btm123

I've just got myself an Esky Lama V4. I bought it second hand so haven't paid a huge amount for it. I'm a total beginner.

Its a great bit of kit. The only trouble I'm finding is that I initially bought it as an indoor chopper, which is what all the marketing seems to indicate. But I'm finding that I just dont have the room to fly it indoors, or at least not the room a beginner needs to fly it indoors. It's a bit bigger than I was expecting TBH.

So I've moved to outdoors, but am now having the problem of it being pretty unstable in even the slightest breeze. I know it isn't gonna fly in a gale, but I'm literally talking about a calm day where there is a breeze every now and again. But I do understand it wasn't really designed for outdoor use.

So going back to the first sentence where I've bought it second hand, I'm wondering whether to stick with it and hope my skills improve, or to resell it and get something more suitable for outdoor light. The Esky big lama would seem like the obvious choice, unless anyone has any better ideas.

Any thoughts or advice would be welcome.
1. Is the big lama much better outdoors?
2. Is the big lama likely to be a stop gap anyway before I'd move onto something bigger/6 channel, in which case not worth doing.
3. Should I just persevere with the Lama until my skills improve sufficiently to handle it a bit better outdoors. Trouble is, the way I'm going I might spend more on repairs than I would do on upgrading.

Thanks in advance
P.S. One last thing, I've broken one of the skids and was thinking of using some kind of wire to make temporary ones whilst I'm learning. Has anyone had any luck with this and what did you use? I'm thinking of fairly high current rated electrical earth wire at the moment. It wont look good, but will do while I get the hang of it.

btm123

I was also wondering about a Honey Bee V2, which would seem like a step up in difficulty, but at the same time I may end upgrading a big lama to one of these as I progress anyway? How would the honey bee 2 fly outdoors compared to the lama/big lama?

Thanks

pgroom_68

Hey btm123,

I am a long term owner of a Lama4, Lama3, Honeybee FP v2 & I also own three Big Lamas - so I have all of the birds that you mention!
A1. Yes, the Big Lama (BOL) is great outdoors - but only in mild wind (up to 5mph).
A2. No, I think the BOL is not an "inbetween heli". IT IS THE BEST of the coaxials, and much can be learnt from them (eg. throttle control, orientation, distance flying) but nothing can totally prepare you for the larger Collective Pitch birds, although a flight sim goes a long way...........[sm=wink_smile.gif] [link=http://www.rcflightsim.com/]$40 Clearview flight sim[/link] is my favourite due to its friendly nature and great looks & features - you can download & use it for free and, if you like it you can purchase a "Key code" then.
A3. When you can place the L4 exactly where you want, when you want, and how you want to fly it - get longer servo arms - connect the control arms further out, and fit an adjustable flybar (then start moving the weights inwards towards the hub).... This will make the coaxial less stable in hover and have a faster FF and more servo throw=better response!

I have heard of someone else constructing skids from bent wire - but it doesn't seem worth the effort (and they were heavy). The best skids for a L4 are [link=http://www.boomtownhobbies.com/BoomTownHobbies_Ultra_Flex_Skids_Lama_V4_p/bth006.htm]THESE[/link] Ultra-flex from BoomTownHobbies.com They are the last set of skids you will ever buy!![sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]
P.S. The HBFPv2 is a FP - and is the logical next step after a coax BUT ONLY if you are finding it difficult to progress to the next step..... The low head speed of this FP also leaves it susceptible to being buffeted around in any wind! And it is larger than a Lama4 so not good for enclosed spaces[]
P.P.S. Do you have the equipment to record & upload say 20 seconds of Lama4 flight to YouTube (posting a link here) so I can offer you a tailored recommendation?[sm=49_49.gif]

btm123

Thanks Peter,
Thanks for the helpful reply. Thats some collection you have there.
Based on your advice I guess the HoneyBee doesn't really gain me anything.
I just need to decide whether to persevere with using an indoor chopper outdoors, or go to a proper outdoor chopper.

I've just been out again briefly and there was zero wind and things were a lot better. But last night when I was flying there was zero wind, but with occasional very light breezes. Enough to feel, but certainly not gusts. I was struggling to keep it under control when the breeze kicked in, but probably just as I dont have the skills.

My concern is that by trying to learn outside I may just end up frustrating myself too much, so I was therefore wondering about swapping for the big Lama. The flip side is that if I had gained the skills already I'd probably be confident enough to use the V4 indoors in the limited space I have, but I'd have to gain those skills outside in the first place. Catch 22.... On top of that I already need new skids (which I know is normal for a beginner) because the wind took it out of my control. I wouldn't want to spend a fortune having to fix it up becasue I was trying to do something it wasn't designed for.

I'll get some new skids ordered as my superglue fix didn't hold and try things out a little more with what I have. Hopefully with a bit of practice things will be a lot better. Ican probably post a vid, but at this early stage it probably isn't of use.

Out of curiosity why do you have so many choppers? Do you use the V4 as your indoor model and the Big Lama for outdoor use, or do you just like the variety? Do a lot of people use the V4 outdoors or is it really just an indoor model?

On reflection for what I paid for it I'd probably just keep it even if I bought something else, and at least Imight be able to use indoors at some point.
I'll see how I get on and maybe look at getting a Big Lama as well.
Thanks Again

btm123

Sorry to be a pain, I'm just about to order the Boomtown skids and thought I might buy some more durable blades (if I'm paying postage from USI might as well add stuff now) but it states that they need Blade grips installed? I can't see any reference to blade grips on their site. Do I need to upgrade what I have to use the harder blades? If so I'll just buy a spare pack of stock blades instead.
http://www.boomtownhobbies.com/Xtrem...p/esl005-b.htm

Thanks again

Batty33Res

No, you do not need the blade grips to use the Xtreme blades on the Lama class choppers. Lama's, Dolphin, Comanche. Only on the CX2 which is a different heli. It's called the Eflite Blade CX2 "different chopper, different maker" The blades your speaking of will bolt right on

btm123

Great, that makes sense now I've reread it again. I'll get some ordered.

Thanks

kiwigeoff

btm123

Welcome to the addiction! I about 6 months you will wonder why you ever asked Peter that question and will be hiding the latest Bird from your significant otherplus you will have to answer that same question to her!


Geoff

pgroom_68

Hey again btm123,

You are correct that the HBFPv2 wouldn't gain you any benefits over what you have - although the spare parts are readily available for it! That is why I bought one - then two - of those........

I guess the whole direction of what you get next depends on "how bad you got bit" by the heli bug! If you are definitely going to progress on to CP (Collective Pitch) birds - I think you would benefit from quite a lot of outdoor practice with a BOL - at the same time putting in many hours behind the sticks on [link=http://www.rcflightsim.com/]$40 Clearview.[/link]. This sim has many different (40+ helicopters & 40+ planes & 4 car) set-ups - also free extra helis, planes & flying sites [link=http://my.att.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=87&subpageid=314205&ck=]HERE[/link] - and is a huge cut above FMS (the free sim that perhaps came with your bird)

So far I haven't suggested spending very much $ at all - but as I said, the BOL is a VERY nice bird and worth a look!! WHEN you do buy a [link=http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_79&products_id=2916&zenid=0d668381b00efdf411b7ccf00bcf94a8]BOL[/link], ensure that you get a 2.4G, order an [link=http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_204_212&products_id=3391]Extreme +15mm extended inner shaft[/link] (to widen the gap between lower & upper blades=no blade strikes), and order [link=http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_203_224&products_id=3105]Walkera Lama 400D BLADES[/link] - fit no prob to the BOL[sm=wink_smile.gif] By adding all these things to your shopping cart at once you will save on shipping! Surely you have an on-line store nearer to you that sells BOLs & Extreme products also?!

To answer the Qs bolded above: A lot of fliers use their Lama 4 outdoors as well as indoors - but you must have a windless day! The BOL is more forgiving - but in order to really "not notice" to wind, the Collective Pitch with its high head speed is a must![sm=regular_smile.gif] Before you order one of those though, it is best to gain a lot a skill flying a coax (and maybe a FP) in order to get familiar with helicopter orientation in the air, throttle (and collective) control - and generally putting the bid where you want.............[sm=thumbs_up.gif] I have twelve (12) birds all up now: Two x [link=http://www.besthobbysite.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=150_152&products_id=12592]Walkera CB180D[/link]s & two x [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8793950]Esky Dauhpins[/link] as well as the ones that you mentioned before.........[sm=wink_smile.gif] I enjoy flying each one of them, but it is very important to remember that the different types act in different ways (coax (a type of Fixed Pitch), FP - with different º flybars, CP & CCPM)

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]
P.S. Glad you re-read the linked Ultra-flex skids and got good info mate[sm=thumbs_up.gif] I am a "stickler" for detail, so if you needed to buy other blade grips to fit on your bird - I would definitely have told you up front![sm=49_49.gif] But they are a direct & easy fit.

btm123

Thanks again everyone.
Still not really decided where I'm headed with all this yet. I've no plans to go crazily into this game, and dont really have the time to be honest, but thats probably what you all thought too - just looking to have a bit of fun flying round the garden of an evening.

Once the new skids arrive for the V4 I'll do some more flying outside in calm conditions, and do some hovering inside my limited space indoors too. That way I can work out how much of a problem the breeze is outdoors, and how much ca be attributed down to my lack of skill. For what I'd get by selling it I'll keep the V4 Lama either way to hopefully use indoors once I get more control. I'm not going to spend money modding it to try to improve performance though, I'll take it as it is and move on up if necessery.

If I'm still struggling outdoors with it in a few weeks I'll probably get a Big Lama. Icaught the missus in a good mood today and I'm sure she gave me the OK!

As for shopping, I searched around for over an hour before ordering from the states. Couldn't find the same skids anyway, but the blades in the UK were significantly more expensive £6/pair instead of $3/pair so it worked out cheaper to pay the shipping from the US. Crazy!

Was shocked to see how cheap the Big Lama is from Miracle-Mart, even if they are out of stock. Cheapest I've seen online in UK for 2.4Ghz is £95. MMworks out at £66.

erdnuckel2

just don't forget btm, some countries charge you import taxes on the stuff that comes from china ... or import VAT or customs dues, or ... example: I had a V4 sent from china to germany so I could have some flying fun while visiting my family there ... first thing my parents had to do was pick the bird up at customs and pay an additional 12 Euros ...

don't know how that is with UK ... but it is something to alway keep in the back of your mind to not one day get an unpleasant surprise ...

Sven

pgroom_68

Hey again btm123,

Nice "un-plan" mate[sm=thumbs_up.gif] I think you will be happy with a BOL later when you need to order one - as it is a great helicopter - modded or unmodded. It just flies without blade clashes with an extended inner shaft. If you don't give it a lot of cyclic (sideways or frontways/rearward tilt), it will teach you lots about flying a model outdoors in a little wind. I wish my wife would take an interest in my hobby........[sm=49_49.gif]

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]

btm123

Yeah, I am aware of customs and import duty. I wouldn't buy a chopper from abroad, just small parts, for that reason and also it would be a huge hassle if anything was wrong with it.

I just find it frustrating we end up paying more for most things. I could understand if they were built in the US, but it makes no odds when they are coming from China. Anyway, rant over....

Peter, if I do get a Big Lama I'll get the extended shaft and blades. I've seen a few vids on youtube showing how easy blade strikes are with this. I was referrring to the V4 where I said I wasn't going to spend too much money trying to make it any better outdoors.

I'll get that trial sim software downloaded too in the meanwhile. Not got anything else to do until Iget the V4 up and running again, so I'll try to get some more time on the Sim.

Anyway, thanks all for the advice. You've all been very helpful, even if I haven't managed to make any firm decisions yet.
I'll let you know how I get on, and will no doubt be back hassling you for more advice soon anyway.

pgroom_68

Hey again btm123,

No worry mate! I hope the little insight I have given is in someway helpful.......
It sounds like you have your future mapped out well with this hobby! NB. It is easier to fly any chopper in a sim than in real life due to a number of factors, but @ [link=http://www.rcflightsim.com/]$40 Clearview[/link] can teach you an aweful lot for such a low price......[sm=49_49.gif]

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]
P.S. I'm not sure about your location and import duty - but I have never had to pay a cent!
P.P.S. Do a google (search near you) to locate and bookmark the BOL sellers (even ebay sells them) - and then look for spare parts from the same online stores if available! There has got to be a hobby store that imports them and Esky (and even Xtreme) spare parts/upgrades - and a UK store will pay the import duty for you

aircrash

Yes it is. The bigger and most important the heavier is better to wind.
As if it can fly outdoors at a lot of wind, then no. It can fly at a mild wind and flies great at an almost calm weather.

Hmm, you should consider that a 6ch that is capable of flying at wind is so big and heavy and powerful that needs a suitable field.
Small 6ch (250 size) are not that good anyway, so you must have in mind a 450 and its disadvantages on a small yard, with buildings/people/pets/cars/etc to worry about.
It can`t, or I should better say it should not be used on a tight place with people, objects, property.
So you better ask yourself if you`ll ever end up with a belt CP heli than asking if a Big Lama is a stop gap.
For me a Big Lama is all Ineed and I should have. Especially now that I can`t (lack of free time) go to a field and just fly outside my house.

I would say that a V3 or even a V4 lama is too small for outdoors. Even if there is no wind at all you`ll have a very small sized heli, that it is a bit funny to see it blend (actually vanish) in a large area.
So in any case you need a bigger one, like the Big Lama.

Miracle Mart is cheap, including shipping cost (for me it has the same shipping cost as if I would buy from UK -for example).
You need an xtreme extended shaft and a few spare blades. One outer shaft as a spare would be nice too. And some cheap, ebay batteries.
You can also tape the fuselage and get it very durable, so it never breaks. Taping is a tricky job but you can make it look so nice, as it was never taped. Or leave it as it is, try not to have a huge crash and if it cracks in a place then use some clear packaging tape to fix it.

btm123

Thanks Aircrash,
You've made some very valid points, and ones I hadn't thought of due to my lack of knowledge on this hobby.

You've correctly summed up (and mirrored) my situation in that I wont have the time to be going out to fields etc. This will be a back garden hobby, albiet a reasonable size garden.

I initially planned to fly the lama indoors, but dont have the room for that either. Its a bit bigger than I first thought it would be, though I'm sure it will be possible once I get used to it.

I didn't want to rush and buy a big lama, then in 3 months rush out an buy something else, like I'm looking at doing already with the Lama V4. But I think you have all shown me that the chances are the Big Lama or equivelent would be the final chopper I bought, unless I got really serious and was able to dedicate time to going out and about in fields.

But from what you've all said I dont think that is the case, and realistically I dont think I am going to be moving on too much from the Big Lama.

Looks like I'm going to end up with 2 choppers after all - a V4 for indoor use and a BOL for outdoor. I've been keeping an eye on the breeze whilst the Lama is out of action, and it is pretty much constant when you look for it, even though if you weren't thinking about it you'd say it was a very calm day.
I think I'm just going to get hacked off trying to learn on the V4 when it is getting blown about.

barak1001

IMHO Aircrash hasn't represented 250 class helicopters quite truthfully (though probably not intentional on his part as he doesn't fly them).

250 size helicopters can handle a much stronger wind than any coaxial can. As in you can fly one in a 5 mph wind and it will basically be as if the wind isn't blowing at all. That being said they are extremely twitchy due to their size and aren't really good learn to fly a collective pitch chopper on.

450 size although large can be flown into a relatively small space (I frequently fly mine between the trees in my yard in a 20 x 30 space). The 450 is the cheapest of the collective pitch helicopters and though large, it handles wind extremely well. 10 mph wind will push the chopper a bit in whatever direction the wind is blowing, but won't roll it over or cause any massive control problems. I'd suggest learning to fly a CP helicopter on a 450 over any other size. The initial helicopter purchase is relatively cheap, parts are easy to find and extremely low priced, and the helicopter will almost fly itself compared to smaller cp helicopters.

No coaxial is going to fly well in a wind no matter how much you spend on modifying it. I've flown my Lama V4 in a 13mph constant wind with gusts of 20 mph, but it was constant struggle to keep it in the air. You'd be better served doing as Peter suggested and buying yourself a sim, though I'd suggest Phoenix RC over Clearview, simply because Phoenix is a better physics simulation. Once you can fly a cp helicopter in the sim without crashing, then you can buy yourself an outdoor helicopter.

btm123

Just thought I'd let you all know I took the plunge and got myself a Big Lama. So far I'm happy with the decision and it feels a lot more stable then my V4 when flying outdoors.
Of course Istill have a lot to learn - see my other thread!!

I ordered it with some harder blades - EBL005-W - and also an extended shaft though I've been flying it stock for now. Not sure how good these blades are as they aren't the ones recommended, but were all the place had.

Anyway, thanks again all for your help - I'm pretty sure I've made the right decision as its fairly breezy (not windy) but it was pretty stable.

pgroom_68

Hey again mate,

The Xtreme blades that you ordered are OK - but IMO cone (bend along their length) to much for outdoor flight in a slight breeze. You need stiffer blades for this. That is why I recommended the [link=http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_203_224&products_id=3105]Walkera 400D BLADES[/link] - they are a direct fit! Those xtreme blades that you got are great for on-board videoing as they act as a type of shock absorber and take up a bit of the vibration of helicopter flight - although this is not always a good thing - as it can mask any underlying problems/vibrations and allow for easier blade strikes[:@]

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]
P.S. My second choice of blade is HP Rotor blades - cheaper when you order in multiples like [link=http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80_203_224&products_id=3105]THIS[/link] and a great seller also[sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Pilot_Guy

Well I got tired of flying my Dauphin in the garage so I set out on plans to make this thing fly outside in a small breeze.

What I could think of is make it heavier so it wasn't effected by the wind so much... Also I cut a slot to open up the tail so the wind could blow through the tail rather than push it like a weather vane. I use an extra heavy battery plus a little nose weight to make it more like a rock in the air rather than a feather. I put on some extreme blades powered by the extreme motors and did the mods to make the swash more sensetive and more movement. Added the extended shaft too for blade strike avoidance.
I have great FF flight and control with minmum weather vanning in slight breezes where as before, I couldn't get it to fly forwards at all even with full stick....the wind would just keep pushing it away.

Also I shaved about 3/4 of an inch off the blades.

My Dauphin zips around the yard like an arrow now. I even took it to a camp ground and impressed people with it....

pgroom_68

Hey again mate,

Sounds great - well done![sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Can you make a short video and post it to YouTube with a link on this forum?? This would help other fliers to achieve the same or similar results and keep us all happy[sm=49_49.gif]

Again - well done!

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]

btm123

Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing pics/vids of that too.

Pilot_Guy

Sure I will....I'l get it out of storage and dust it off for a video lol.

I won't claim it will fly stable in big wind, but it does a hell of a lot better than stock... You have to keep on the ball and be ready to counter the wind quickly, but it is a lot of fun and a good challenge. I can fly it well enough that I am now thinking of going to a BOL.... I know where I can get the green version with 2.4gz....I think this will be more cool outside.

I tried to go CCPM with my Belt-CP, but I'm not ready... Those are hard and a lot more scary lol.

I really like the BOL now since researching it and it comes in green....so for that price, I think it would be a fun ship to pilot....

pgroom_68

Hey again Pilot_guy,

...believe me - the BOL is fun (I own three 2.4G Big Lamas now - a red, and two "tri-coloured) One of them is the brushless [link=http://www.rc711.com/shop/24g-esky-3dpro-brushless-metal-big-lama-4ch-rtf-flightsim-p-2180.html?cPath=165_121_123]"ultimate"[/link] from rc711.com in HongKong! All three Eskys are brilliant birds[sm=49_49.gif]

The BOL that I fly the most is the [link=http://www.miracle-mart.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4219&zenid=0d668381b00efdf411b7ccf00bcf94a8]standard 2.4G red[/link]. When you get a chance order [link=http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270604549684&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2519wt_754]THIS[/link] adjustable flybar - just for the weights!! I don't own a green BOL - yet![sm=wink_smile.gif]

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]
P.S. I thought you'd like a [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VqwjPVn0y0]couple of video clips (1)[/link] of me [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlO38d01SrE]flying the red BOL (2)[/link] in a big room - fairs fair

Pilot_Guy

My reasons for getting the bigger Lama are, Flying indoor sucks after a while and although I got the Dauphin to do ok outside, it is still very hard to control outside. I tried my CCPM Belt-Cp..I'm simply not ready to crash that over and over. I want a chopper that I can fly outside in a "little" bit of wind.

So Does the BOL do fairly well in a little wind? Or am I just waisting my time and it gets blown around like the Dauphin?

I'm also leaning toward the HB FP version 2.

Nice videos, Peter..... I would really like to try the BOL.. The Ultimate version..well.....nice, but not in the budget lol.