Register

If this is your first visit, please click the Sign Up now button to begin the process of creating your account so you can begin posting on our forums! The Sign Up process will only take up about a minute of two of your time.

Results 1 to 15 of 15

  1. #1
    Bill Adair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
    Posts
    188
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    Checking Ether content

    Hi Folks,

    Some time back I asked about methods to check the Ether content in my diesel fuel. Since then I've mixed a few batches of fuel, using Sig Castor oil, John Deere starting fluid, ACE kerosene, and Amsoil Cetane booster (in that mixing order), with mostly good results.

    The only problem I had was when I withdrew the spray can tube from the mixing container too soon, and the mix bubbled up and sprayed some liquid and foam out the nozzle of the plastic mixing bottle. I was spraying the Ether into Castor oil, with the thin plastic tube I nipped from my old can of WD-40 inserted into the tip of the mixing bottle, outdoors, and pointed away from my face (as always).

    Subsequently, that batch gave me some odd performance in the PAW 55 I'm breaking in, which seemed to be a little over compressed at it's best running setting (compression backed off until it missed, and then increased till it was running smooth again, and doing the same with the needle valve richening until it missed, and then leaned till smooth again). I had hoped the boil over was equal parts of Ether and Castor, but was not sure, so I decided to test a sample.

    I measured one fluid ounce of the fuel into a medical dose cup. The little plastic cups with tapered sides that are sometimes used to dispense pills, or liquid medication to hospital patients. They are often used for mixing epoxy and other things, and are available at any drug store, or hobby shop. Checking on the sample a few hours later, I noted some reduction in volume, which continued the rest of the evening. In the morning, I was delighted to find the remaining sample was clearly separated into two layers of Castor and Kerosene, with the total about 75% of the original amount.

    So, I'm going to do the same test with the new batch (which was carefully mixed with no boil over), to see if this is indeed a reliable way to check Ether content. Seems to me it works very well, but could benefit from more precise measurements, such as a small graduated syringe with a blunted needle big enough to draw the fuel into the syringe, and empty it into a more suitable evaporation container. Then the syringe would be used to withdraw the remaining liquid sample to compare the volume to the original level.

    One question I have, is does the Ethyl Hexyl Nitrate also evaporate?

    Has anyone else tried this, and if so what were your observations?

    Comments appreciated.

    Bill

    BadAir

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    472
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    Bill,

    That method has always worked for me.

    I think if you are transferring the test sample more than once you will introduce an opportunity for error. I think it's better to measure out your sample once only into the evaporation chamber. This will give you the exact amounts.

    The DII component is so small as to be almost unmeasurable without very sophisticated equipment. You are generally going to be using around 2% or less so the amount in a 100cc sample is 2cc or less. I'm not sure if it separates from the Kero & oil.

    If you have a reliable method please let us know.

    Regards

    Greg
    Regards
    Greg

    Elwood: They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Arcen, , NETHERLANDS
    Posts
    6,571

    RE: Checking Ether content

    One thing to take heed of is that if you mix 30cc ether and 30cc oil, the final mix in the flask is less than 60cc. Ether creeps into the intermolecular space of oil. Alas, I do not know  how much less the final volume as compared to the sum of the separate components. never checked it out.
    Pe, (www.mvvs.nl), MVVS, MOKImotor, RCexl, MTW, Xoar, Mejzlik.
    Blessing in ignorance? There is sanctuary in analysis.

  4. #4
    Bill Adair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
    Posts
    188
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    Hi Greg,

    Good point.

    Also, I've heard more than once, that a test sample of one is practically useless!

    When I did a similar test of popular glow fuels to determine the lube content, I used three samples of each fuel to minimize errors. The measurements were very consistent that way.

    I would prefer using containers with more accurate markings, as the plastic medicine cups I used were only graduated in eighth oz increments, and those raised marks (cast in) were difficult to read.

    The quart of Amsoil Cetane Booster I have should last me for several life times, so some separate tests for evaporation are likely to follow.


    Pe,

    Hello again!

    I've heard that theory before, and I may measure the ingredients separately next batch I mix, to see if I can detect any loss in total volume while blending Ether and Castor oil.

    Thanks to both of you for your comments.

    Bill

    BadAir

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Perth, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    1,880
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    While we're on the subject I did some testing of some suspect fuel not long ago.

    As it turns out I have approximately 20% ether in the mix, according to my graduated cylinder. Now, is it a true 20% or would it be more due to the intermolecular dispersion?
    Go knife edge your cub!

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    472
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content


    ORIGINAL: Rendegade

    While we're on the subject I did some testing of some suspect fuel not long ago.

    As it turns out I have approximately 20% ether in the mix, according to my graduated cylinder. Now, is it a true 20% or would it be more due to the intermolecular dispersion?
    I would assume (dangerous I know) that the dispersion would work in reverse as well leaving your Kero & Oil component %ages the same as when started.

    This intermolecular stuff in my experience is in the order of around 5%. Did you take a large enough sample to measure into the single figure %ages?

    On a more general note - a fuel mix with ether content as low as 20% is rare are you sure that it's the ether content being measures?

    regards

    G
    Regards
    Greg

    Elwood: They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Towson, MD
    Posts
    894
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    So I'm confused? If I take a sample of my fuel and put it into a graduated container and sit it out to evaporate for a day, the difference between the initial amount and the final amount is how much ether was in it in the first place?

    I did this and was left with separated oil and kero. If correct, I had only ten percent ether content. However, I ran my taplin twin and a zom.15 on this the other day and they ran fine. I was not able to get my Kometa .29 diesel running though.

    I'm guessing I can just throw some John Deere in and make it as good as new? If so I have an unopened can of davis fuel 20 years old that could possibly be of use.

    Max

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Hervey Bay Queensland, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    2,637
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    I have pepped up an old container of diesel fuel by adding ether. It worked without issue and quick engine starting capability was restored.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    472
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content


    ORIGINAL: maxtenet

    So I'm confused? If I take a sample of my fuel and put it into a graduated container and sit it out to evaporate for a day, the difference between the initial amount and the final amount is how much ether was in it in the first place?

    I did this and was left with separated oil and kero. If correct, I had only ten percent ether content. However, I ran my taplin twin and a zom.15 on this the other day and they ran fine. I was not able to get my Kometa .29 diesel running though.

    I'm guessing I can just throw some John Deere in and make it as good as new? If so I have an unopened can of davis fuel 20 years old that could possibly be of use.

    Max
    Max,

    Correct, what you put in is your ether oil kero mix. After the ether evaporates off you have the other two components. And as a bonus they separate to show you their percentages (of what you put in - not the original mix).

    10% doesn't seem to be enough to run any engine. Maybe it does, but I'd ask how accurate your measurement process was, what kind of measuring apparatus was used. To get accurate results, you really need to take exact data.

    regards

    G
    Regards
    Greg

    Elwood: They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Towson, MD
    Posts
    894
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    Don't know how accurate it was. I just poured some fuel into a 10cc syringe with the needle part sealed off and let it sit for two days open at the top. The oil and kero did separate out nicely though.

    Max

  11. #11
    Bill Adair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
    Posts
    188
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    My sample was only one fluid ounce, because the medicine container I used was that size. Since then, I visited my local Beauty Supply store, and picked up a half dozen graduated squeeze bottles with cone shaped dispensing nozzles, and little snap on caps to seal the nozzles. These bottles come with many brands of hair dye, for those of you who have a loved one who colors their hair.

    These bottles are 8 fl oz capacity (240 ml), and are ideal for small batches of diesel. I picked up a few round metal 16 oz cans a while back, and use those for fuel storage, and trips to the field.

    Also, I emptied two 7 oz cans of John Deere starting fluid into these bottles, and measured exactly 8 oz of clear fluid from each can. Then transfered them into one of the 16 oz metal cans for storage. Evidently, the JD cans are slightly over filled, to be sure customers are not shorted?

    Something not so good happened when I sprayed JD Ether directly into the Castor oil in my last batch of fuel, and the mix foamed up violently causing some to spray out around the plastic tube I had run from the spray nozzle on the can, into the nozzle of the plastic bottle. Incorrectly, I assumed the lost Ether/oil was well mixed, and didn't find out until I finished the batch by adding Kerosene, and then tried to start my PAW 55 that something was wrong! The engine was very hard to start, and when I got it running it sounded over compressed. That's when I tried a can of commercial fuel (Aerodyne), and noticed a marked improvement in ease of starting. I was suddenly getting two or three flip starts, and much broader needle and compression settings!

    So that's what prompted my first evaporation test, and showed that what ever was lost overnight, brought the volume down by approximately 25%. Judging by the way my engine ran, I suspect my measurement wasn't far from the mark.

    My next test will be with a small batch of carefully measured fuel, blended after the JD propellant has gassed off. Samples will be evaporated as before, to see if reverse engineering works on diesel fuel.

    Gassing the propellant off goes pretty fast, and is easy to observe by feeling the bottoms of the plastic bottles, as they bulge out a bit when the JD fluid is sprayed into the bottle. I stopped spraying each time I felt the bottom bulge had reached it's limit of elastivity, and waited until the bottom was completely relaxed again.

    It only took a few minutes after the JD can was empty, for the pressure to stop building. The spray can nozzle was still connected to the bottle via the small plastic tube. The snap on cap was then installed on the bottle, and removed a few times over the next half hour or so, to be sure the pressure was no longer building (and it wasn't).

    Caution! Keep the plastic bottle pointed safely away from your face, just in case it foams up faster than you expect, and wearing protective glasses is always a good idea when handling fuel.

    Stay tuned for more of my inane blather.

    Bill
    BadAir

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    472
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    To be absolutely sure of the measurements in making fuel, I prefer to use a scientific graduated glass cylinder. And measure each component individually and mix them in a different vessel. That way I know exactly how much of each has been added.

    This is the only way I know to get consistent runs, because I know the fuel is mixed consistently.

    Mixing in plastic bottles relies on them being marked accurately and not expanding or contracting with the weather. Also as previously mentioned, intermolecular dispersion can affect your initial measurements if you combine at measurement stage.

    Regards

    G
    Regards
    Greg

    Elwood: They're not gonna catch us. We're on a mission from God.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Infront NSW, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    1,092
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    ORIGINAL: Bill Adair

    My sample was only one fluid ounce, because the medicine container I used was that size. Since then, I visited my local Beauty Supply store, and picked up a half dozen graduated squeeze bottles with cone shaped dispensing nozzles, and little snap on caps to seal the nozzles. These bottles come with many brands of hair dye, for those of you who have a loved one who colors their hair.

    These bottles are 8 fl oz capacity (240 ml), and are ideal for small batches of diesel. I picked up a few round metal 16 oz cans a while back, and use those for fuel storage, and trips to the field.

    Also, I emptied two 7 oz cans of John Deere starting fluid into these bottles, and measured exactly 8 oz of clear fluid from each can. Then transfered them into one of the 16 oz metal cans for storage. Evidently, the JD cans are slightly over filled, to be sure customers are not shorted?

    Something not so good happened when I sprayed JD Ether directly into the Castor oil in my last batch of fuel, and the mix foamed up violently causing some to spray out around the plastic tube I had run from the spray nozzle on the can, into the nozzle of the plastic bottle. Incorrectly, I assumed the lost Ether/oil was well mixed, and didn't find out until I finished the batch by adding Kerosene, and then tried to start my PAW 55 that something was wrong! The engine was very hard to start, and when I got it running it sounded over compressed. That's when I tried a can of commercial fuel (Aerodyne), and noticed a marked improvement in ease of starting. I was suddenly getting two or three flip starts, and much broader needle and compression settings!

    So that's what prompted my first evaporation test, and showed that what ever was lost overnight, brought the volume down by approximately 25%. Judging by the way my engine ran, I suspect my measurement wasn't far from the mark.

    My next test will be with a small batch of carefully measured fuel, blended after the JD propellant has gassed off. Samples will be evaporated as before, to see if reverse engineering works on diesel fuel.

    Gassing the propellant off goes pretty fast, and is easy to observe by feeling the bottoms of the plastic bottles, as they bulge out a bit when the JD fluid is sprayed into the bottle. I stopped spraying each time I felt the bottom bulge had reached it's limit of elastivity, and waited until the bottom was completely relaxed again.

    It only took a few minutes after the JD can was empty, for the pressure to stop building. The spray can nozzle was still connected to the bottle via the small plastic tube. The snap on cap was then installed on the bottle, and removed a few times over the next half hour or so, to be sure the pressure was no longer building (and it wasn't).

    Caution! Keep the plastic bottle pointed safely away from your face, just in case it foams up faster than you expect, and wearing protective glasses is always a good idea when handling fuel.

    Stay tuned for more of my inane blather.

    Bill

    Bill,

    Greggles and myself go through gallons of home mixed Diesel Fuel each year in our c/l racers.

    We've sorted out how much of each component works best under what circumstances.

    We measure very accurately using scientific quality measuring cylinders the way he's described above.

    To my mind the problem with the JD product is that you don't know what volatiles are in it besides Ether. Rather than trying to determine how much of the latter there is why not use the best tool you have, your engine, to determine experimentally what mixture works best using JD.

    Gas off the Propellant and mix a number of batches of fuel, testing each,
    and adding say 5% more JD "ether" into each batch (reducing your kero component in proportion)
    until your engine runs happily.

    You should be able to establish the optimum proportions very quickly.

    Then just stick to them from then on.

    Or is this more or less what you do anyway?

    Ray

  14. #14
    Bill Adair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Beaverton, OR
    Posts
    188
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    Appreciate the input Greg, and Ray.

    Graduated cylinders would be more accurate, but the much greater expense put me off. so I went with these $1.29 plastic bottles. The cheapest plastic cylinder was many times more expensive, and glass cylinders are much higher than plastic.

    As a youth, I used my grandfathers glass cylinder, and had very good results. I wonder though, if he ever noticed a change in flavor when testing his home made brandy in the same cylinder?

    Seriously, he only tested the specific gravity of a small sample of brandy out of the still, and then cut the full batch with distilled water, and added burnt sugar for color. The last batch I helped him with was 155 proof out of the still, and was cut to 110 to make it easier to swallow.

    Expansion of these plastic bottles is probably insignificant, as all the ingredients will be at the same relative temperature when measured. The only real change from my original batches, is that I'm no longer spraying JD directly into Castor oil, which seemed to make the mix foam violently, and probably trapped what ever propellant was used in the mix.

    My intention is to measure the Kerosene in one container, the Ether in another, and then combine the two, before pouring the mix into a measured amount of Castor oil. A 2% shot of DII will be added, before transferring the mix to a metal can.

    Does that procedure sound reasonable?

    JD is the only source I have for Ether at present, other than some other brands of starting fluid of unknown contents. I can no longer send a ten year old kid to the drug store, to buy a pint of medicinal Ether as I did at that age.

    Sport control line flying is all that I do these days (and way too little of that), so perfectly blended fuel is a luxury I probably don't need.

    Bill
    BadAir

  15. #15

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Sierra Vista, AZ
    Posts
    537
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Checking Ether content

    I have just skimmed this thread very quickly, and did not see any mention of capturing the JD ether separately from the other ingredients before mixing it into the final blend.

    The straw method does allow milking the contents positively and safely, but directly into the measured oil and kero? I can appreciate that that would foam, spatter and likely waste some ether volume. I use a separate catch jar.

    I use one jar with two caps available. One cap is intact, to seal the catch jar. The other cap has a punched hole only slightly larger than the straw. The restricted hole in the one cap reduces loss of the ether, while venting the propellant away nicely. The catch-jar has a mark at the approximate level of liquid ether needed for one liter of fuel. When that mark has been generously reached, stop spraying, and switch to the intact cap.

    What remains in the JD can will be there next time you need it. Pressure may fall off to where you can safely punch an awl through the rim and pour it directly into the catch-jar at the start of that blend session.

    Don't expect the closed jar to keep the ether very long; pour the ether into your fuel batch within minutes of drawing it from the rattle-can.

    I store blended fuel in metal cans, with the cap threads wrapped in plumbers' teflon thread-seal tape. Also. I have prepped the can caps by soldering two copper tubes through their tops. One gets an extension down to the bottom of the can. The other projects into the can less than the height of the cap rim. Long tube is the 'fill' tube; short one is the 'vent.' A few inches of black neoprene connecting the outer tubes holds seal very well over protracted time. This reduces the 'open to the atmosphere' time, thus involves less degradation of the fuel.

    Just be sure to undo the vent tube first - residual pressure in the can may squirt fuel quite a distance.
    \\BEST\\LOU
    Lou Crane, Sierra Vista, AZ


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:51 PM.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.