till the yaw is gone.
Fly the heli and increase gain till you experience some tail wag. (No need to unplug 4in1 when adjusting gain.)
If you do experience tail wag then decrease gain a bit till the wag is gone.
Changes in the gain may reintroduce some yaw. If so, repeat steps 2 to 5 again with the new gain setting.
Note: Make sure not to move the helicopter while the 4in1 is initializing. Always wait for the solid green light before moving it, otherwise the gyro may not calibrate correctly.

The most important recommendation I can make to you is to purchase one of the high-end simulators like Phoenix RC, Realflight, Reflex XTR or Aerofly Deluxe. I own Phoenix RC. These sims will cost you $150-$200; however, they will pay for themselves in very little time and your flying skills will advance much quicker. You said you already have spent $280 and you are waiting on additional parts. Trust me, buy the simulator and ground your HBFP until you can hover tail-in very well on the simulator, then fire up the HBFP and practice your tail-in hover. Then work on your side-in hovering on the simulator until you can do this very well and then practice on your HBFP. The same goes for nose-in hovering and forward flight maneuvers such as figure 8s and circuits. I have never attempted a hovering orientation or any forward flight maneuver on my HBFP without first being able to perform these on my simulator. I've been flying the HBFP for 7 months now and I had no prior RC experience of any kind and I can tell you that I have spent less than $50.00 in crash repairs. I have logged about 90 flights to date. Just my $0.02. Good luck and hang in there.

maxtheknife

Thanks for all the pointers. I'm using the 7.4 volt, 800 mah li-po batts with this heli. One came stock with it from Hobby Lobby. I bought an extra one thinking I'd swap them out to extend my flying time. But it's such a hassle changing batts that I find myself recharging with the batt still mounted to the heli. Those carbon fiber battery rails just won't stay put so every time I fly, one little bump on landing causes the battery to move forward or aft. Even with multiple rubber bands securing the battery in place, the little rubber tubing stops on the rails give and allow the rails to slide forward or backward. I've tried to come up with a mod for more secure mounting but all my ideas will add weight to the frame and possibly reverse my current CG problems and make it nose heavy.

I'll try out your instructions for gain and proportion adjustment this afternoon racin06. I tried following the instructions in the book and was having a devil of a time. Once I rebuild my rotor head I'm going to re-set the servos again and make sure the arm is at 90 degrees with a level swash plate. That's one of the unknowns that I was working on blindly. I figured that as long as the swash plate was level while powered up everything was ok. And I've given some serious thought to grounding my heli and buying a good sim program. I spent a lot of time on the FMS sim I bought before buying the heli, but I guess you get what you pay for and I should have known better. Meanwhile, back to my battery/CG problem. There's got to be a way to work that out...

denis1

Hmmm... I'm also a beginner with HoneyBee FP (for quite a long time so far though - but that's also because I'm awfully busy so I can't afford myself much time flying and practising). BUT, I'm happy to say that I have a feeling that I've got it right this time with my first steps in hovering. So, maybe my points could also help...

Namely, for the first flights - I had the same problem - crashes, crashes, crashes... Seemed impossble to keep it in the air for more that the few secs. No control over it at all.

But then - finally I figured out the problem - the main and absolutelly necessary command is tail orientation and constant corrections.
I was ignoring that fact in my first flights so as heli is fast, and as breeze tends to move it and rotate it almost randomly - very soon I would loose any orientation - and thus heli crashes almost instantly. So, I was kind of depending on a good luck so that it don't turn is such position that could lead to bad crash afterwards.

So, what I'm doing now - as soon as heli is lifted off (and as for this phase, I don't lift it off for any more than some 5 ft high), I concentrate very hard to constantly have tail-in orientation. As soon as I have the tail-in - heli is mine, beacuse I can relativelly easily then keep it controlled.
So I keep tail-in orientation and at the same time I'm correcting movements left-right-fwd-bckwd and that's it!
I can hover like that for as long as I want. And as long as I preciselly keep tail-in - heli is quite safe in hovering at that hight.

maxtheknife

Well racin06, I was outside adjusting the gain and proportional and finally got it right. It would lift off fine and stay tail-in for a few seconds and then it would get a glitch or a gust of wind and away she'd go! The last time I impacted the ground the same thing broke that broke the last time I was down for two weeks. The little ball snapped off of the side of the fly paddle outer frame. And like a dummy I only ordered one of those because I thought it was a fluke. I also found another problem that was giving me fits. One of the links between the fly paddle frame and the swash plate kept jumping off toward the rotor shaft and making the controls sloppy. That may have been the glitch. Otherwise, it was flying pretty good compared to the last time I flew it. I have to say that thing is pretty tough. One of the crashes happened when I got it a little higher than I intended. As I was trying for a controlled crash it zinged off and hit a big oak tree. HARD!!! I heard it go THUNK and it hit the ground. No damage that time that I could see. But that may be what cracked that little ball and it held long enough for a few more flights (crashes). Heh.

One of the things I discovered out of adjustment while rebuilding my rotor was the flybar. When I broke the flybar several weeks ago I made one from one of the legs on my training gear and failed to get it exactly centered. It was only off by .2 mm but that was enough to make it fly crazy like it was. The more I work on this little devil, the more I begin to understand that 'good enough' ain't nowhere near good enough. If everything isn't just right, it's not going to fly right. DUH. I finally got the CG right but still have the same problem with the battery mount rods moving. The battery stays put but those rods just keep creeping forward. It might be time to order that bare bones HB FP and use the old one for spare parts. Decisions, decisions...

maxtheknife

Well, I thought about that broken ball on the fly paddle frame and put on my Arkansas Engineer hat and got my saftey wire and pliers and rigged that thing so it'll work. And now wouldn't you know... That thing will take off and hover pretty good. It's much more stable for some reason even though the battery was getting low by the last flight. I'm recharging the battery now and will give it another go with a full charge. It's not intended to be a permanent fix. I just wasn't finished flying yet . But nothing important can be damaged by the wire mod so I'll leave it like that as long as it works. That swash plate link was the one popping off all the time anyway. Things that make you say hmmm...

restinpieces

hey max, i can't believe how simular my experience with my hbfp is to yours. right down to the wire on the flybar mount. i've had mine for about 6 months now and never have had what you would call a succesful hover. i know i've spent 200.00 on parts and upgrades. after reading many posts on these forums, i decided my 4 in 1 was toast. and maybe it is, who knows, but i wasn't gonna spend another 60.00 bucks on a hunch. so in my infinite wisdom, i went and bought a walkera df60. yeah yeah yeah, i know i know, but what was a poor boy to do. now i'm well over 400.00 in it on repairs and upgrades, and still have not had what you would call a succesful hover.[&o] now i'm doing what i should have done a long time ago, looking for a gently used realflight sim on ebay.
so for now, my fleet is grounded till i get in some sim time and figure this stuff out ( even my picco z is broke[&o] )

btw, i picked up a heli at my local drug store the other day. ( who knew ) its called hoverlites from blue hat toy co.
25.00[X(] now we're talking.

maxtheknife

Hey restinpieces, I feel your pain old buddy. And my wire mod on the fly paddle frame really works like a charm. I must have crashed that little HB FP at least two dozen more times this evening after the repair. No slippage or sloppiness. No other parts popping off. No more breakages besides that dinky tail post/tail prop protector. Hot melt glue to the rescue!

I'm really amazed at how well that thing is holding up. Although, I think my tail rotor motor is going out. My gain is maxed out and my left rudder trim is firewalled about midway through the pack drain. But I actually had a 5 second sustained, mostly controlled hover at about 7 feet. But then of course I crashed . I also need to brag on myself a little about the crashing. I'm learning to do controlled crashes that cause no damage. I'm not sure how I'm doing it, but my hands just take over when my mind goes blank and it hits hard on the skids every time. Well, almost every time. I even got in some unexpected forward flight and a tight circle that I recovered from and actually landed without a crash. I almost crapped a golden egg I was so happy with myself!!! Imagine me taking off and actually landing instead of crashing... I'm starting to have some fun now. Let us know how your realflight sim training goes restinpieces. I've been thinking about that too. It's just more money, after all. Heh.

blade_killer

okay guys, heres what ya need to do to balance that LiPo HBFP

the battery must be under the 4 in 1, you cant balance the heli with the stock battery tray, heres what ya do....

take the rear landing skid suppot bar and put it in the front and the front one in the back, you'll notice the rear one has two holes in it. Put those holes facing forward and glue in two CF rods to stick out under the 4 in 1, then mount the battery to those rods...here's a pic.
Also,, for those pesky ball links that break off, you can CA them back on and wrap the base with thred and soak that in CA and it's as good as new!!

if you find yourself breaking stock skids, get ya a set of Blade CP skids and put those on, direct replacements and still lite. The key with the HBFP is keep it stock and lite while learning (I found out) it flys best stock.
I broke one of the Ring-Like Push-Rods and head balls and left it off and man, it flies just as good with only one and if I do crash it hard enough to pop the head/rotor off, nothing else breaks and no damage! you gotta make sure the blades still track tho, fortunately, mine do!

maxtheknife

How do you track the blades if they're off? Just bend the blade at the rotor head? And here's a question I've been pondering for beginner heli pilots on fixed pitch or even CP helis. Since overcontrol at that critical moment seems to be my worst enemy, would shortening the flybar be more effective at dampening the controls? I've tried moving the flybar weights all the way out, halfway in and all the way in and can't really tell much difference. The stock flybar is 17 mm, so I was thinking about shortening it down to 10 mm and trying it. Has anyone ever tried that?

Edited to add:
I finally broke down and added some weight in the nose to fix the CG. I strapped the battery down with multiple rubber bands and added a ceiling fan balancing weight (after testing first) inside the nose of the canopy with that double sided sticky tape. Perfect balance and better flying for sure. Always before I'd have to adjust the trim to ofset the CG problem. Now the trim tab is centered and liftoff is mostly straight up in calm weather.

blade_killer

k, couple of things....

yes, to track the blades you grip the blade at the head and use the other hand to hold the blade tip and gently twist it either up or down depending on how it's out of track sometimes using a blowdryer can help "warp" it into the correct position. Blades that are too tight or too lose will result in a wobble. Advance the blades on the FP about 5-15 degrees forward before you start to fly, this also helps the blades settle into position..
as far as over correcting, it's easy to do it and the more responsive the heli is (like a BCPP) the faster it will jump out of control. what I do is I hold the TX sticks at their base pinching them between my fingers and move them in very small increments that way I am not jerking the sticks their full range of motion and over doing it.
I think shortening the flybar will result in two thing, faster responsiveness and more unsteady hovering, lengthening the flybar will result in a more sluggish heli (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) so I wont touch the flybar, I keep it stock.
Also, adding weight, is from what I read, not recommended, the HBFP flys best stock (unless you change the main motor/pinon then you'll need a few mods) and you should never compensate for a bad CG with trim. Try locating your LiPo as I showed in my last post and balance the heli by moving the batter and forget adding weights you'll get shorter run times and a heavier heli.

maxtheknife

I appreciate your input blade killer. But if I hadn't added weight to the nose I'd never have corrected my CG problem. Not without shortening my tail boom and I really didn't want to do that. I agree with keeping it as stock as possible. But the landing gear upgrade was a necessity that has paid off well in less breakage from crashes. That landing gear is tough, make no mistake. The stock landing gear is tinker toy material and breaks with the least impact. Anyone who has flown this little HB FP would agree unless they are extremely talented with hand to eye coordination and received an unusually well set up HB FP out of the box. That's just my opinion based on my limited experience.

I broke the other ball off of the fly paddle frame today while trying to perfect my hover technique. I guess I'm grounded till I wire that side like the other. Restinpieces, do you feel my pain old buddy? I'm tired of buying replacement parts and don't think I'm going to buy any more if I can get away with it. I'll jury rig this little chopper till it's no longer stock as long as it flies well. My next purchase will be for a bare bones HB FP and after that I'll probably throw in the towel and buy a good sim program. I love flying RC helis, but I can't afford buying replacement parts after almost every flight. I guess I'm just a weak sister but that's just the way I see it. I'm not a quitter by nature. But I know when to cut my losses and move on.

restinpieces

aw come on now max- hang in there. misery loves company ya know it sounds like your startin ta get the hang of it. believe me, i know how frustrating it is to know that every flight session is gonna be followed by yet anouther parts order. and for some reason, i never seem to be able to order just what i broke. i feel like i gotta get my moneys worth of the shipping charges, so i always over do it. my last crash on my df60, i broke the landing skid--5.00 . my order totaled 73.00 [X(] . but thats why my next order will be for a sim. i , too thought about cuttin my loses, but i just know how cool it's gonna be to acually fly these things and land and not break something. i'll get there, and so will you. we just gotta start takin some of this free advise on all these forums that say a good sim is the best purchase you can make.

my wife still thinks we should get into the heli parts biz, seems like thats where the money is

maxtheknife

Your wife is a pretty smart gal!

blade_killer

I guess you didn't read my posts did you, or look at the pic I attached? adding the CF rods to the front of the heli so you can bring the LiPo up further for balance is sooooo simple and you have everything you need to do it if you ever broke a flybar.

I do own one and I agree the stock landing skids break easily, thats why I said get the BCP skids and forget the HB skids, the BCP skids fit right in and are stronger and don't add any weight. The key to this heli is setting it up correctly, you should never use trim to compensate for bad CG and if you looked at the pic I posted you would get a balanced heli without adding any weight. Mine was not "perfect" out of the box but with the knowledge I gained from my BCP and people here on this forum I was able to get it "right" out of the box (and my BCP did have superskids on it). All I had to do out of the box was level the swash plate and center the CG and it was good to go.
Anyway, the HBFP is a great heli to learn on, do you guys have training gear, do you know how to level your swash plate?

restinpieces

yes and yes--but would like to here your way of leveling the swash. the problem with my hbfp was uncontrolled spinning, even with the gain almost off and no matter where i put the proportion. ( i know to unplug batt before adjusting proportion) i had several hard crashes early on and i think the 4 in 1 is bad. the problem with my df60 is i just aint good enough to fly it yet.[&o] thats why i'm goin the sim route.


" BOBS BRAKE SHOP--WHERE WE STAND BEHIND OUR WORK, CAUSE WE SURE AS HECK AINT GONNA STAND IN FRONT OF IT!!

maxtheknife

Blade killer, I'm sorry if I offended you with my comments. I most assuredly didn't mean to. I read everything you wrote and looked at the pic you posted. I just couldn't make out what you were trying to express with the pic. I've tried everything my Arkansas engineer mind can conjure up and still was having CG problems. I really appreciate the fact that you own and fly a HB FP and genuinely read your post with great interest. I want to learn to be a good RC heli pilot and am glad there are folks like you who will post their experiences to help me along that path. But at the same time, I'm hard headed and tend to learn things the hard way by my own experience. I think things through and figure out the best approach and go for it. Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and pointers with the problems I'm having. Sincerely.

Restinpieces, I think we must be brothers that got separated a birth or something. I always order more than I need for the same reason as you. I hate to buy a $1.29 part and pay $11.99 shipping for it. Some of those outfits seem to make more money on shipping and handling than on the part itself. And don't get me started on Ebay. Sell the part cheap and pad the shipping. That makes me so mad I've almost stopped looking on Ebay. Anyway, I'll be saving up to buy that barebones HB FP but in the mean time I'm going to do the wire mod on my flybar paddle frame and fly that little chopper for all it's worth. I think I'm about ready to take it to my horse pasture and fly it up high and with lots of action. Surely I can learn to hover at 50 feet just as easily as at 5 feet. If not, then oh well and I'll be glad for that barebones chopper standing by. Have you found a good deal on sim software yet restinpieces? I looked on Ebay and found a few good deals but it's a crap shoot since most of the good deals were all used stuff. Hell, I guess it's all a crap shoot on Ebay. Good luck buddy.

restinpieces

thanks max, i needed a good laugh. it's been a rough day. i just this minute won a realflight 3.5 on ebay for 155.00. gently used i hope. i'll let ya know how it goes.
nice tip toe manuver on that other deal i'm the same way tho, like to make my own mistakes. builds character. ya think i'd have enough of that by now. good luck on the high altitude flight. land on the skids

Hueyguy

Hey Blade, Thanks for a great battery mount mod & nice quality pic !! I tried velcroing to the 4 in 1 but the Li-Po was just too far forward & I was worried the tab that the 4 in 1 sits on might break. Got me some 2mm CF rod & will do the conversion this Sunday at work ( I'm only on standby so hopefully it will be a quiet day!). Thanks again.

Cheers from the UK, Mike.

lyclyc

so how do you guys solve the problem when the pesky ball is broken?
i screw in a screw nut and use as it is.

i don't know how you guys do the wire mod.

maxtheknife

It's pretty simple, really. I just take a short piece of wire and bend it around the paddle frame where the ball broke off and then slip both ends of wire through the linkage eye. Then I bend each wire horizontally (one left, one right) so the linkage eye will have plenty of up/down travel without restriction. It takes a bit to get it right the first time, but after that it's pretty easy. If the linkage is restricted, just unbend the wires a bit on each side till it moves freely.

blade_killer

restinpieces,
okay what I do to level the swash is, I set the heli on a flat surface like a table and then I use a small level and I hold it up to my swash and I center the bubble, then I eyeball the bottom of the plate with the top of the level and if they aren't parallel I adjust the push rods until it is, I also do the same thing going perpendicular to the heli and level the plate side to side. you HAVE to make sure the servos are centered when you do this.

maxtheknife,
I wasn't offended but it did seem like you asked for help then disregarded the help when you got it (maybe it wasnt that good of help?) and was set on doing it the "wrong" way. I guess that wasn't your meaning, so no worries there. I am pretty new to this heli stuff too and I went the wrong way when I decided to learn and I just try to help people to NOT do it the way I did and try so save others from the money pit syndrome.

Hueyguy,
Hey, glad to hear it helped someone and I was worried that my instructions were really bad after maxtheknife's post.

maxtheknife, I will gladly try to clearify my post if you would like.

I fix my link balls by gluing them back on with CA then wrap the base with thread and then soak the thred in CA and let dry, works really good.

maxtheknife

No worries blade killer. I got everything I needed from your post and I appreciate you taking the time to type it out. And I'll add my experiences with leveling my swashplate since I haven't figure out a way to use a bubble level. I just use the canopy mount strut as a reference and level the swashplate to that. It works real well, although I haven't figured out a way to exactly center my servo arms yet. I get it pretty close, but there's still room for improvement. I've tried removing the screw from the servo arm and pulling the arm and moving it a tooth in one direction or another. But it's either too little or too much. I also tried using my servo centering electronic gizmo but when I power the heli back up it just goes to its normal (uncentered) position. Heh. It seems to do fine when I'm flying it. Also, I meant to say earlier that the wire mod on the fly bar paddle causes a bit of 'cushion' on the controls. I'm not sure why, but it seems to make it easier to fly the thing. Go figure.

blade_killer

centering servos, try this, turn on your TX then plug in the battery on the heli and let the servos move to their center position (make sure your TX trims are center) and once the servos settle into place (centered) make sure the servo horns are as close to horizontal as possible, one tooth off up or down is no big deal, these don't have to be level just horizontal. Adjust the pushrods until the swash is level with a bubble level (side to side, front and back) and then center the CG and you're done.