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Old 10-31-2012, 03:27 AM
  #26
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Default RE: Lubrizol

Hmmm, hype or additives?


Ultimate in lubrication protection and performance
Fortified Film Strength and Anti-Scuff protection
Extreme Load Carrying Capacity engineered to eliminate engine wear
Clean Burn™ Technology reduces carbon and residue build-up
De-gummed formula reduces ring sticking
Contains familiar Klotz Red for easy mixing and castor racy odor
Contains seal conditioners and preservatives
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:44 AM
  #27
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: DerFly

So gents,

BeNol as an ''enhanced'' castor oil is what exactly? Some proportion of synthetic added?

I've been thinking of using a mixture of Castrol M and Motul Micro for some time now. Perhaps 10% and 5% respectively on well run in TBRs and 15%, 10% in plain bearing engines.

What think ye?
This is really a question for Chris (FFkiwi) but seeing he's holding back then I'll have a go.


The MSDS of the enhanced Castor oils is annoyingly vague. Presumably the raw castor oil is heat treated to encourage a process called Polymerisation.

Castor oil is a real soup of different organic molecules and is not particularly soluble in mineral oils like petrol or kerosene.

Polymerisation is a process where smaller molecules consisting of short Carbon and Hydrogen Atom chains combine into much longer and larger chains of molecules by a 3-D crosslinking between different molecules.

CA glues for example utilise Polymerisation to produce very strong joints between relativity porous materials.

The CA reacts with water molecules to produce a tough cross-linked 3-D plastic within the porous surfaces of the materials being bonded.

In the enhanced Castors the new longer chain molecules probably become more Polar, meaning that the net electrostatic charge differences between the different molecules increases c/w their unenhanced non- polymerized form.

This may dramatically increase their solubility in the other mineral oils, which is a big plus.

No doubt there are other additives as they claim.

I've never heard of Motul Micro as an oil till now.

However the whole crux of the discussion sofar has been towards a very conservative choice of mixtures of castor based oils for diesel fuel to suit Iron/Steel p/l engines to minimise carbon buildup on the piston.

From past experiences a 100% synthetic oil such as Motul Micro (even blended with Castrol M) may not suit these engines very well.

Ray



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Old 10-31-2012, 11:43 AM
  #28
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Default RE: Lubrizol

OK Ray-since you've called me out! I am a biochemist by training, not a lubrication chemist-but I'll make a few points. Castor oil is a mixture of triglycerides (an ester formed from glycerol with a fatty acid-triglycerides have 3 fatty acid chains in the molecule) mainly (85-95%) formed of ricinoleic acid-an 18 carbon chain monounsaturated (ie a single double bond in the carbon chain). Ricinoleic acid also has a free hydroxyl (-OH) group in close proximity to the double bond. The free hydroxyl group modifies the fatty acid in two ways-making it more polar (that is more able to mix with other solvents) and also able to be derivatised. Without it, castor oil would be very difficult to mix with anything but a very apolar solvent such as benzene.

Now, chemically, a number of things can be done with that free hydoxyl group-it can be esterified with other reagents, it can be methylated, ethylated and a host of other organic groups attached to it-and because there are three of them per triglyceride, there can be one, two or three modifications-and the possibility of different modifications on the three fatty acid chains. So a 'modified' castor can cover a multitude of sins-not all of which may be beneficial for lubrication purposes. It also allows for a whole raft of proprietary chemistry, by various producers, which may or may not have similar properties.
And we have a double bond in the chain which can be hydrogenated using catalysts to give a single bond-by a similar process to producing margarine from vegetable oil-allowing other modifications to basic castor oil.


So the field (and possibilities inherent) in modified castor oil is extensive-and because it is such a widely used industrial and pharmaceutical feedstock, impossible to be specific about. It is quite possible, given the nature of organic reactions, that many 'modified castor oils' are NOT produced specifically for the lubrication market, but are by-products or waste products from other higher value castor derivative production. If specifically produced for lubrication purposes, the % yield of the desired product from the derivatisation process may be quite low, which may account for the high price of these lubricants.

That being the case, castor oil whether straight or modified is still a great lubricant-and a lot of the modifications are to do with improving the mixing-especially for petrol engines-so may not actually be of any great benefit for our use.

Wikipedia has a reasonably easy to read entry on castor oil for the non chemists out there.

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

PS I tried to upload an image of ricinoleic acid triglyceride but RCU won't support the file extension format. You can see it on the wikipedia page.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:50 PM
  #29
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Default RE: Lubrizol

The few times I have mixed diesel used cool power castor too the Kero is K-1 on the gallon jug almost no odor used in lamps and heaters, also cut the castor 5% and add Klotz
techniplate syn oil 5% martin
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:06 PM
  #30
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: DerFly

Hmmm, hype or additives?


Contains familiar Klotz Red for easy mixing and castor racy odor

During the early 1960's, people racing Morris Cooper S (Minis) would often use 100% Castor as engine oil.

This gave a particularly nice odor to the engine exhaust.

We "boy racers" with street Coopers would often add a few table spoons of Castor to a full tank of petrol to get a similar effect.

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Old 10-31-2012, 06:25 PM
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Ray, you said "100% Castor" in the Mini Cooper, but was that Castrol R40?.

**

I bought a litre of Castrol R40 and then a litre of Fuchs Castorene R40, and tried them both in my model engines fuel mixes last year.

Worked well, but the brown/red dye (in both) stained the airframe covering pretty badly.

So, I went back to plain vanilla Castor.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:15 PM
  #32
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: qazimoto


During the early 1960's, people racing Morris Cooper S (Minis) would often use 100% Castor as engine oil.

This gave a particularly nice odor to the engine exhaust.

We ''boy racers'' with street Coopers would often add a few table spoons of Castor to a full tank of petrol to get a similar effect.

Until I got the new mower recently I was doing the same in the grass cutter. My excuse was, the methanol in the glow fuel would absorb any water that found its way into the fuel tank. But really it was so I could do the grass and get that loverly Castor smell.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:49 PM
  #33
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Default RE: Lubrizol

Quote:
ORIGINAL: fiery

Ray, you said ''100% Castor'' in the Mini Cooper, but was that Castrol R40?.

**

I bought a litre of Castrol R40 and then a litre of Fuchs Castorene R40, and tried them both in my model engines fuel mixes last year.

Worked well, but the brown/red dye (in both) stained the airframe covering pretty badly.

So, I went back to plain vanilla Castor.

Yes it probably was Castrol R40 or something similar. I didn't know the difference in those days.

Some racing mini's may have run on methanol, the details elude me these days.

I've heard that the Castrol A727 stained airframes as well. Didn't know about the R40. I have a litre can of Castrol R30 down the shed.

Suppose I should try it.

Ray
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:07 PM
  #34
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Default RE: Lubrizol

Quote:
ORIGINAL: greggles47

Until I got the new mower recently I was doing the same in the grass cutter. My excuse was, the methanol in the glow fuel would absorb any water that found its way into the fuel tank. But really it was so I could do the grass and get that loverly Castor smell.
Ah Greg,

It's a sad day when an aging "boy racer" has to dope up his weed cutter fuel to get his castor high!

Well I've been out braving the heat and bushfires (early this year!) to get some Maxima 927.


As you can see I've also bought a new tin of white paint for the new DGY. Hope the 927 doesn't stain

Ray

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Old 11-01-2012, 03:04 AM
  #35
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Default RE: Lubrizol

Ray,

What happened to the blue??

I was kinda getting used to it!

Another good looking one, what motor?

Greg
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:32 AM
  #36
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Default RE: Lubrizol

Holy cow guys.
I use maxima 927 in my vintage dirt bike (77 bultaco 370 Pursang). I paid $23 for a 2 litre bottle on line from a motorcycle distributor, rocky mountain atv, but their price is now $29. This seems reasonable pricing. $60 for 2 litres is a massive rip off.
I use sig castor for my model diesel engines. Maxima is polimerized andSIG is not, it's Bakers AA. I would be very surprised if The Brodak castor is not SIG castor in a Brodak bottle.
All the motorcycle castors are polimerized.
Rob
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:23 AM
  #37
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Default RE: Lubrizol

for a write up on castor, see link below:

http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html
and another for motorcycle engines etc:

http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

fill your boots.
Rob
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:20 PM
  #38
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Default RE: Lubrizol

I Think if you take plain castor oil and heat to 300F you will polymerize it correct me if not so martin
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:42 PM
  #39
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Default RE: Lubrizol

The issue here is what type of castor is presented to you, as indeed what type of kerosene too.

The variables are endless, so much so it almost seems to be the safest to buy it premade (if you can!)
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:02 PM
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Default RE: Lubrizol


Quote:
ORIGINAL: greggles47

Ray,

What happened to the blue??

I was kinda getting used to it!

Another good looking one, what motor?

Greg
Greg,

I decided to change! The three new ones this year are Red, Magenta, and now White.

The white makes it easier to see the blood.

This one is for the PAW 15 GTS2 TBR that was in the old blue one we used last.

I'll have to do some bench testing to see what's better, 50% Castrol M/50% Maxima or 100% Maxima.

Ray

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:47 PM
  #41
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Default RE: Lubrizol


Quote:
ORIGINAL: qazimoto


Quote:
ORIGINAL: greggles47

Ray,

What happened to the blue??

I was kinda getting used to it!

Another good looking one, what motor?

Greg
Greg,

I decided to change! The three new ones this year are Red, Magenta, and now White.

The white makes it easier to see the blood.

This one is for the PAW 15 GTS2 TBR that was in the old blue one we used last.

I'll have to do some bench testing to see what's better, 50% Castrol M/50% Maxima or 100% Maxima.

Ray

Ray

What do you look for when testing various oils. Is it purely RPV v's air speed or do you check engine temp and other things?

Fredo

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:00 PM
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Default RE: Lubrizol

I AM NOT RAY An infrared thermometer is a good thing to have on diesels head temp should not exceed 190F if it does lack of lub causes friction raising temp so will over compression
glow engines run far hotter normally I would guess maybe 250F +touch a muffler on a diesel yes hot on a glow you get a burn martin
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:09 PM
  #43
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Default RE: Lubrizol

Quote:
ORIGINAL: PWF63


What do you look for when testing various oils. Is it purely RPV v's air speed or do you check engine temp and other things?

Fredo


Fred,

nothing scientific about it, the event is speed controlled so it's just how well it starts when the engine's very hot on a very hot day.

Actually I do have a IR temperature gauge now that you remind me. I'll give it a go on the bench.

I'm also running a few ETA 29's in a pair of Vintage B team racers at Mannering Park.

We're trying to get our own event up and running. I've already run a conrod bearing on one (now fixed) on a stinking hot day.

I was using some Klotz Techiplate mixed with the Castrol M at the time. The synthetic is supposed to stop the ring's sticking. I can try the Maxima now.


Ray


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Old 11-01-2012, 05:32 PM
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Gazimoto very nice ship whats turning the prop????? martin
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: AMB

I AM NOT RAY An infrared thermometer is a good thing to have on diesels head temp should not exceed 190F if it does lack of lub causes friction raising temp so will over compression
glow engines run far hotter normally I would guess maybe 250F +touch a muffler on a diesel yes hot on a glow you get a burn martin
Hi Martin,
surpisingly a speed glow engine and a team race diesel (both the highest stressed engines in their class) run the cylinder wall temperature at about 250ºC and this is the critical place for oil vaporization.

Luckily castor oil has a flash point of about 280ºC.

And whilst an external head temp can be a good guide it gives no real idea on what is happening right 'at the coal face.'

For example, push/pull heads conduct heat far better than conventional contra's and so does using alumium instead of cast iron, so is my relatively cool to touch PAW cooling jacket really telling me the full story about what the insulated cylinder liner is up to? (Insulated in so far as there is an air gap between the contra piston and the 'head' of the cooling jacket.)
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:11 PM
  #46
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My measurements are taken at the junction of the head and cylinder in engines with contra in head and yes would not be a true read if contra in cylinder martin
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:50 PM
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I think we might be confusing "Heat generated" or "Heat Capacity" with Temperature.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer

The issue here is what type of castor is presented to you, as indeed what type of kerosene too.

The variables are endless, so much so it almost seems to be the safest to buy it premade (if you can!)
Chris,

I find it much more reassuring to mix my own fuel. That way I know the Oil used, the Kero, and I know all of the amounts and the temp of the day mixed. Further I know the amount of ignition improver.

With a commercial blend I can't be 100% sure of any of those variables.

Greg
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:00 PM
  #49
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Default RE: Lubrizol


Quote:
ORIGINAL: greggles47


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer

The issue here is what type of castor is presented to you, as indeed what type of kerosene too.

The variables are endless, so much so it almost seems to be the safest to buy it premade (if you can!)
Chris,

I find it much more reassuring to mix my own fuel. That way I know the Oil used, the Kero, and I know all of the amounts and the temp of the day mixed. Further I know the amount of ignition improver.

With a commercial blend I can't be 100% sure of any of those variables.

Greg
You are right Greg, you will know the mix but with that many types and styles of kero and oil floating around how can you be assured that the kero you bought yesterday is the same as the one you bought today?
Same with oil.

(I am probably being paraniod for no reason really but there is a lot of variables to decide upon that is (or should be) eliminated when buying ready made, if that is at all possible.)

Iremember going down to the field years ago mate, the mobile hobby shop van pulled up and the choices were to IPN or not to IPN, that is the question - and it was quickly solved by how much pocket money I had at the time. The store owner personally mixed the fuel just like Dave Owen used to and Itrusted it completely.

But the modern world gives the paradox of ....... choice, with usually one way to go right and many others that go wrong.
(Did I mention that Iam paranoid? or as Herb would say, Ilack experience.)

Cheers.

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Old 11-02-2012, 06:27 AM
  #50
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Default RE: Lubrizol

WELL "on top the the world" at least here in the states the Kero is of good quality Davis as far as I know is the only maker 2 types regular for ABC and the like and 1/2 A which as more castor, at one time he had a Queens mix for the Brit and antique design engines. Even Eric Clutton "dr Diesel" in the USA says the Davis 1/2 A is fine in PAWs engines . he sells , model techniques in the UK has 3 formulas
I stated before I use the Davis readily available from tower or Davis direct. I have mixed fuel a few times when out of Davis blends
The instructions with the Taipan Twn BB 66 reads 25% castor, I think its safe to say 30% in plain bearing engines ok PAW says 33%, if you look at MVVS formulas one is 40%
I use the Davis 1/2 A in the 10 plain bearings but in the larger OS LA40s the ABC seems fine
Racing is a whole different catagory the idea is to win and of course wear is accepted with the lower oil for the rev increase martin
PAW states the Rod should be checked for wear on the lower oil percent st 6 hrs thats a lot of racing
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