yamaha74

Any body know where a good used F2C Diesel engine can be purchased from for
a fairly decent price ? ...theres a Profi , and a Lerner on ebay right now, but they are
both priced around $250 + ...anything cheaper available ?
Any classified links for F2C engines / planes / parts ?

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

Perhaps your best bet in North America at least, would be to post your request on the Delphi Forums C/L racing forum at:


http://forums.delphiforums.com/

The group is called called CLracing and you will have to join up to post.

Otherwise there's the NCLRA but that's probably the same group anyway.

Good luck, Ray

HWM77

Hi Yamaha74 dont buy other peoples problems,it is easy enough to make your own,buy your own engines new ,find some one in the racing circles to help,just a .bit of advice

yamaha74

thanks for the advice. i work in a CNC machine shop, and i build prototype billet race engines for karts and bikes, etc. Have always been intrigued by the compression and torque a diesel has, ...so i went searching for the best Diesels to check out and develop. F2C came up as one of the highest performance / rpm going, so i decided to look into their design, specs, etc. Imagine a 100 to 150 cc engine
scaled around F2C design. ...obviously wouldnt rev as high, but the torque and overall horsepower, would be "insane", compared to conventional 2 strokes running VP fuels, at about 14 to 18 : 1 compression ratio. ...and the best part would be, no ignition system to mess around with !

Recycled Flyer

If you simply want to learn about F2C then please read this -
http://modelenginenews.org/cardfile/gp2.html

and this -
http://home.wxs.nl/~wakke007/fmv/fmv_1.htm

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

There is nothing special about F2C diesel engines that isn't task specific. Scaling up a model diesel engine is troublesome because the combustion process doesn't scale the way you'd like. Fuel doesn't have a significant impact on an engines power output. If you have an engine making good power at 14-18:1 on gasoline and spark, changing to kerosene and ether isn't going to improve that.

yamaha74

Fuel has "everything" to do with power output. You can't run an engine at 14 - 18:1 on pump gas without detonation
.....we've been dynoing engines for 15 years, and oxygenated VP113 fuel adds about 10 to 20% power
gains over a less compression ratio pump gas engine.
Thats like saying running a glow engine on 5% nitromethane, then changing engine specs
and running 50% nitro wont perform better.
Diesels run much higher compression, usually in the 20 to 25:1ratio, which is typically
why they have so much torque.
Audi can run a diesel in Lemans series and win
Gale Banks is getting enormous power out of diesels, compared to gasoline engines

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

I assume you understand the difference between a model "diesel" (HCCI really) and an injected turbo charged diesel.

Octane rating of fuel effects power output when a spark ignition engine is knock limited. So consider what you are trying to do on a fuel with an octane rating of maybe 20.

Comparing high octane to pump gas in NOT the same as 5% glow to 50% glow. That power increase comes mostly from the fuel carrying it's own oxygen.There are plenty of glow engines running 0% nitromethane and making tons of power look up F3D engines. When you begin talking about changing compression ratios to make use of a fuel's characteristics the "fuel makes no difference" comparison goes out the window.

JohnAV8R

Gentlemen, a nice discussion on what's going on in the engine.
Does anyone have suggestions on what might be used to replace the ether in the model diesel fuel mix?

I am hoping to try a dual fuel, dual needle valve system with the first bring up regular model diesel fuel with 30%ether, the second fuel then being introduced into the engine once it has warmed up.
I am hoping that once hot, the model diesel engine may run with much less ether , or hopefully no ether at all.

Last year, Andy posted a video of a .15 Norvel diesel running on bio diesel, no ether. It appeared to be working in his set up.
Thanks,
John

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

You'll find no problem running kerosene without ether once the engine is hot. Throttling can be tricky. The engine will be much more susceptible to cooling off at part throttle, and needles will be more sensitive. Running something other than kerosene you'll be stressing the engine with increased compression ratios. I'm not sure about biodiesel. I've seen Andy's experiments, but I had a tough time getting regular pump diesel to run in a four stroke diesel. Fuel atomization and vaporization is a problem.

DeviousDave

Don't forget that changing the fuel mid-run will require a compression setting change.

Guys, I know Greg comes off as dry in his technical explanations of how things work in diesel engines, it's not because he's being snippy or high and mighty about it.. It's just the way he describes things. The way he types out a reply here is exactly the same way that he speaks to me when I visit-he's not being "not nice". You'd have to know him and see what he works with to know that there isn't a problem here.

JohnAV8R

Greg, Dave, thanks for the info.
There's nothing "dry" in a good explanation....I like it like it is!
I had forgotten about perhaps having to increase the compression without the ether.
I'm not going to be looking for maximum output, just a steady run, without a cool off and the diesel quitting.
Even being able to run with a small portion of ether will help. I expect this will all work better in the larger .40 to .60 size diesels.
I'm hoping that I will be able to use the same compression setting with the fuel switch and rely on the mixture setting.

John

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

I think you'll be able to match compression by adjusting the amount of DII in the fuel mixes. Matching the needle setting will be difficult. It might be worth starting a new thread about your project.

JohnAV8R

yamaha74 , sorry, I guess I got off track.

Have you checked out the following for the F2C engines, for example the Profi.


http://technohobby.com.ua/online-sho...ofi-25cc-f2-cn

toconnell

try.. www.diesel-plus.com they have everything diesel.

Or www.toolsupplycenter.com

also if you need lights.. www.ledlites4rvs.com is a good option.

good luck man.

earlwb

Well considering that many people converted the big SuperTigre G4500 (45cc) over to diesel means it ought to work even if you go larger.
But the model diesel engines burn a ether, kerosene, and oil mix for their fuel. The model diesel engines are really compression ignition engines and not true diesels in that sense. The true diesels tend to use a fuel injector to inject the diesel fuel at just the right moment under very high pressure into the combustion chamber and they do not normally use an adjustable compression screw and contrapiston.

So I would be interested in seeing a big 100cc compression ignition engine myself. I think it would be pretty neat.
Now someone on this forum or that other forum, had attempted to convert a large weedeater type of gasoline engine over to a compression ignition engine earlier. I can't find the thread for it now. But at the time, they machined off the head and made a diesel head with the contra-piston and screw adjuster. But the engine fired up and promptly broke as the mounting studs broke off part of the crankcase. I lost track of the thread, so i don't know if they made a new crankcase or not for it.

A large 50cc or 100cc or so engine might run Ok on straight kerosene and oil too. it is able to retain more heat to aid in the combustion than the smaller engines and thus may only need ether to help get it started when cold.

123Cat

Greg

Can you give me a steer on how much DII I would need , in half a litre of fuel for a plain bearing 2.5 , C/L model, I forgot I had a small bottle of it here ,

It was 2% I think, ?? that makes it

1 Ml

Recycled Flyer

Mmm, maths was never my strong point but if -
100% = 500ml
10% = 50ml
1% = 5ml
then 2% = 10ml

John is right!

JohnAV8R

2% of 500 mL is 10 mL

more diesel info on F2C diesel, see


* NEW SV-F2F ENGINE for Junior TR or F2F. New Head & shaft. Swiss BB INFO: http://www.clubtamaran.com/SV-INFO.htm

* PARRA 2.5 DIESEL AAC. 2011 batch. Perfect adjusting avoid front fuel leakage of previous batch INFO: http://www.clubtamaran.com/parramotorING.htm

* NEW PARRA 2.5 GOLD Special 2011 serie. (ABC & SSC) with racing Swiss bearings. INFO: http://www.clubtamaran.com/parramotorING.htm

* NEW F2D COMBAT ITEMS. Props, Models, lines, engines,6 mm silencers, etc. INFO: http://www.clubtamaran.com/combate.htm

earlwb

What is "DII"?

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

Diesel Ignition Improver.

earlwb

Oh, OK, thanks.

yamaha74

...im guessing it will take some time to develop, but should be pretty interesting. Lawnmower sized diesel engines have been around for
a long time, granted they are 4 stroke, direct injection, use glow plugs, pump diesel, etc...but a50 to 100cc2stroke high performance
diesel / compression ignition would sure be cool.

earlwb

One problem with the utility engines is that the cylinder and head are one piece. it is difficult to machine off the head and figure out how to bolt on a diesel conversion head with a contra-piston built in. Larger over 50cc size two stroke engines with a bolt on head are getting pretty rare nowadays.

yamaha74

Checking out the Davis Diesel site, they sell a conversion kit for engines as big as the Supertigre 2000, to 4500,
which is 2.76 cu in / 45 cc's ...so technically, a big bore compression ignition diesel has been done already,
and the reviews mostly seem positive.

http://www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/price_list.html

...not sure how much bigger it could get without having problems, but im guessing it "might" be possible tomake a big bore
F2C style high performance diesel / compression ignition, high rpm engine

I found an MK-17 to kind of copy the design off, but according to the info i've found, only revs to about 13 to 16 K, depending on prop etc

F2C specs might be a little better to start designing off, since some of them rev to about 28k, ..."apparently' ?

I also have an old ICA 100cc 2 stroke Kart engine sitting in the garage that might be a good project to try and convert
to a compression ignition engine. Running on VP race gas, they typically rev to about 18 to 20k, and have a
steel, non-chrome / non-nikasil press in sleeve, that can be overbored fairly easy. The carb on it has hi an lo speed
needle jets, similar to an RC engine, as well as a pulse pump.
Just need to find some metal that is the same material as the sleeve to make a contra piston out of
so they expand at the same rate. Some of the higher end kart engines also have tried using
brass combustion chambers, instead of aluminum, to keep the heat in the head more consistant,
...wonder if that would work for a contra piston without havind problems with the heat
in dissimilar metals expanding and contracting at different rates ? ...only one way to find out, i guess !