Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
09-02-2012, 02:47 AM
#1
Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Often CS Oliver Tiger (sometimes labled "Tigre"?) clones are misrepresented on Ebay as being genuine.
This may be accidental or deliberate.
This item on US Ebay is being represented as an Australian made replica. It isn't, it's 100% CS.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123
Another CS engine by the same seller is advertised now as a reproduction. He's changed the description a few hours ago from one that claimed that it was an American reproduction.
I had written to the seller pointing out that his description was misleading in both cases.
It seems that "fazdaracing" has decided to continue with the deception.
A few years ago a fellow club member was taken in by a CS Oliver presented as a US replica just like this one was.
Again it was 100% CS, available for much less!
Buyer beware
Ray
09-02-2012, 04:02 AM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
I think you're overstating the case-if you check some of the other items on sale from that vendor, and the other Oliver listing you will see a box with a COTE label-'Classic Old time Engines'-which IIRC was an outfit run by a well known SAM afficionado who sold a variety of replica engines-mainly diesels- on the US market-including some of CS manufacture-and before CS became known for their replica range. As I recall they (COTE) were around in the late 80's and/or early 90's. This vendor states quite clearly in his description that most of the items are from estate sales of local (Colorado) collectors-he seems to be merely listing according to the written description on the engine box. COTE did not explicitly state in their literature or advertisements that they were not manufacturers of the engines they sold.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi;
ChrisM
'ffkiwi;
09-02-2012, 04:23 AM
#3
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
ORIGINAL: ffkiwi
I think you're overstating the case-if you check some of the other items on sale from that vendor, and the other Oliver listing you will see a box with a COTE label-'Classic Old time Engines'-which IIRC was an outfit run by a well known SAM afficionado who sold a variety of replica engines-mainly diesels- on the US market-including some of CS manufacture-and before CS became known for their replica range. As I recall they (COTE) were around in the late 80's and/or early 90's. This vendor states quite clearly in his description that most of the items are from estate sales of local (Colorado) collectors-he seems to be merely listing according to the written description on the engine box. COTE did not explicitly state in their literature or advertisements that they were not manufacturers of the engines they sold.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi;
I think you're overstating the case-if you check some of the other items on sale from that vendor, and the other Oliver listing you will see a box with a COTE label-'Classic Old time Engines'-which IIRC was an outfit run by a well known SAM afficionado who sold a variety of replica engines-mainly diesels- on the US market-including some of CS manufacture-and before CS became known for their replica range. As I recall they (COTE) were around in the late 80's and/or early 90's. This vendor states quite clearly in his description that most of the items are from estate sales of local (Colorado) collectors-he seems to be merely listing according to the written description on the engine box. COTE did not explicitly state in their literature or advertisements that they were not manufacturers of the engines they sold.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi;
No I'm not over stating the case, he's modified the listing since I've written to him.
Clearly both engines are bog standard CS and he's representing them as something else even after having the facts pointed out.
An ethical ebay seller would have pulled the sale to check the facts and re listed after it was cleared up.
A clubmate bought one of the COTE engines similarly described from an ebay seller a while ago and it turned out to be what it looked like, 100% CS from the "CS are really really crap" era.
Some of the bidders are responding to the original listing where one of the engines was represented as being of Australian manufacture.
The Andrew Kennedy quoted was a well known Australian modeller who never made any engines!
09-02-2012, 04:46 AM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Ethical ebay vendor? A lot of vendors on ebay have no idea what they're really selling-and a significant proportion of stock seems to be from that peculiarly US thing-'estate sales'-whereby people seem to buy a whole heap of stuff they know nothing about with the hope of flogging it on ebay and making a buck.
Your beef should really be with COTE-they were the ones who marketed and sold the items under misleading descriptions and provenance-though I doubt there's much point in relitigating things two decades later.
This sort of thing is not unknown-ever heard of the Irish Mills 1.3 of the late 80's? Turned out to be an Indian one painted black, and with the 'made in india' stamp scratched out. And we won't even start on the murky waters of Taplin twins............
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
Your beef should really be with COTE-they were the ones who marketed and sold the items under misleading descriptions and provenance-though I doubt there's much point in relitigating things two decades later.
This sort of thing is not unknown-ever heard of the Irish Mills 1.3 of the late 80's? Turned out to be an Indian one painted black, and with the 'made in india' stamp scratched out. And we won't even start on the murky waters of Taplin twins............
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
09-02-2012, 04:57 AM
#5
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Chris,
actually my first posting above was a warning to ebay buyers on the forum that what was represented on the auction site may not be genuine Oliver Tiger even if it's presented as such.
I will take and post a few pics of various "OT" engines, genuine and clones to show what to look for in pics to determine what's what.
Ray
actually my first posting above was a warning to ebay buyers on the forum that what was represented on the auction site may not be genuine Oliver Tiger even if it's presented as such.
I will take and post a few pics of various "OT" engines, genuine and clones to show what to look for in pics to determine what's what.
Ray
09-02-2012, 05:29 AM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Fair enough Ray-I was thinking more along the lines of the adage 'do not ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity'........ as also fitting the situation. The same situation applies with Mills-many vendors not knowing, realising, or caring about the differences in origin. I suspect that ignorance and indifference covers far more erroneous listings than willful attempts at misrepresentation...........though the latter certainly occur. One of the most common (on my extensive Ebay observation) errors by the uninitiated seems to be taking the engine box (if there is one)as gospel-if the box states an 'xyz' then it must contain an 'xyz' brand and model of engine-leading to some occasional hilarious misdescriptions.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
09-02-2012, 08:52 PM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Chris,
I certainly wouldn't find it hilarious to be bidding on what is listed as a genuine Olly, or a rare repro made by a well known Australian flier. Especially if that same "Olly" was a CS.
There are a couple of hints in the picture the seller has listed, but not all bidders necessarily know a genuine Olly from one of the many repros, I know I'd have difficulty telling one from the other and if the description, even if innocently wrong, was off the mark I'd feel very bad about paying anything like the money suggested by the seller.
Regards
Greg
I certainly wouldn't find it hilarious to be bidding on what is listed as a genuine Olly, or a rare repro made by a well known Australian flier. Especially if that same "Olly" was a CS.
There are a couple of hints in the picture the seller has listed, but not all bidders necessarily know a genuine Olly from one of the many repros, I know I'd have difficulty telling one from the other and if the description, even if innocently wrong, was off the mark I'd feel very bad about paying anything like the money suggested by the seller.
Regards
Greg
09-02-2012, 10:15 PM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
What I think you're all overlooking is that in many cases-the vendor is UNAWARE of the distinction. Just because someone else writes in and says different-how does the vendor know that the information is correct? What specialist/expert credibility does another ebay member have-and how does the vendor verify the individual and the information supplied. In this case the vendor wasn't asking for assistance or help with identification in the listing as is sometimes the case. He had a box saying what it was-the 'Kennedy' Tiger, and another one in a COTE box. 'Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. CS Tigers don't have anything on them to identify them as CS. WE know better-but WE are not the typical Ebay vendor or buyer.
Short of insisting on a certificate of provenance-(and who would issue this?) it's hard to do much about it. The buyer always has the option of returning the item if it is misrepresented-deliberately or otherwise.
Yes I know this is an embuggerance-but in a lot of cases, the vendor is not the original purchaser of the item, it may have been through two or three hands before coming up for sale, and information may well have got lost on the way.
In this particular case, I'm guessing-from the supporting text in the listing, that the vendor is not an aeromodeller, and definitely not an expert, and is listing based on the information associated with the engines as he purchased them.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
Short of insisting on a certificate of provenance-(and who would issue this?) it's hard to do much about it. The buyer always has the option of returning the item if it is misrepresented-deliberately or otherwise.
Yes I know this is an embuggerance-but in a lot of cases, the vendor is not the original purchaser of the item, it may have been through two or three hands before coming up for sale, and information may well have got lost on the way.
In this particular case, I'm guessing-from the supporting text in the listing, that the vendor is not an aeromodeller, and definitely not an expert, and is listing based on the information associated with the engines as he purchased them.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
09-03-2012, 12:49 AM
#9
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
ORIGINAL: ffkiwi
What I think you're all overlooking is that in many cases-the vendor is UNAWARE of the distinction. Just because someone else writes in and says different-how does the vendor know that the information is correct? What specialist/expert credibility does another ebay member have-and how does the vendor verify the individual and the information supplied. In this case the vendor wasn't asking for assistance or help with identification in the listing as is sometimes the case. He had a box saying what it was-the 'Kennedy' Tiger, and another one in a COTE box. 'Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. CS Tigers don't have anything on them to identify them as CS. WE know better-but WE are not the typical Ebay vendor or buyer.
Short of insisting on a certificate of provenance-(and who would issue this?) it's hard to do much about it. The buyer always has the option of returning the item if it is misrepresented-deliberately or otherwise.
Yes I know this is an embuggerance-but in a lot of cases, the vendor is not the original purchaser of the item, it may have been through two or three hands before coming up for sale, and information may well have got lost on the way.
In this particular case, I'm guessing-from the supporting text in the listing, that the vendor is not an aeromodeller, and definitely not an expert, and is listing based on the information associated with the engines as he purchased them.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
What I think you're all overlooking is that in many cases-the vendor is UNAWARE of the distinction. Just because someone else writes in and says different-how does the vendor know that the information is correct? What specialist/expert credibility does another ebay member have-and how does the vendor verify the individual and the information supplied. In this case the vendor wasn't asking for assistance or help with identification in the listing as is sometimes the case. He had a box saying what it was-the 'Kennedy' Tiger, and another one in a COTE box. 'Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. CS Tigers don't have anything on them to identify them as CS. WE know better-but WE are not the typical Ebay vendor or buyer.
Short of insisting on a certificate of provenance-(and who would issue this?) it's hard to do much about it. The buyer always has the option of returning the item if it is misrepresented-deliberately or otherwise.
Yes I know this is an embuggerance-but in a lot of cases, the vendor is not the original purchaser of the item, it may have been through two or three hands before coming up for sale, and information may well have got lost on the way.
In this particular case, I'm guessing-from the supporting text in the listing, that the vendor is not an aeromodeller, and definitely not an expert, and is listing based on the information associated with the engines as he purchased them.
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
I'd suggest that 10 minutes research on the Internet with Google would clear up any ambiguity about what is and isn't a genuine Oliver.
I would also suspect that Mr Vendor would have received several messages to point out that his listing wasn't accurate.
That should have rung alarm bells.
I find that the journalistic technique of insisting on at least two independent confirmations works well in most cases of identification in life anyway and
there's always that great method of posting a message on any forum requesting information.
Fortunately it works the other way around as well. In my club there's great sport amongst us retired gentlemen in surfing all the model engine ebay listings and identifying those that are bargains or otherwise mislabeled.
I'm constantly amused when I turn up at the flying field to be greeted by a mate with the latest exotic diesel acquisition off (say) Romanian or Bulgarian ebay.
Ray
09-03-2012, 02:58 PM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
After having read all of this Iam on Ray's side of the story.
If the vendor is sketchy about something then say nothing as its a far more accurate description, but to embellish a sale item beyond confirmed knowledge is misrepresenation and criminal and the onis is squarely on their shoulders here.
And its more than fair to assume that a deliberate description to be valid and nothing beyond greed forced the vendor to type the way they did.
They added the unconfirmed statements, no one else, so they alone are responsible as ignorance is no saviour in law.
Rant over.
If the vendor is sketchy about something then say nothing as its a far more accurate description, but to embellish a sale item beyond confirmed knowledge is misrepresenation and criminal and the onis is squarely on their shoulders here.
And its more than fair to assume that a deliberate description to be valid and nothing beyond greed forced the vendor to type the way they did.
They added the unconfirmed statements, no one else, so they alone are responsible as ignorance is no saviour in law.
Rant over.
09-03-2012, 03:50 PM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Caveat Venditor long ago replaced Caveat Emptor in the marketplace in most developed nations.
The Seller has a duty to correctly represent (describe) goods. Ignorance, while a fact of life, is not an acceptable excuse.
The Seller has a duty to correctly represent (describe) goods. Ignorance, while a fact of life, is not an acceptable excuse.
09-04-2012, 05:32 PM
#12
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Check out this pic for some differences. The left one is a real Oliver Mk-3 from ~1958, the right one (with prop) is a CS Oliver Mk-3:
George
George
09-04-2012, 06:56 PM
#13
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
These are some of the specific differences between a CS and a real Oliver mk3 or an early Russian clone that should be obvious from a good picture.
The CS mk3 OT isn't really a clone because none of the parts are interchangeable, it's an interpretation.
It is much harder to pick the differences between an genuine OT mk3 and a Russian replica.
The obvious difference is that the Ruski's have much better looking castings.
A = Compression Screws: CS has a chemically blackened M6 x .75 thread the same as the shaft thread.
OT has one made from hardened steel and has a 1/4" x 32 ME thread which is practically identical with a 1/4" x 32 tpi glow plug thread.
Shaft is 1/4" x 26 tpi BSF thread.
B = screw in backplate: CS has an o-ring seal and the rim is parallel turned..
OT has no gasket and the rim is slightly tapered.
C = lower crankcase shape. In side profile the CS lower crankcase profile is straight.
With the OT the lower profile is "drum shaped", with the maximum corresponding to where the shaft crankdisk would be inside.
It tapers towards the backplate.
The OT also has a stamped serial number on one lug. Usually a T followed by four or five numbers. eg T3815.
Often there's the word "MOD" stamped on the other lug. This means that the engine has been factory "blueprinted" with
a conservatively lightened piston, shaft timing modified and the exhaust duration set.
George does yours have a serial number?
Ray
The CS mk3 OT isn't really a clone because none of the parts are interchangeable, it's an interpretation.
It is much harder to pick the differences between an genuine OT mk3 and a Russian replica.
The obvious difference is that the Ruski's have much better looking castings.
A = Compression Screws: CS has a chemically blackened M6 x .75 thread the same as the shaft thread.
OT has one made from hardened steel and has a 1/4" x 32 ME thread which is practically identical with a 1/4" x 32 tpi glow plug thread.
Shaft is 1/4" x 26 tpi BSF thread.
B = screw in backplate: CS has an o-ring seal and the rim is parallel turned..
OT has no gasket and the rim is slightly tapered.
C = lower crankcase shape. In side profile the CS lower crankcase profile is straight.
With the OT the lower profile is "drum shaped", with the maximum corresponding to where the shaft crankdisk would be inside.
It tapers towards the backplate.
The OT also has a stamped serial number on one lug. Usually a T followed by four or five numbers. eg T3815.
Often there's the word "MOD" stamped on the other lug. This means that the engine has been factory "blueprinted" with
a conservatively lightened piston, shaft timing modified and the exhaust duration set.
George does yours have a serial number?
Ray
09-08-2012, 06:58 PM
#15
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Yes, my Oliver has a number but I can't make it out from the pics I took some time ago. I'll have to dig it oout and check. BTW I also took pics of the box and instructions if anyone needs to see instructions.
George
George
09-11-2012, 04:12 PM
#17
RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
George,
very nice Olly, I believe that it's what John Goodall (he wrote the book on olly's) calls a mk3 3/6. There's also a very nice Oliver mk3 6/6 on ebay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tchlink:top:en
This has the cut away crankcase for the exhaust collector and the long headscrew retaining bosses. This was the last variation before Olivers went over to the mk4.
Ray
very nice Olly, I believe that it's what John Goodall (he wrote the book on olly's) calls a mk3 3/6. There's also a very nice Oliver mk3 6/6 on ebay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tchlink:top:en
This has the cut away crankcase for the exhaust collector and the long headscrew retaining bosses. This was the last variation before Olivers went over to the mk4.
Ray
09-20-2012, 02:32 PM
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RE: Fake Oliver Tiger diesels
Interesting dissertation.
I constantly see references to CS Oliver Tigers. This is incorrect. Only Olivers and their assignees made or make Oliver Tigers. CS make Tigers and others make or have made Tiger copies and replicas too.
The CS Tiger engine is inspired by the English Oliver Tiger design and in most respects in my direct experience has inferior engineering. Crankcase casting is nicely made and as would be hoped for the bearing bores machined accurately in line. However NVA is too fine a thread, conrods break most likely through use of inadequate material strength and there is far too much taper in the cylinder bore for a diesel. Also problems with the cylinder jacket, contra piston and comp. screw designs.
All can be re engineered but for the cost most would be better off buying a genuine Oliver Tiger and having it rebuilt, should it need it.
Jon
04-22-2017, 03:38 AM
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fake or copy Oliver Tigers
There is one very simple way to tell if an Oliver Tiger is genuine and that is to look at the engine mounting lugs on a genuine Tiger there is a serial number stamped into the edge of the mounting lug and you can tell if someone has stamped a Oliver copy by the shine of newly stamped metal. You should never ever buy a motor of any sort where there is either no pictures or just one or two photos of the engine personally on the odd occasion I have sold an engine I always took many pictures and also used the magnification feature put the lowest price I was willing to take for an engine as my starting amount that way I might actually get what I really want.
04-22-2017, 09:28 PM
#21
There is one very simple way to tell if an Oliver Tiger is genuine and that is to look at the engine mounting lugs on a genuine Tiger there is a serial number stamped into the edge of the mounting lug and you can tell if someone has stamped a Oliver copy by the shine of newly stamped metal.
