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Thread: Club Mills!


  1. #51

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Earl-1977 is about the earliest the Indian Mills would have been available on the western market-the original Doonsides were around 1974-so your Indian is a very early one indeed. I recall Mark Elder buying two indian Mills in the early 80's-not long after i'd bought mine (and largely on my reluctant recommendation-I think they were about 29 pounds sterling from the UK.) One was more or less OK-the other in his words was 'rubbish'-by the time he'd finished running them in there was less than 500 rpm difference between them! The good one took about 30 mins running in-the rubbish one about 2 hours........so your experience is not untypical. My experience with them ( I have two-both bought new) is that they run in to a comparable performance to an original english made Mills-but the fits and material specs are a lot poorer-so they wear out fairly fast as well! That was certainly true of the early ones. That being said-the recent ones-from what I've seen and heard, recent ones are a whole heap better. Short life or not-30 secs of engine runn at a time-or whatever you're using-takes a lot of time to accumulate even a couple of hours running-so unless you're running for 10 minutes at a time in RC , short life is a relative opinion.........

    ChrisM
    'ffkiwi'

  2. #52
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    RE: Club Mills!

    Thanks FFKiwi for the information.
    Yeah I had bought two of the engines from our, more or less, popular Hobby Lobby store in 1977. Hobby Lobby specialized in importing and selling items we normally don't see or get in the USA from the rest of the world. At the time they sold more exotic, internal combustion engines too, but now they are all electric. We didn't have the internet so the engines were purchased based on a advertisement in their mail order catalogue. Their business was primarily mail order at the time. They have a store front, of which I had visited once when I was driving across the country, located in Tennessee. I had bought a bunch of items from them for my Hotliner plane then too.

    I was pleasantly surprised when the engine finally started coughing and popping smoke and wanting to run as I was flipping the prop. Then when it caught and ran the prime off was a good sign. But you are likely correct in that it might be wore out by the time it gets up to running good. But it was some good entertainment though. Better than watching TV.

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  3. #53

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Hello Chris... Just a note to say that my two Indian Mills both start easily, but one runs markedly better than the other. I don't know their history at all, but one of them seems rather more rough in appearance than the other, but runs better!! My CS .75 MIlls is taking forever to break in....gets hot and stops after about 40-55 seconds using my 25%K - 35%C - 40%E +2% DII homebrew. However it seems to be significantly better built than the two IndianMills. The little MPJet 040 Classic runs very hot too, even with stepped-up 50% ether content. I like its slightly larger option spun alum. tank too. I've been breaking it on on a 7x4 prop....maybe I should reduce it to a 6x3. What's your take on this? Bill

  4. #54

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Up the prop to a windsor (master airscrew) 8x3. More thrust and better fuel consumption.

    Props smaller than 7 x 4 are not the go with these engines.

  5. #55
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    RE: Club Mills!

    Fiery is correct, the Mills .75 style engines are long stroke engines that do not rev up high much. But they have a lot of torque for their size though. The 8x3 prop seems to work out quite well. A good engine can turn the 8x3 at around 7,000 to 7,500 RPMs. To run a smaller prop means you have to increase the compression more, but the engines are not that strong, so it doesn't help them out any to run a smaller prop.

    Bill, if you remember, when you were at my place we were running 8x3 props on the small engines as we tested them. We were even running a 8x3 prop on the Cox .049 diesel engine too. We took the 8x3 prop off of the Russian 2.5cc engine and used it on the Cox .049 engine.
    I think the Cox grey 6x3 prop was all we had at the moment that fit the one Mills .75cc engine you had though, so we were running it at a lower compression ratio and let it loaf along like that.




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  6. #56

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Bill- MP Jets are setup fairly tight-MP Jet recommend an unusually (40% castor!!) high oil content for running in-and you would do well to follow this. 50% ether is not required for these engines-or anything like it-the very very small diesels such as the Bambi, Valentines, AE .1 and .2s will benefit from a slightly higher ether level-but this is about 40% or so-45% an absolute max (unless you're talking about a fixed head diesel such as a Drone or Micron-and we're not! Ether content should normally range from 30% up to about 40% depending on the usage-it contributes nothing to power-and as your ether goes up-your power goes down-since the ether:kero ratio tends to be reversely proportional-the oil content remains fairly static at 20-25%. 50% ether is simply wasting an expensive fuel component-conversely 25% will lead to starting problems. 30% has become a practical minimum after 70 years of world wide accumulated experience. 30% allows you to lose a bit gradually and still retain adequate starting. As demonstrated on this forum (elsewhere) you can run a diesel on no ether fuel-but you need an ether based fuel to start, or a heat gun to warm the engine up. It CAN be done-but I'd never do it myself and would never recommend its adoption as general practice. FWIW I've had engines fire on CRC 5-56 when I've given them a squirt into the exhaust port and flicked them over to distribute the CRC!
    I would not recommend propping any 0.6-0.75cc sideport with less than a 7" prop for general use-unless you were trying to use them in a C/L model-and they're not at their best there. A 6x3 Cox I'd use on a 0.25 diesel! My Kalper .32 replicas love the Cox 6x3! Again they're happy-and sweet running at 7000-8000 rpm. Push them faster than that-by a smaller prop-and they're much less happy. Most of my Mills 75s and MP Jet Classics are routinely running on an 8x4 nylon (DC, Cox or Topflite for preference-Taipan at a pinch) Why-the starting is flawless, plenty of flywheel action, plenty of slipstream for cooling-and nice thin hubs [the Taipan has a very thick hub, which is why I prefer the others mentioned-but its still a damn good prop for a variety of uses-and my 1.5 diesels see it as well, or the 7x4 for max power].
    The Master 8x3 is nice too-not too much blade area-but is more rigid. I would never prop either a Mills or MP Jet with anything smaller than a 7x3, personally.

    Remember too-in contrast to what I told you by PM for running in ABC engines, these traditional construction ones should get the traditional treatment for running in-a big prop (8x4), rich setting, comp not fully peaked out, and short runs, allowing the engine to cool fully after each run [ie allow at least 5 mins between runs]. Depending on the build quality (and we all know that is very hit and miss with the Indian Mills and CS engines!] running-in could take as little as 30 minutes-or as much as 1-1/2-2 hours. I doubt any of these engines will be properly run-in with less than 30 minutes accumulated running-but my experience is that with a minimum of 30 minutes accumulated on the bench, you can then use them in a model.........
    The MP Jet build quality is very high-so one of these should last forever if you take care with the running in. The original english ones were similar-they used tool steel for the piston liner (a very unusual choice of material-AFAIK the only manufacturer to do so) but it paid off in terms of long lasting fits. You generally wore out rods and gudgeons, but not pistons on the originals. The Indian ones-though made with the original Mills tooling (ie the jigs and fixtures) used local materials, so not only was the build quality inferior, the mat specs were as well-hence the combination lead to a lot of 'dogs' and relatively short life. The early Indian ones suffered from brittle crankshafts as well-a problem that beset CS as well in the early days. Any idiot can harden steel-but it takes real skill and experience to temper it-and be able to do that repetitively batch after batch!
    As I indicated earlier-my two Indian Mills are old-being obtained very early on-about 1980 or 81-they both run well-but are increasingly hard to start, due to wear. I haven't tried my originals lately-I should do so before cleaning them for some pics to post here.

    ChrisM
    'ffkiwi'

  7. #57

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Hello, Chris. I really appreciate your taking time to teach me about these fascinating little engines. I will use the props you recommend and let you know how they work for me. I believe it was the MPJet instruction sheet that led me towards the high ether content, but I'll check again - and in any case use the proportions you suggested. And yes, using John Deere starting fluid is quite expensive, and buying real ether is just out of the question thanks to the drug industry. Thanks again. Bill

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    RE: Club Mills!

    William John Deere starter fluid is $5 a can or less at around a 30% ether mix thats enough to make 500cc a little more than a pint that goes a long way in a wee engine martin

    See you are the USA TX Davis 1/2A mix fine get it from him or tower 14.95 a qt plus shipping no fuss of making it

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    RE: Club Mills!

    AMB...thanks for the info. When I've ordered DDD's fuel from Tower for my smaller engines, they only stock the "non-1/2A" mix by the quart. So I add some more castor just to be safe, like my friend Earl suggests. It doesn't give quite the same snap as my home brew, but it sure is good for the engines over 1.3cc or so, in my experience so far. Thanks again! Bill

  10. #60

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    RE: Club Mills!

    William you are right they only stock the ABC mix guess much more demand ,( at least at Tower) Davis of course has both I just got 2 qts of the 1/2A from davis about a week ago

    martin

    Fuel expense:: the guys with the rc glow cars use high nitro fuel and runs $15 qt maybe more engines now up to 29 or so like turning on a faucet thats fuel bucks

    we have should no complaints with our fuel costs

  11. #61

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    RE: Club Mills!

    And if you want to, you can use ordinary mineral oil in your diesel!-I used to use Castrol 2-stroke oil, -the sort you use for your lawnmower, chainsaw and weed trimmer-and I've also used 2-stroke outboard motor oil-(which was blue).......leading to comments like 'what have you got in your fuel then, to be that colour?'
    In fact in the diesel heyday of the 1950's thru early 60's it was common for engine manufacturers and suppliers (DC, ED, Mercury to give several examples) to have a mineral oil based range of fuels and a castor based range-the mineral based range was generally slightly cheaper and often the 'economy' range, of whatever manufacturers fuel range you were looking at. Mixes themselves varied-as they do today-to cover running in, general purpose and racing use. The added bonus-apart from cost-was that mineral oils are far less damaging to enamel and cellulose model finishes-so were useful for scale models.
    Now I'd hesitate to recommend a mineral base oil for extreme use like team racing-(in fact most proponents are not even using castor these days-but a mix of very expensive specialised synthetics) -but for most of our uses-freeflight and RC vintage on big props and low revs, it is entirely satisfactory-as also for C/L use. I have no experience of its use in R/C models-but given that most of the time you are not operating at full throttle, I doubt that you would have any problems there either............
    We tend to forget that we ended up with castor as the yardstick by default-it was the only oil that would mix with methanol, when methanol fuels started to come into use in spark engines in the mid 1940's-and with the advent of the glowplug, and its obligatory requirement for methanol fuels, the practice continued. There was never any real need to adopt it in model diesel engines-and in fact castor and kerosene will not mix-and feel free to try this yourselves and prove it! Only the addition of ether makes the other two components miscible-if you add castor to kero or vice versa, shake it vigorously and let it settle-you will get a bi-phasic mixture (that's 2-parts or layers to you non chemists!).
    That being said-there's nothing wrong with castor in diesel fuel-nothing at all-but there are cheaper alternatives if fuel cost is a big issue for you. At the end of the day, mineral oils don't set hard like concrete in old disused engines, don't form lacquer in the bore, don't leave a sticky mess on your model.........but are probably not quite as good a lubricant as castor. You can go the other way-and use synthetic oils-but I've always found these a bit 'thin' for comfort-and personally don't use them. A lot of this is being driven by economics and convenience-unless you're a specialist fuel supplier, it is going to be an embuggerance having to keep supplies of mineral, castor and synthetics in stock-and castor works with everything-as do synthetics-whereas mineral oil is only useful for diesel (or spark ignition). If you're a user-then how many different fuel blends do you want to be carrying around in your field box? I routinely carry 5 blends as it is-3 diesel and 2 glow-all castor based-if I was to add a mineral blend diesel option as well things would get silly..........
    It comes down to personal choice and familiarity in the end-and whether you want to blend your own or buy commercial blends. My professional background (chemistry and biochemistry research) is such that I have the knowledge skills and equipment to do my own mixes very accurately-and if push comes to shove-even synthesize some of the ingredients-which I've done in the past for nitromethane, amyl nitrite and IPN. This was in extremis-and it was slow tedious and expensive-I can buy nitro these days for NZ$20 a litre-back then (early 1980s-it was virtually unobtainable-and $80 a litre.......I don't know what $80 of early 1980s money would equate to now-but lots! Diesel additives like IPN, amyl nitrate and DII were simply not obtainable here then. [of course no one batted an eyelid back then if you purchased a gallon of ether...........]

    ChrisM
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  12. #62

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    RE: Club Mills!

    At the risk of this becoming an "oils' thread.

    Mr Cornell of ED fame has tried EP 90 weight gear oil, STP and Slick 50 (!) as model diesel fuel lubricants.

    http://modelenginenews.org/cornell/p7.html

    Pe Reivers uses high performance 2 stroke oil in his MVVS diesels.

    Low revving model diesels may do well on gear oil. I have a few litres on hand [8D]. It stinks of sulphur though. I have never used mineral oils due to concerns about additives that could promote wear in our engines.

    As for STP and Slick 50 ...

  13. #63

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    RE: Club Mills!

    There used to be a great synthetic oil formulated especially for model use-Castrol MSSR-I believe it was only available in Australia and New Zealand long before the Klotz, Coolpower, Byron , FX10 or other fancy synthetics came along. I think it was developed by Castrol Australia initially which was around in the mid 70's-my club at the time (Oamaru Power MAC) got a 20 litre drum in, about 1973 or 74-and on sold it to members. Last time I priced it about 10 years ago it was $80 a 4-litre pack. AFAIK this was an EP90 synthetic gear oil with a bit of castor added. It was quite thick-similar to castor-and very clean burning. The R/C pattern fliers loved it...............worked OK in my diesels as well!

    ChrisM
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  14. #64

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Hmmmm ...

    plenty of EP 80/90 regular gear oil? - check

    plenty of castor oil? - check

    near the bottom of my winchester of mixed diesel fuel? - check

    I may experiment



  15. #65

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Do a google search fiery-I'm pretty sure it (MSSR) came up on RCU (but it could be another forum) in the past-and IIRC someone from Oz gave the constituents-but I can't put my finger on it. would be a few years back though-(2003-2004 ish?)

    ChrisM
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  16. #66
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    RE: Club Mills!

    There seems to be mixed results from users when using Castrol MSSR oil in their glow engines.
    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_86.../tm.htm#866679
    another oil thread here mentions it too.
    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401538
    They do not sell Castrol MSSR in the USA so I can't comment any about it.

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  17. #67

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Yes-I did a google search after posting-but nowhere could I find enough info-and i don't speak Spanish, Italian, Czech, Russian or Afrikaans-so a lot of the pages weren't much help. It is intriguing that in a number of places on the search it (MSSR) is referred to as a 'synthetic castor' ....which is a bit of a contradiction in terms-but would explain why I remember it as very castor-like in consistency. I wish I could find the original posting-it may even have been on ffml-the free flight mailing list. I'm almost 100% certain that it was an Australian modeller who replied with the info that it was EP 90 gear oil with some castor added-but I don't recall if there were any other components. I'm assuming that something similar could be blended from say Castrol EP90 synthetic gear oil with 20% castor (by analogy with Klotz Super Technicplate which I believe contains 20% castor and the remainder the Klotz proprietary synthetic-whatever it may be!)
    If it WAS an ffml posting it's probably two PC's ago in my life-and I'd have to dig the old one out of storage and fire it up to find it...............

    Whatever the outcome, it looks like its no longer produced for any use...........I wonder what the original main use was-I can't see Castrol going to the effort of producing a blended oil purely for use in model engines-the market simply wouldn't be big enough justify it..............

    ChrisM
    'ffkiwi'

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    RE: Club Mills!

    We have an oil thread

    from a Castrol website:

    CASTROL A747

    Features

    High performance castor/synthetic 2-stroke engine oil
    For use in highly stressed, high performance 2-stroke engines
    Excellent combustion chamber deposit control
    Very low rates of piston ring wear
    Special additives to prevent throttle slide sticking in wet conditions
    High Performance for Race Conditions
    Castrol A747 is a CASTOR/SYNTHETIC engine oil specifically designed for use in highly stressed, high performance, 2-stroke engines using premixed fuels, including water-cooled, road racing go-kart engines. Castrol A747 has been developed for race conditions where combustion chamber deposit control is essential.
    Castrol A747 is only recommended for premix systems. Its viscosity is too high for use in oil injection systems. Castrol A747 is recommended only for very high performance two-stroke engines. If used in lower performance, lower revving engines, excessive deposit formation may result.

  19. #69

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Hello Fiery...I also need a new Mills .75 fuel bowl, and I tried to reach Barton Products at "info@bamopro.co.uk", with no success. My email reported it as an invalid address. Do you by chance have a better email address that you are able to use successfully? I'd appreciate it. They have a large website but it's dated 2003, so it may be extinct. Don't know. Thanks, William

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    RE: Club Mills!


    ORIGINAL: william hanshaw

    Hello Fiery...I also need a new Mills .75 fuel bowl, and I tried to reach Barton Products at ''info@bamopro.co.uk'', with no success.* My email reported it as an invalid address.* Do you by chance have a better email address that you are able to use successfully?* I'd appreciate it.* They have a large website but it's dated 2003, so it may be extinct.* Don't know.** Thanks,* William
    William,

    Fiery asked this Q on P2, here's my answer then, and now.

    Fiery,

    Check with Dave Owen he lists a replacement tank on his pricelist.

    http://oea.modelenginenews.org/pricelist_2011-04.pdf

    Greg

    Regards
    Greg

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  21. #71

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    RE: Club Mills!


    ORIGINAL: greggles47


    ORIGINAL: william hanshaw

    Hello Fiery...I also need a new Mills .75 fuel bowl, and I tried to reach Barton Products at ''info@bamopro.co.uk'', with no success. My email reported it as an invalid address. Do you by chance have a better email address that you are able to use successfully? I'd appreciate it. They have a large website but it's dated 2003, so it may be extinct. Don't know. Thanks, William
    William,

    Fiery asked this Q on P2, here's my answer then, and now.

    Fiery,

    Check with Dave Owen he lists a replacement tank on his pricelist.

    http://oea.modelenginenews.org/pricelist_2011-04.pdf

    Greg

    Ioften forget what is in my own back yard, thanks for the reminder Greg!


  22. #72

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    RE: Club Mills!

    I suspect I may have picked up the last (or nearly the last) of David Owen's tank bowl stock.

    Mills .75 tanks are not listed on the most recent edition of David Owen's flyer.

    John Goodall of Bamopro has translucent white moulded tanks for a range of classic british diesels including the Mills .75. I bought one for an ED Bee Mk 1. It is good quality. John Goodall's email address which I used for my order is:

    tjohngoodall@gmail.com

    I dealt with Paul and received efficient service. Payment by Payal made things easy.

  23. #73
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    RE: Club Mills!

    I was reading somewhere that the guy in the UK who used to made the small fuel tanks for the little engines retired. So it is basically that no one is doing it anymore, so when the supply is sold off there are no more.

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  24. #74

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    RE: Club Mills!

    Could be-I think he only started making em when he retired from whatever his full time job was. I know there were problems with some of the early batches-they weren't stress relieved, and would sometime shatter when being installed-I had this happen with two ED Comp Special repro tanks-but Dave Owen-gentleman that he is- replaced them without demur-I gather it wasn't an isolated incident either. Still its great that someone went to the effort of making repro tanks for the Mills, DC, ED's and Frogs. The originals-especially Mills 75 DC and ED ones-have deteriorated to the point where it is rare to find a usable one-with shrinkage, warping and distortion. Mills 1.3 and Frog ones seemed to be a more durable nylon type of plastic which lasted better..............

    ChrisM
    'ffkiwi'

  25. #75
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    RE: Club Mills!

    Here it is on the Barton Model Products UK website:
    Roger Whittingham has recently announced that he has retired  and will not produce any more replica tanks, so when present stocks run out there will be no more, we are very sorry to say.
    They made this statement a couple of years ago. I don't know if anyone else has started making little replica fuel tank bowls or not.
    Ref http://www.bamopro.co.uk/news/news_.asp?NewsID=69

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