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Deezil model Engines (again)

Old 06-01-2011, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Depending on the mood of the Ebay auction buyers, somewhere around $100 depending on condition. it varies a lot from one week to the next, depending on who wants one more than the next guy.  The CS and Burford replicas command a much better price as does the Valentine Dymo replicas too (what the Deezel is based on).

Old 07-13-2011, 10:34 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

I just acquired a new-in-box Deezil which seems to be one of the better ones. It has a well-made one-piece counterbalanced crank and turns freely withpretty good compression - plenty for a start, I'd say. I'm in the process of cleaning it up, and we'll know more after I've done so.

More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that the original Deezils released in early 1948 at $12.95 (of which this may be one)were been far better made than the later junk examples. George Aldrich's reported comment that many of the early Deezils "ran like a Mills" may not be too wide of the mark. I suspect that despite their claims to the contrary,Gotham Hobby had nothing to do with the design and development of the Deezil - most likely they took over an existing design by others and trashed it down to the $1.95 paperweight that it became. That's exactly what AHC did in the 1930's with the Loutrel, junking it down to the G.H.Q. And Gotham Hobby was operated by members of the same family - the Winstons.

Stay tuned ..........................
Old 07-13-2011, 11:02 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

I was looking at one of my engines the other day. I was thinking about cutting a ring groove in the top of the piston of one of my engines and getting Bowman to make a ring for it. Then see if that fixes the problem where the engines had a poor piston to cylinder fit or not. The pistons are really long and look like they have plenty of room on top for a ring groove to be cut in them.
Old 07-14-2011, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Rings in diesels are always a bit problematic. A far better fix is simply to make a new piston. I did that with one of my original Deezils after first lapping the cylinder to get a better finish. Of course, I also made a new contra piston, rod and shaft as well as usinga steel wrist pin. The resulting engine looks exactly like the original on the outside and is exactly to original spec. It starts and runs beautifully. This was actually quitea good desogn by the standards of its day - too badit wasn't properl;y executed!

The one that I justacquired is actually pretty good all round. I haveno doubt at all that it would run. It has a well-made and accurately-fitted one-piece shaft along with a wrist pin which ismade of bronze andis pressed into the piston bosses - far stronger thanthe usual floating brass component.It also has quite good compression both top and bottom. The one problemis that it retains the brass con-rod, which is a highly unsuitable material for a diesel rod. For that reason, I probably won't run it even though I'm sure that it would start up just fine.

Wish I knew how to insert images into these posts!
Old 07-14-2011, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

To insert a picture, there is a icon on the quick reply box, just to the left of the You Tube icon. You click on it and you can paste in the URL link to the picture you want to include in the post.  In the regular reply screen they use a different icon for including pictures, but it works the same.

Now you need to post the picture on some website like PhotoBucket.com for example. Then you copy the URL link for the picture and paste it into the little pop up window when you click on the icon here.

when i was last looking at metals specs, brass appeared to have a higher tensile strength than aluminum did. So it may not be all that bad to use a brass connecting rod. Especially since these engines don't rev up all that much anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts. I had done a few RC glow engine conversions and since those engines had piston rings on them, it seemed like a reasonable idea to maybe try it. I am still thinking about it.
Old 07-17-2011, 09:57 AM
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Well. although I was somewhat hesitant to actually run this clearly unused example, I decided that the search for knowledge more or less obligated me to give it a try! It turned out that the “good” compression was somewhat illusory, being largely created by the presence of assembly oil in the engine. When diluted with a fuel prime, much of the compression went away. Despite this, I was actually able to hand-start the engine fairly easily using an oil prime. However,after six to eight seconds of running the oil prime had run through andthe viscosity of the oil in the fuel had become reduced by heat. Not only that, but the metallurgy is such thatthe piston fit becomes looser as things heat up.
As a result of these three factors, after around 8 secondsall vestiges of compression completely disappeared and the engine simply died - no amount of fiddling with the comp screw would keep it going. I couldn'teven keep it running long enough to get apicture!After a short cool-down period it would re-start easily with the oil prime, but the same pattern kept repeating itself. Ohwell ..... at least it upheld the Gotham tradition apart from the fact that it did actually start!!
There’s no doubt at all in my mind that this engine would run fine with a tighter piston fit. All other fits on this example are excellent. I could of course rebore it and thus get it going, but it would then be highly non-original. So I’ve decided to leave well alone, thus preserving its original NIB condition.

I do have my original Gotham Deezil with the precision-made replacement replica replacement parts, so at least I can experience the Deezil as it should have been!!
Old 07-17-2011, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

ORIGINAL: Diesel Die-hard

Well. although I was somewhat hesitant to actually run this clearly unused example, I decided that the search for knowledge more or less obligated me to give it a try! It turned out that the “good†compression was somewhat illusory, being largely created by the presence of assembly oil in the engine. When diluted with a fuel prime, much of the compression went away. Despite this, I was actually able to hand-start the engine fairly easily using an oil prime. However, after six to eight seconds of running the oil prime had run through and the viscosity of the oil in the fuel had become reduced by heat. Not only that, but the metallurgy is such that the piston fit becomes looser as things heat up.
As a result of these three factors, after around 8 seconds all vestiges of compression completely disappeared and the engine simply died - no amount of fiddling with the comp screw would keep it going. I couldn't even keep it running long enough to get a picture! After a short cool-down period it would re-start easily with the oil prime, but the same pattern kept repeating itself. Oh well ..... at least it upheld the Gotham tradition apart from the fact that it did actually start!!
There’s no doubt at all in my mind that this engine would run fine with a tighter piston fit. All other fits on this example are excellent. I could of course rebore it and thus get it going, but it would then be highly non-original. So I’ve decided to leave well alone, thus preserving its original NIB condition.

I do have my original Gotham Deezil with the precision-made replacement replica replacement parts, so at least I can experience the Deezil as it should have been!!
Fit is perfect, but there is no taper in the sleeve hence the engine will run a short time before the engine stopped cause the sleeve was expanded by heat of combustion..

Do it as i wrote here:

Lets take a look at a typical lapping job - that of producing a fine finished bore and piston for an IC engine. In fact, piston and bore are both lapped in separate operations (NOT both together). All of these operations will be carried out in the lathe (and I need hardly mention the importance of keeping lapping compounds off the machine, particularly the chuck and slideways). For the bore an expanding lap is ideal, and this should be some 3-4 times the total length of the bore. The first grade of abrasive would be mixed with light machine oil (10W or lighter) and liberally coated on the inside of the workpiece. Similarly, the slurry would be added to the outside (and inside assuming it is of the ventilated type) of the lap. The lathe would be started at about 300rpm (for a nominal 1" bore) and the lap passed rapidly through the bore, keeping it moving back and forth without it coming out the bore. How to hold the lap? well, perhaps the best way is with a 'floating' tailstock holder, and failing this holding with the hand is a method as good as any. Be careful when holding the lap by hand as it's possible it may jam, hold it lightly and expect the unexpected. Remember also that unless the lap is maintained dead parallel with the bore (an almost impossible task) it will tend to bell-mouth the bore a little - hence the reason for making the work a little longer than finished size and trimming to length later. When the inside of the bore has achieved an all-over grey appearance, with the fine scratches appearing even and criss-crossing both ways, and with no evidence of any deeper scratches (as might be left by the reamer) it's time to move onto the next finer grade. The work will have to be removed from the chuck to clean it properly, and this should be done with clean paraffin oil followed by hot soapy water. The same procedure applies to the lap and all traces of the abrasive must be removed. The process continues until you reach the 'flour' grade of abrasive by which time the finish on the workpiece should be very fine indeed. A final polished finish, should this be deemed necessary, can be achieved using metal polish (diluted Autosol, or some liquid chrome cleaner). The lap should be a separate 'finishing' lap so there is no chance of contamination with the coarser grades of abrasive which might be embedded in the main lap. The piston is treated in a similar way except of course the lap is female. Work will continue with the coarse abrasive until (using the un-trimmed bore as a gauge) the piston will not *quite* enter the bore. At this stage finer grade abrasives are used and work continues until the piston will just enter the bore tightly. At this stage, it is usual to finish mating the two parts by using metal polish and briefly using the piston to lap the bore directly. Great care needs be taken but this method ensures that the fit is good for the entire length of the bore.

To test the fit is correct:
1:The sleeve and piston is dry and free for oil = Piston is tight in the sleeve
2:The sleeve and piston is oiled = The piston is moving easy in the sleeve
3: The last and important! The piston is loose in bottom of sleeve and tight a bit before the piston is passed to TDC.

Old 07-26-2011, 05:35 PM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

My recenty experience with my LNIB Gotham original Deezil that would start but wouldn't keep running has raised an important philosophical question.  That is, should one leave this engine as-is or should one make a new properly fitted piston and rod for it?  To do so would get it into running condition, no question, but it would no longer be original Gotham. What would this do to its interest and value as a collectible?

I suppose the qiuestion coul be re-phrased thus - would you pay more or less for an original Deezil that had been upgraded to running condition by being rebored? I could easily make a new piston for it as well as a new sturdier rod, but should I??  I already have one example which has been similarly upgraded and has a replacement one-piece shaft as well. So I know that this approach works!!

Comments please!!

Old 07-26-2011, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Ask yourself this simple question, what is rarer?

A fully functional Deezil or one that is fit for landfill?

I know which would get live crowds gathering and which would best be left dead and forgotten at the cemetery!
Old 08-02-2011, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

I agree. But as I've mentionned before : a bad engine can become very collectable, everybody back to the modelshop, the shop owner complaining to the importer. Nobody wants to even think about the engine. Find one now !
And there are others. The German made Rauch. After WW2 the Germans were not even allowed to produce model airplane engines. What did Ernst Rauch do ? He mounted the engine on a Meccano like stand and fitted a flywheel.
It could now be sold because this fell under educational toys. So everybody trew the bright red stand away. And the engines were worthless. Find one today. And, the lithographed box is even rarer than the engine. Anyway, what I do'nt understand
is that so many thousends of engines and kits were sold before anyone complained. But that GHQ does nevertheless have it's place in a collection. What diesel collector would'nt like to have the original OS-15 Diesel. Was not a good engine.
Welding up cranks ? I have seen my dear gone friend Harry de Blanger do it. But in a fixture. And machined after that. All other brazings fail indeed . Still they must have done it in a jig. That's all gone with CNC. Are there still bad engines beeing made ?
it was nice talking to you all


ORIGINAL: earlwb

We need to remember that we only hear about the poor folks who couldn't get a engine to work, or run, or that failed in some manner. There were quite a few people using them and not having any problems with the engines. They just run the engines in their model airplanes. Being in the USA at the time, model diesels weren't popular to start with, glow engines were all the rage at the time, so many people couldn't figure out how to start and run the engines. usually if someone had someone with diesel experience help them, the engines would work. Now as to how well the engine would work might be a arguable subject too.

Yeah I did. It appears that they did braze the crankweb and crankpin on it. There is a thin layer of of a brass colored like coating on the end. If you look at the pic of the inside of the crankcase view, you can see the circular brazing layer on the crankweb to crankshaft. But at the joints you can also see the brazing. it sort of looks like they heated the assembly up, smeared some plux on it and dipped it into molten bronze. But I can agree it may or may not be very good in any case. But if the people assembling the crankshaft had good tight fits and good brazing joints it ought to be fine.

It does help show where they could screw up in making the engine.
1) brazing on the mounting lug flange on the cylinder sleeve. Get it a little crooked and then the cylinder is misaligned. At the time, that was a big cost saver as you didn't have to machine a large chunk of steel down into a cylinder as a one piece unit.
2) brazing the crankshaft together out of three pieces. Get it wrong and the crankshaft is crooked. Many engine companies have done this too. Especially when they want a hardened crankpin but leave the crankshaft softer. So there isn't as big of a concern here. But the companies weld the crankshaft together not braze it. Although on the crankpin, I see a lot of them just pressing it in very carefully. Machining the crank as one piece means you have to machine down a large chunk of steel again. But this is a pretty large cost saver using a multipiece crank.
3.) using a brass gudgeon pin. Is too easy to break of course. That saved costs as they didn't have to used snap rings or small thin bushings on the tips.

I think the problem is mostly Gotham Hobbies at the time having employees who didn't care about fitting the parts together and giving it that extra attention and care that the other engine companies did. It fits in with the infamous engines that America's Hobby Center did at that era too, like the GHQ engine for example. But they had what appears to be a money maker of a sorts, make a engine as cheap as possible and it'll sell no matter what. But as information started spreading faster and faster, then more people would find the engines are poorly done, and they'd sell less and less. which shows in the advertisements for it over the time it was made, where at first it cost $5.95 and at the end they were blowing them out at $1.95. I would assume the early made versions would work better than the last of the engines made. The two hobby shops Gotham and AHC owners were all related to each other, so I can see them both using their shady business practices to advantage.


ORIGINAL: peterburford

Gordon told me, a potential customer once asked if his "Deezil" would run.
Dad replied, "Of course not! It's a replica."
The person bought one.
Peter
Peter, that is pretty funny.


Old 08-02-2011, 11:21 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

I think at the time, communication was really slow between the modellers about the engines. They had no internet, so word would spread slowly via competitions and meets where they congregated and talked with each other. But Gotham and AHC tended to not advertise in hobby related magazines and tended to put ads in other magazines etc, such as Popular Science and Popular Mechanics. So they would tend to get first time users or people not involved already in the hobby to buy the engines. Then those people had little to no way to communicate with others that they had a problem with the engine. So Gotham and AHC had a rather interesting business model on how to sell something that maybe possibly would work if you were lucky.

Today it is harder to make bad engines. With the internet word would spread super fast. It has already happened with some engines too. But I think the engine quality we see today is much better than in the past too. Way back before and after WWII a unscrupulous company could get away with making junk and selling it, but today that is really hard to do. But as you stated people tended to throw away the bad engines, thus they become more rare and even more collectable for the suviving examples.

Yeah it is a tough call to repair a engine or not. Leave it 100% original or make a runner out of it by replacing or repairing it. it is a tough call on having a runner or a collectable.

Anyway, I guess if I saved the engines I have and let my son sell them on Ebay after I die, he might get some money for them with the collector market. But I would rather try to get one to run myself. So I am considering ideas for it. The first easier approach I thought of was to use a piston ring, then one doesn't have to hone the cylinder nor make a new piston for it or maybe a new rod too. So except for the piston ring, it keeps everything original. Now on some engines the crankshaft tended to bend, so maybe a new crank and or rod to match would be needed too.

Then there is the brass gudgeon pin, yeah that was sort of a sneaky way of doing it. But it is a sort of logical solution to the problem. So a steel gudgeon pin is best. But the problem is it you can't just stick in brass spacers on the gudgeon pin ends, as it is exposed to the intake and exhaust ports. So one has to come up with something to keep the gudgeon pin ends out of the ports or brass spacers that would stay put and not come loose either. Machining a couple of little tiny grooves for snap rings or retainer rings would be good too, but that is hard to do on a small piston. You would probably want to do that chore before you machine the piston to fit to keep down the marks and scratches.





Old 08-02-2011, 02:43 PM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

My point was that a standard box stock Deezil is not that rare (so I have heard) - lots of them have been junked and thrown away so how collectable are they?

But a running example certainly is, the rarity is in the functionality not the scarcity.

Cheers.
Old 08-02-2011, 08:15 PM
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I suppose I'm a member of the last generation that is going to care much about the "originality" of a given engine. In the case of the Deezil, Gotham original = non-runner!! My concern is that a revamped Deezil that runs may be taken by someone in the future as original, imparting a cachet to the engine that it really doesn't deserve. I'm not in favour of rewriting the record fora given engine!

With respect to Recycled's question regarding the collectibility of the Gotham Deezil, I think the marketplace has been answering that question for a long time now. The prices that "good" examples of these things command never cease to amaze me - this for an engine that is pretty much guaranteed not to run!! But those prices say that the Gotham Deezil is definitely seen as a legtimate collectible.

How common are they?? Boxed examplesseem to be fairly uncommon, but there appear to be a fair number of unboxed ones about. This makes the prices that they command all the more surprising. Gotham claimed to have sold over 100,000 of them, and if only 5% have survived in "good" shape, that still leaves a good few floating around out there. They're certainly not in the "unobtanium" class by any means.

Having said all of the above, I must now confess to having succumbed to the siren persuasions of Recycled by making a properlyfitted piston for my near-running Deezil (see my earlier post) with the one-piece shaft. To give an indication of how far off the original piston was, the new one has a diameter that is almost a full thou greater! I also made a new rod since the original was (and is!) a rather poor design with a way-too-narrow small end which would wear instantly and would allow the rod to "wobble" off line, with potentially dire consequences. The rest of the engine remains as it came from Gotham. To keep the record straight, I will keep the original parts in the box with the engine(which is LNIB) along with a short note to any future owner explaining what I did. I have no doubt that some future owner will probably present this as one of the few running original Gotham Deezils in existence, but I'm doing about all that I can to ciircumvent that.

Normally I'd make such a piston out of cast iron - my previously-sorted "running" Gotham Deezil has a piston of that material.However, the original Deezil used a steel piston, so my new piston for the LNiBexample is of that material also.There is one point to watch if anyone else thinks about trying the same approach. You have to install the rod first because the angle through which you have to tilt the rod to get it on when the piston is fitted is too great for the rod bearing to slip over the crankpin. You have to install the piston and wrist pin after the rod is in place. The thing is that the induction port at the rear of this engine's cylinderis ususually large - far bigger than the 0.157 in. dia. of the wrist pin. So you can't use a fully floating wrist pin, since this could slip out to the rear and foul the induction port. I made the bosses in the replacement piston in such a way that the wrist pin slides easily through the front boss but is a moderate press fit in ths rear boss. This means that it can't slip out to the rear, and even if it could do so slipping out to the front isn't an issue since the transfer port is smaller than the pin and thus can't be fouled. The main point to watch is that if disassembly is required, the pin has to be pressed out to the front. Rather like PAW, only in their case you push the pin out to the rear. Again like PAW, I punch-marked the piston crown to ensure correct disassembly and reassembly should the need ever arise.

I'll give this engine a run or two and let y'all know how it goes. I have little doubt that it will run well - heck, I got it going with the old piston fitted (see earlier post), though it woudn't keep going on that piston. My previously-sorted Gotham original is a superb runner.

If I ever figure out how to paste images into these posts, I'll share some piccies.
Old 08-03-2011, 03:20 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Cool, thanks for the info.
Steel Piston. Wow! I never thought of that, I'll have to check mine.

Old 08-03-2011, 02:39 PM
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I have heard that as long as the liner and piston have a Rockwell hardness difference of about 80 then using steel for both isn't really an issue.
Old 08-03-2011, 04:20 PM
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Quite right - the rule is one hard, the other soft. And contrary to expectations, it's the harder material that wears the most!! This is because particles of the harder material become embedded in the surface of the softer material, turning it into a lap. Look at Cox, who used hardened steel pistons in soft leaded steel cylinders. When the fit became too loose, you just threw in a new piston and happiness was restored!!This isbecause most of the wear was on the hardened piston.

The main issue with using a steel piston is that,unlike cast iron, steel doesn't "grow" over the first few dozen or so heat cycles, thus taking up any break-in wear. So you have to get a really fine finish on the piston surface and also need to get the piston fit pretty near perfect right from the get-go - just very slightly stiff, but not unduly so. It will then wear to a perfect fit and become work-hardened during the process. The Deezil cylinder appears to be common-or-garden mild steel tubing which won't work-harden to any great extent, so you want to make the piston out of a high-tensile steel that will work harden during the initial running period (cast iron does this too). As far as Ican tell, the original Deezil piston was mild steel, which means that the engine wouldn't have lasted too long even if it did run - it was a soft-on-soft combination. By contrast, a properly-fitted work-hardening steel piston in a soft steel cylinder should wear really well.

Speaking of which, I just finished testing my LNIBearly Gotham Deezil with the replacement piston. I seem to have nailed the fit - the engine started second flick (albeit backwards!!), and ran perfectly. It feels superb, with outstanding compression yet no trace of binding. Starting was dead easy throughout. Compression remained just as good when hot, with no tendency to tighten up and sag. I put about 20 minutes on it in 5-minute runs with complete cooling in between - all that I judged the neighbours would tolerate, although it ain't that loud! It held up well - the shaft (which is a one-piece Gotham original) took it in stride, so it must be made of reasonable steel Although I kept the engine undercompressed and rich due to the need to break in the new components, I did do a quick spot-check at the 20 minute mark. It managed 6,700 rpm on the Taipan 10x4 GF prop that I was using- a little down on the 7,300 that my previously-sorted Gotham original manages on the same prop. Still, that's not too bad for an engine of this vintage and specification.And it will do better following some more running, no doubt (not that I plan to run this one much).

So another Gotham original is up and running!! This shows that if you're lucky enough to get one of the early examples with the one-piece crankshaft, bronze main bearing bushing, bronze wrist pinand properly-finished cylinder, all that you need is a new well-fitted high tensile steel piston to get it going. Not hard to make ..................... I'd also recommend making a new rod with awider small end bearing - the stock item is just too skinny to last. Do that, and you'll have a pretty good engine!

The really sad thing about all of this is that we now see the Deezil as a perfectly OKdesign that was let down solely by the appallingly low standards to which it was manufactured. With a better piston fit and retaining the one-piece crankshaft, this would have been a perfectly acceptable engine by 1948 standards.
Old 08-04-2011, 10:28 AM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Thanks for the info about the cylinders and pistons, that is most fascinating.
I am glad it worked out on your engine. I'll have to make a new piston for mine too.

Old 08-04-2011, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Diesel Die-hard,

I learned a lot about diesels and diesel break-in from the Canadian diesel combat site. Did you provide any information for that site?

http://www3.telus.net/dieselcombat/index.htm

It has a wealth of information!!

George
Old 08-04-2011, 04:11 PM
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Yup - guilty as charged!! I wrote the break-in, PAW care-and-feeding and diesel fuel articles on that site.
Old 08-04-2011, 04:18 PM
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

Earl. if you intend to make a new piston to get an original Deezil running, make sure it's the example with the one-piece shaft! As that YouTube video showed, the brazed-up shafts last only a few seconds if you ever get one of these engines to run. By contrast, the original one-piece shaft in the engine that I just got going stood up very well to the 20 minutes or so that I gave it. The original Gotham Deezil that i got going earlier has a one-piece shaft of my own making. If you want to run an engine with the brazed shaft, the making of a new one-piece shaft is essential.

Good luck!!
Old 08-04-2011, 06:39 PM
  #46  
earlwb
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Default RE: Deezil model Engines (again)

I happen to have two with the brazed crankshaft and one with the one piece crankshaft in it.
I first might try mixing and matching pistons to see if one fits better or not.
Yeah I'll probably need to make a crankshaft for the other two if the one works. besides a better rod too.

Old 09-28-2014, 07:17 PM
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A Gordon Burford 'Deezil' Replica.


If someone could upload a copy of the instruction sheet supplied with the engine I would be very grateful.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:26 PM
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Here they are Dereck-the original sheet is foolscap so slightly too big to fit my scanner in a single pass....

ChrisM
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Old 10-01-2014, 10:19 PM
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You are a gem. Thanks Chris. This one is in 'as it left GB's workshop' condition. Will post a running report shortly.
Old 10-01-2014, 11:07 PM
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Mine-obtained second hand from a good mate (so I know its provenance-and recall him purchasing it at the time-ca '87 or thereabouts) has had a bit of running-and is just like a good Comp Special-proving-as mentioned in earlier posts in this thread that there was nothing wrong with the original design, only the execution.....

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