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Diesel Noob with KMD Question

Old 05-23-2014, 09:27 AM
  #76  
DaveyMo
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Max:

Thanks for the link to the Carlson site. Lots of good information there.

If you all can handle a bit of thread drift, I'd like to indulge in a bit of side discussion. One of the goals driving my revived interest in model air is to introduce it to young people. To that end, I'll bring a couple of 1/2 A glow trainers to a family reunion in the state of Kansas coming up June. I'll also bring along the KMD and a few other engines for bench demonstrations. I've ju7st begun to assemble materials for building a Flite Streak for the KMD; however it would take some luck to have it ready in time for the reunion.

I appreciate all the support flowing from this thread!

Dave...
Old 05-23-2014, 06:22 PM
  #77  
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Greeting All Again:

Well, here's the scoop. I tried three different props over the last couple of days (9x6, 8x6 and 7x4). The engine starts predictably well with each of them (though a good ten flicks to get some fire in the jug on each). It seems to run a bit smoother with the 7x4, so I will stick with that. The 7x4 is a black Master Airscrew, very sharp. I cut my finger just installing it on the prop shaft, so a leather glove is my starting friend!

Now, I need some more help. Between the three different props, I've put perhaps ten minutes on the engine in half a dozen slow speed runs. Am using Davis Diesel with just a little extra castor oil added. It will run through the mustard jar of fuel without a problem, but I can get it to run no faster than perhaps 6,000 or 7,000 RPM (I've got no tac). I'd like a bit more out of it before I go through the heat cycling.


Here're the particulars. I can start it at a compression setting of 12.5 turns in and a needle setting of one and a quarter turns out. As I understand it, my goal is to back off on compression after a minute and then find the needle setting that gives highest speed. I then repeat this process (backing off and then diddling the needle for highest speed at each lower compression setting). However after backing off the compression in three or four steps or a total of a half turn out from its starting setting, the speed has crept up very little and seems to max out at the 7,000 or so RPM. In trying to reduce the compression even more, the contra piston fails to cooperate and stays in the 12 turns out position while the T-bar free-wheels on top. As it runs, I'm getting nice, white smoke and just a bit of gray discoloration in the fuel accumulation below the exhaust port.

Any advice? I haven't tried increasing compression from the starting setting to see what that does to the RPM. That sound backwards, but is that an option?

This engine is a bit of a challenge, but it sure is a beauty!

Dave...
Old 05-24-2014, 04:37 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by DaveyMo
Greeting All Again:

Well, here's the scoop. I tried three different props over the last couple of days (9x6, 8x6 and 7x4). The engine starts predictably well with each of them (though a good ten flicks to get some fire in the jug on each). It seems to run a bit smoother with the 7x4, so I will stick with that. The 7x4 is a black Master Airscrew, very sharp. I cut my finger just installing it on the prop shaft, so a leather glove is my starting friend!

Now, I need some more help. Between the three different props, I've put perhaps ten minutes on the engine in half a dozen slow speed runs. Am using Davis Diesel with just a little extra castor oil added. It will run through the mustard jar of fuel without a problem, but I can get it to run no faster than perhaps 6,000 or 7,000 RPM (I've got no tac). I'd like a bit more out of it before I go through the heat cycling.


Here're the particulars. I can start it at a compression setting of 12.5 turns in and a needle setting of one and a quarter turns out. As I understand it, my goal is to back off on compression after a minute and then find the needle setting that gives highest speed. I then repeat this process (backing off and then diddling the needle for highest speed at each lower compression setting). However after backing off the compression in three or four steps or a total of a half turn out from its starting setting, the speed has crept up very little and seems to max out at the 7,000 or so RPM. In trying to reduce the compression even more, the contra piston fails to cooperate and stays in the 12 turns out position while the T-bar free-wheels on top. As it runs, I'm getting nice, white smoke and just a bit of gray discoloration in the fuel accumulation below the exhaust port.

Any advice? I haven't tried increasing compression from the starting setting to see what that does to the RPM. That sound backwards, but is that an option?

This engine is a bit of a challenge, but it sure is a beauty!

Dave...
Mmm, the white smoke is a little unusual. What sort of Davis Diesel fuel is it? I believe that the 1/2A stuff is better than the ABC for older style engines. The white smoke could indicate far too much castor.

Two things to establish first.

#1 Does the engine run in the normal direction, ie anti-clockwise? If not the drum valve may be fitted in the wrong position.

#2 Is the Liner aligned correctly?

I'm not too sure that it is possible to get it on the wrong way with a KMD but that's often the cause of an engine refusing to rev up.

We have two KMD's in our control line group. The best turns an APC 7x6 at about 16700 RPM which isn't too bad. It feels terrific as well, with an excellent p/l seal..

The other was a real screamer but it broke a piston. I have some pics of it somewhere.

Last edited by qazimoto; 05-24-2014 at 04:56 AM.
Old 05-24-2014, 07:02 PM
  #79  
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Qazimoto:

Yes, it is the standard ABC fuel. Perhaps I'll just cut out the extra measure of castor oil I put in it for break-in, and use the fuel as-is.

1) It's turning anti-clockwise OK. Lots of air out the back!
2) The liner lines up the way it was installed at the factory. This engine comes with a liner retention screw in the head, and I don't think the cylinder could be attached to the crankcase unless the screw and the indent in the liner match up correctly.

The engine also has a great feel when turned over due to that piston/liner seal that you mentioned. If I can't get any more snuff out of it, I'm still happy to own it and will have it in the air sometime this summer (here).

Thanks for your insight.

Dave...
Old 05-24-2014, 07:50 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by DaveyMo
Qazimoto:

Yes, it is the standard ABC fuel. Perhaps I'll just cut out the extra measure of castor oil I put in it for break-in, and use the fuel as-is.

1) It's turning anti-clockwise OK. Lots of air out the back!
2) The liner lines up the way it was installed at the factory. This engine comes with a liner retention screw in the head, and I don't think the cylinder could be attached to the crankcase unless the screw and the indent in the liner match up correctly.

The engine also has a great feel when turned over due to that piston/liner seal that you mentioned. If I can't get any more snuff out of it, I'm still happy to own it and will have it in the air sometime this summer (here).

Thanks for your insight.

Dave...
Well I found some pics. This is the best one. I think that it did require a bit of run-in time but it wasn't excessively tight to begin with.



I believe that the Davis ABC fuel has about 12% synthetic oil. I'm just not sure how that will affect the KMD, but Bob's ran happily on his normal fuel of 20% Castor, 30% ether, 50% kero with an additional 1% Amsoil on to of all that. Additional castor in the Davis fuel shouldn't hurt, but I just can't see that holding the engine back 10K rpm on the 7x4. Running it on the low oil fuel won't hurt too much because that's what it was designed for.

The Master prop is fast for that size as well.

How big is the venturi hole? A very very small hole, or obstructed venturi could hold it back.

Ray
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Last edited by qazimoto; 05-24-2014 at 07:54 PM.
Old 05-24-2014, 07:59 PM
  #81  
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Dave, if you're finding that the contra won't back out while the engine's running, you'll have to do it with the engine stopped. Back out the compscrew to where you think it ought to be, prime the side of the piston, and give it a good hard flick. This will generally shift the contra, even if it won't back out with the engine running. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the "12.5 turns in" thing for the compression - just find a decent running setting for it, and you shouldn't need to vary it more than a quarter turn or so. It's not like a needle valve, and the less you have to move it, the better.

7000 rpm is way low for any of the props you mention. Is it misfiring, or running evenly? If it's not misfiring, then don't increase the comp yet. A diesel that's running slowly but not misfiring is either badly overcompressed, or very rich. I'd suggest backing the comp off until it it's misfiring, increase it just enough to clear the misfire, then gradually lean it out. Eventually it'll misfire again - you can increase the comp a little to stop this, and continue to lean it. When it's too lean, you'll get a harsher misfire, and/or the engine will just stop. (Don't get stressed by this - overcompressed is much worse than too lean.) You're aiming for a compression that's just enough for the engine not to misfire, and a needle setting a bit rich of peak.

For a healthy engine with a vaguely sensible compression setting to be running that slow, I'd normally assume that it's way rich. Only 1.25 turns out on the needle suggests otherwise, so I can see why Ray would be wondering if the engine's assembled correctly.

Steve
Old 05-24-2014, 08:23 PM
  #82  
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I've found some pics of the other KMD. This belongs to Rex and I think that it's a hybrid of several separate engines. It broke a piston while it was going very well in a Diesel Goodyear model. We have a speed limited competition here for such engines/models. The KMD was right on the money and up there with the Fora, Parra, PAWs Oliver Tigers etc. I suspect that it's running again.



Even though the venturi hole is seriously obstructed by the non standard Needle Valve Assembly it still performed very well








I won't see Bob or Rex now till next Saturday but when I do I'll ask about your problem.
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Old 05-24-2014, 08:58 PM
  #83  
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I've just noticed from your picture of the engine that it has a very nice Super Tigre style NVA fitted. There can be a subtle problem with these that could cause some of the symptoms you describe ie seemingly running rich (as Steve has pointed out) with a really lean needle setting.

You can check this theory by closing the needle and with a length of fuel tubing on the other side check to see if you can suck air or not through the fuel line.. If you can the NVA is simply locked too far out. Loosen the locking nut and wind the needle in so that it does seal properly.

Then set it to the required number of turns and nip up the locknut.

I'd normally start at around 4 turns on a ST NVA.

The engine could just be too rich and very under-compressed. Could you record a run on an iphone and post it on Youtube?


Last edited by qazimoto; 05-25-2014 at 03:18 AM.
Old 05-24-2014, 10:57 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by steve111
7000 rpm is way low for any of the props you mention
Steve
Not if its running backwards and this is exactly the problem that I had with my rebuilt Marz diesel ............. and it had pretty much the same induction system.

The cause was a broken back plate gasket that was bleeding air into the lower crankcase at the wrong time.

Every time Greggles got it going it was happily running backwards but at a much reduced rate on knots.

Perhaps this is the issue here?

Quick question here, with no tach available how do you know its running at no more than 7000 rpm?

Harmonics perhaps?

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Old 05-24-2014, 11:08 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by DaveyMo
Am using Davis Diesel with just a little extra castor oil added.

Dave...
Please define what a "little extra castor oil" is?
Old 05-24-2014, 11:22 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Recycled Flyer
Not if its running backwards and this is exactly the problem that I had with my rebuilt Marz diesel .............

Perhaps this is the issue here?
Chris, you need to read posts 78 and 79. I think we've established that it's running forwards.

Last edited by steve111; 05-24-2014 at 11:31 PM.
Old 05-24-2014, 11:29 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by qazimoto
I've just noticed from your picture of the engine that it has a very nice Super Tigre style NVA fitted.
Ray,
that looks like the standard Russian needle valve to me.
Old 05-25-2014, 02:07 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Recycled Flyer
Ray,
that looks like the standard Russian needle valve to me.

Yes, but I said a "Super Tigre style" NVA fitted. They have been in ST engines since the early 1960's and everyone else has copied them, including the Ruskies.

Ray

Last edited by qazimoto; 05-25-2014 at 03:18 AM.
Old 05-25-2014, 02:14 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by steve111
Chris, you need to read posts 78 and 79. I think we've established that it's running forwards.
Sorry Steve, I got lost in a 4 page thread - but how is the back plate gasket anyway?
Old 05-25-2014, 03:19 AM
  #90  
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Duplicate post
Old 05-25-2014, 04:09 PM
  #91  
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Qazimoto:

Great set of photo's you've got there! It looks like you've got the older version of this engine (a better finish and appearance, but apparently not much difference in performance what I've read).

I see on your post above that you raise a question about venture size. The following s a shot of my KMD for comparison. What do you think?



Dave...
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:28 PM
  #92  
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Some answers to the questions you gents have thoughtfully posed above. The back plate gasket looked good when I disassembled the engine some time ago.

Steve: I'll keep in mind the needle valve and compression parameters you stated when I fire it up again tomorrow eve. And I'll definitely use your CP reset technique. When I posted the problem, I thought that if it didn't reset during a run then nothing else would do it. Live and learn, eh?!

Chris: The bit of extra castor oil amounts to about one cc in maybe 300 ml of the Davis ABC fuel.

Chris and Ray: I like the way you guys have asked me to verify my RPM estimate - no since speculating if I'm tone deaf and my estimate is way off! I'll see what I can do about getting a friend who has an I-phone to help me with a post to U-Tube. That's really the only way to go on something like this as you've suggested.

Ray: The NV setting of only a turn and a half does seem strange, compared to your recommendation of four turns. I'm certain that I am running it at the turn and a half out because I've checked it with the locking nut loosened. As I mentioned, it has seemed optimal in past runs, but I will double check again tomorrow. Could this leaner setting be consistent with what appears to be a smaller intake in the photo I posted above?

I've been running the engine in the garage (with open door) and enjoy the residual smell whenever we go out to the car!

Thanks.

Dave...
Old 05-25-2014, 10:16 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by DaveyMo
Some answers to the questions you gents have thoughtfully posed above. The back plate gasket looked good when I disassembled the engine some time ago.

Steve: I'll keep in mind the needle valve and compression parameters you stated when I fire it up again tomorrow eve. And I'll definitely use your CP reset technique. When I posted the problem, I thought that if it didn't reset during a run then nothing else would do it. Live and learn, eh?!

Chris: The bit of extra castor oil amounts to about one cc in maybe 300 ml of the Davis ABC fuel.

Chris and Ray: I like the way you guys have asked me to verify my RPM estimate - no since speculating if I'm tone deaf and my estimate is way off! I'll see what I can do about getting a friend who has an I-phone to help me with a post to U-Tube. That's really the only way to go on something like this as you've suggested.

Ray: The NV setting of only a turn and a half does seem strange, compared to your recommendation of four turns. I'm certain that I am running it at the turn and a half out because I've checked it with the locking nut loosened. As I mentioned, it has seemed optimal in past runs, but I will double check again tomorrow. Could this leaner setting be consistent with what appears to be a smaller intake in the photo I posted above?

I've been running the engine in the garage (with open door) and enjoy the residual smell whenever we go out to the car!

Thanks.

Dave...
The venturi hole looks to be about 3mm, yes? If so that should be ok. It was quite normal for Team Race diesels of it's era to use that size for economy. A popular mod on some diesels was to replace the venturi with that from a Cox TD 049 which was about 5/32" I believe.

The really important thing to check is whether the NVA actually shuts off. About one and a half turns does seem far to few. The NVA could always be non-original.

A short video with sound should allow us to judge whether it's over or under compressed, rich or lean.. We could also feed the sound into an audio tacho to determine rpm.

Ray
Old 05-26-2014, 07:40 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by DaveyMo
Here're the particulars. I can start it at a compression setting of 12.5 turns in and a needle setting of one and a quarter turns out. As I understand it, my goal is to back off on compression after a minute and then find the needle setting that gives highest speed. I then repeat this process (backing off and then diddling the needle for highest speed at each lower compression setting). However after backing off the compression in three or four steps or a total of a half turn out from its starting setting, the speed has crept up very little and seems to max out at the 7,000 or so RPM. In trying to reduce the compression even more, the contra piston fails to cooperate and stays in the 12 turns out position while the T-bar free-wheels on top. As it runs, I'm getting nice, white smoke and just a bit of gray discoloration in the fuel accumulation below the exhaust port.

Dave...
Dave, I think you may have misunderstood the instructions. The goal is not to make it run on the lowest compression setting but to make it run at the correct compression setting without being over compressed.

Once it has heated up you lower the compression until it starts to lose some RPM then increase it until it no longer increases RPM when compression is increased. If you increase it more, compression will drop off. THIS is when you are running it over-compressed. Running it this way will put extreme stress on parts and cause the engine to overheat. By running it at the lower end of the "flat spot" you are lessening chances of running it over-compressed.

Of course as you settle on a compression setting you are also tweaking the needle valve to peak. Over rich will slow down a bit, over lean will provide a zinging sound, too over lean and it will quit running.

One of the advantages of diesel over glow is that you can set it for the best running conditions for various prop sizes. To do this with a glow you must change venturi sizes and vary head shims.

George
Old 05-26-2014, 12:45 PM
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Ray:

You are spot on regarding the venturi hole at 3mm. I'll double check the NVA setting this eve, and try to arrange for a U-tube upload in the next day or so. Will let you know if I succeed.

Dave...
Old 05-26-2014, 01:40 PM
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George: I just finished another short run, and I used your directions concerning the balance between needle and compression. I ended up with what I think is a higher RPM, a nice growling sound overlain by a kind of cyclical sputter. Will try another one-minute run and see if I can get it smoothed out in accordance with your clarification. Using the 8x6 prop.

Ray: I did a pressure test on the needle valve before the run, and air starts to blow by at a quarter out (lock nut removed). Who knows!?

Thanks.
Dave...
Old 05-26-2014, 11:51 PM
  #97  
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"a nice growling sound overlain by a kind of cyclical sputter", is probably a good description of a slightly undercompressed setting. If the excess oil coming out of the exhaust is "light coffee coloured" you've got it right.

Passing air through the NVA at a quarter turn is good as well. The thread must be fairly course.

Sounds like you've cracked it! Congratulations.

Ray
Old 05-28-2014, 03:14 PM
  #98  
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Ray, George, and Chris:

All's going very well. Just a few more heat cycle runs, and it'll be ready for flight. I figured out the compression setting and am getting high RPM with a steady run. The exhaust is clear; no color. It seems to like the 7x4 prop for the higher RPM range (with higher compression), but it sure eats the fuel! I'm alternating the 7x4 with the 8x6 for break-in.

Thanks for all your help.

Dave...
Old 05-28-2014, 05:50 PM
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Dave,

It's good that you are getting things sorted out. Bench running allows both breaking-in and getting familiar with the engine's starting and running characteristics. Now when you go out with a plane it won't be just flip, ouch!, flip, flip, flip, ouch!...like many of us did when we first learned to run diesels. I remember wearing out a leather glove...then using the one for the other hand.

George
Old 07-24-2014, 01:22 PM
  #100  
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Greetings All:

An update on the KMD 2.5. What a sweet engine it has been, thanks to all the help here! It impressed several committed glow fliers at a recent family reunion.

I've got it turning the 8x4 APC prop at 13,000 rpm leaned out; a bit under-compressed with light, coffee-colored exhaust. The contra-piston absolutely refuses to back off (I tried everything) without disassembly and using a wooden dowel and vice to do the job. Thus I'm happy to leave it under compressed in these circumstances and go with it unless someone here has a better idea.

Now a question for the collective wisdom here. It's time to start assembling a C/L ship for this mill. I've in mind a larger training craft for those who are comfortable with 1/2A trainers. It'd be nice to have something that could do loops or inverted flight, but not overpowered for 50' or 60' lines. (Hope I'm not contradicting myself here.)

I've a full-sized set of plans for a Flite Streak, so will consider it if you folks think that it might work. The model has a wing span of 42" with 390 sq. inches of wing area. Text with the plans call for glow power .19 to .35 turning a 9-6 or 10-6 prop. Given this, I wonder if I'm underpowered a bit, but not sure. What do you think? I'm not averse to having the plans reduced by some percentage for a smaller model, though I'd have to make adjustments for the dimension lumber as needed.

Finally, I enjoy tinkering and building almost more than flying. Thus construction would be a slow, fun winter project with air time expected for the North's next summer.

Dave Mo...

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