Super Tigre G/20 .19 Diesel RC????
#1
Thread Starter
Super Tigre G/20 .19 Diesel RC????
Hi Everybody:
There is this engine advertised on E Bay. The seller claims that it is a .19 since there is no number stamped in the circle below the exhaust. I have never seen or heard of a G20/.19 Diesel let alone a RC version. Is this engine for real? If it is, it should be very rare! I have owned a G 15D RV and a G/20 .15 FI Diesel. I think that I have seen all of the Smaller ST Diesel engines but never a G20/.19D.
Comments?
Tia,
Franchi
There is this engine advertised on E Bay. The seller claims that it is a .19 since there is no number stamped in the circle below the exhaust. I have never seen or heard of a G20/.19 Diesel let alone a RC version. Is this engine for real? If it is, it should be very rare! I have owned a G 15D RV and a G/20 .15 FI Diesel. I think that I have seen all of the Smaller ST Diesel engines but never a G20/.19D.
Comments?
Tia,
Franchi
#3
My Feedback: (1)
It's always dangerous saying that Super Tigre didn't make a particular engine.
As a general rule I'd say that if a particular configuration was possible then they would have made it for some group somewhere.
The G20/15 series was on sale from the mid 60's to the late 80's, ample time for all the possibilitues to be tried.
I have an unrun G20/15D (2.5cc diesel) with a factory fitted r/c carby in my diesel stach.
I've also heard that there was a .19 version.
Looking at the ebay item I noticed that it's from toys_tophobby a reputible dealer who knows his stuff.
I'd be happy to buy the engine if the price was right, but I'm sure that it'll go through the roof.
As a general rule I'd say that if a particular configuration was possible then they would have made it for some group somewhere.
The G20/15 series was on sale from the mid 60's to the late 80's, ample time for all the possibilitues to be tried.
I have an unrun G20/15D (2.5cc diesel) with a factory fitted r/c carby in my diesel stach.
I've also heard that there was a .19 version.
Looking at the ebay item I noticed that it's from toys_tophobby a reputible dealer who knows his stuff.
I'd be happy to buy the engine if the price was right, but I'm sure that it'll go through the roof.
Last edited by qazimoto; 03-22-2014 at 08:13 PM.
#4
Senior Member
Looking at the ebay item I noticed that it's from toys_tophobby a reputible dealer who knows his stuff.
#6
Senior Member
Yeah, we'll probably never know for sure... but there are a couple of points that I find surprising.
The seller (Gaby, I've had several super engines from him) apparently assumes that as no size is marked on the engine, then it must be something unusual.
I would have thought that the reverse would be true, i.e. no marking = "standard" and any "special" size would be stamped (like the G15/19).
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing an ST comp locking lever that wasn't black (OK, that's not very conclusive, but it's true).
Finally, I used to own an engine visually identical to this one (sold on eBay last year, to NZ) and mine was a 2.5 of course.
This engine is a very late G20/15 (mid-seventies), still being produced at a time when the G15 was already the serious competition engine for 10 years...
Hmmm, I'm doubtful, but I think we'll never know. I certainly wouldn't buy it on the evidence we have at the moment.
The error in the Drone advert, mentioned above, is probably due to using "copy and paste" and not checking, when trying to do a lot of descriptions quickly.
The seller (Gaby, I've had several super engines from him) apparently assumes that as no size is marked on the engine, then it must be something unusual.
I would have thought that the reverse would be true, i.e. no marking = "standard" and any "special" size would be stamped (like the G15/19).
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing an ST comp locking lever that wasn't black (OK, that's not very conclusive, but it's true).
Finally, I used to own an engine visually identical to this one (sold on eBay last year, to NZ) and mine was a 2.5 of course.
This engine is a very late G20/15 (mid-seventies), still being produced at a time when the G15 was already the serious competition engine for 10 years...
Hmmm, I'm doubtful, but I think we'll never know. I certainly wouldn't buy it on the evidence we have at the moment.
The error in the Drone advert, mentioned above, is probably due to using "copy and paste" and not checking, when trying to do a lot of descriptions quickly.
Last edited by brokenenglish; 03-23-2014 at 12:54 AM.
#7
My Feedback: (1)
Yeah, we'll probably never know for sure... but there are a couple of points that I find surprising.
The seller (Gaby, I've had several super engines from him) apparently assumes that as no size is marked on the engine, then it must be something unusual.
I would have thought that the reverse would be true, i.e. no marking = "standard" and any "special" size would be stamped (like the G15/19).
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing an ST comp locking lever that wasn't black (OK, that's not very conclusive, but it's true).
Finally, I used to own an engine visually identical to this one (sold on eBay last year, to NZ) and mine was a 2.5 of course.
This engine is a very late G20/15 (mid-seventies), still being produced at a time when the G15 was already the serious competition engine for 10 years...
Hmmm, I'm doubtful, but I think we'll never know. I certainly wouldn't buy it on the evidence we have at the moment.
The error in the Drone advert, mentioned above, is probably due to using "copy and paste" and not checking, when trying to do a lot of descriptions quickly.
The seller (Gaby, I've had several super engines from him) apparently assumes that as no size is marked on the engine, then it must be something unusual.
I would have thought that the reverse would be true, i.e. no marking = "standard" and any "special" size would be stamped (like the G15/19).
Secondly, I don't recall ever seeing an ST comp locking lever that wasn't black (OK, that's not very conclusive, but it's true).
Finally, I used to own an engine visually identical to this one (sold on eBay last year, to NZ) and mine was a 2.5 of course.
This engine is a very late G20/15 (mid-seventies), still being produced at a time when the G15 was already the serious competition engine for 10 years...
Hmmm, I'm doubtful, but I think we'll never know. I certainly wouldn't buy it on the evidence we have at the moment.
The error in the Drone advert, mentioned above, is probably due to using "copy and paste" and not checking, when trying to do a lot of descriptions quickly.
My assertion that the G20/15D was available right into the 80's is based on the advertisments for them in the backpages of the Aeromodeller during the era.
They were in demand (at least) for c/l combat. It's raining very heavily right now so I can't go down the shed and scan an ad. Maybe tomorrow.
This is what Ian Russell said about the G20 series glow engines in 2003.
"RE: SuperTigre G20/19"
In response to Reply # 0
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: dclite"][/TD]
[TD="class: dclite"] The G20/15, 19, and 23, are a series of wonderful engines all on the 15 c/case. Your 19 is probably a single ballrace engine, although it looks like two. If the prop thread is 1/4-28, it's a single BR. There are three types of c/case, easily distinguished by the date they appeared being written on the case, 1960, 1965, and 1970. I think 19's and 23's all had massive sub-piston induction, due to squeezing the larger engine into the smaller case. EXCEPT in the 1970 20/23 the sub-piston induction was eliminated by curving up the bottom edge of the exhaust port. I have never seen a 1970 20/19.
If using a muffler, either a 15 or 23 with no s.p.i. is the way to go. A muffled 19 with s.p.i. suffers great power loss with a muffler. Without muffler, they are all great. Don't be mislead by the old baffle piston layout. These motors are no slouches. In the 60's and 70's I used to T/R these (20/23) engines against the 29's, nearly always placing. On 30cc fuel, (1oz.=28cc?) we did the race (5 miles) non-stop at 94mph.
I reckon a muffled 23 with no s.p.i. is an excellent substitute for a Fox 35. With muffler about the same weight and possibly more power than a stock Fox. I have one of these engines lined up for a Larry Richards Baby T'brd! Guess I'll have to hold it back a bit, or use longer lines! Good luck, Ian R.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
In response to Reply # 0
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: dclite"][/TD]
[TD="class: dclite"] The G20/15, 19, and 23, are a series of wonderful engines all on the 15 c/case. Your 19 is probably a single ballrace engine, although it looks like two. If the prop thread is 1/4-28, it's a single BR. There are three types of c/case, easily distinguished by the date they appeared being written on the case, 1960, 1965, and 1970. I think 19's and 23's all had massive sub-piston induction, due to squeezing the larger engine into the smaller case. EXCEPT in the 1970 20/23 the sub-piston induction was eliminated by curving up the bottom edge of the exhaust port. I have never seen a 1970 20/19.
If using a muffler, either a 15 or 23 with no s.p.i. is the way to go. A muffled 19 with s.p.i. suffers great power loss with a muffler. Without muffler, they are all great. Don't be mislead by the old baffle piston layout. These motors are no slouches. In the 60's and 70's I used to T/R these (20/23) engines against the 29's, nearly always placing. On 30cc fuel, (1oz.=28cc?) we did the race (5 miles) non-stop at 94mph.
I reckon a muffled 23 with no s.p.i. is an excellent substitute for a Fox 35. With muffler about the same weight and possibly more power than a stock Fox. I have one of these engines lined up for a Larry Richards Baby T'brd! Guess I'll have to hold it back a bit, or use longer lines! Good luck, Ian R.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Last edited by qazimoto; 03-23-2014 at 02:47 AM.
#8
Senior Member
There's never been any doubt about that, I'm selling one on eBay right now, but it's a rare engine, the only one I've ever actually seen.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
Last edited by brokenenglish; 03-23-2014 at 03:40 AM.
#9
My Feedback: (1)
There's never been any doubt about that, I'm selling one on eBay right now, but it's a rare engine, the only one I've ever actually seen.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
Well some forum menbers don't even belive that there was a G20/15D R/C version.
I found the picture below of a G20/19 R/C glow in Peter Chinn's 1966 Global Engine Review from American Modeller.
#10
Senior Member
I was a bit surprised by that comment, so I went to where I thought I could find a reference, and found it immediately.
Aeromodeller, February 1971, page 101, Mick Wilshere's World Engines advert:
"Super Tigre G20/15 Diesel R/C - £12.00" (the plain carb version is £9.75), and there were very many similar adverts through the seventies.
#11
My Feedback: (1)
So what? That's their problem!
I was a bit surprised by that comment, so I went to where I thought I could find a reference, and found it immediately.
Aeromodeller, February 1971, page 101, Mick Wilshere's World Engines advert:
"Super Tigre G20/15 Diesel R/C - £12.00" (the plain carb version is £9.75), and there were very many similar adverts through the seventies.
I was a bit surprised by that comment, so I went to where I thought I could find a reference, and found it immediately.
Aeromodeller, February 1971, page 101, Mick Wilshere's World Engines advert:
"Super Tigre G20/15 Diesel R/C - £12.00" (the plain carb version is £9.75), and there were very many similar adverts through the seventies.
The R/C G20/15D was available up to 1965 according to Chinn, but discontinued. Must have been reintroduced a few years later.
I've been through the AM index, combined engine tests, Google, and ads in some of my AM collection and can't find any other reference to the ST G20/19D.
It's a bit like the legendary G15 Diesel, very hard to pin down.
Guess I'll have to wait till something definitive turns up.
#12
Senior Member
Yeah, the G20/15D RC was still on sale "mid-seventies" 'cos I bought one!
IIRC Super Tigre started phasing out the G20 when the G15 was released, but the G15 Diesel was generally considered to be not as good as the older G20/15D so, after a period of hesitation, the G20/15D (and glow) became available again, plain carb and RC, particularly as, during the 70's, the 15 glow had become the favourite FAI combat engine in Europe.
I've had several G15 diesels (still have one), and I prefer the G20/15D, particularly the "1965" crankcase version.
I'm still doubtful about the engine on sale that started this thread, but it's just a sort of "gut feeling" on my part, nothing that I can substantiate or argue about!
IIRC Super Tigre started phasing out the G20 when the G15 was released, but the G15 Diesel was generally considered to be not as good as the older G20/15D so, after a period of hesitation, the G20/15D (and glow) became available again, plain carb and RC, particularly as, during the 70's, the 15 glow had become the favourite FAI combat engine in Europe.
I've had several G15 diesels (still have one), and I prefer the G20/15D, particularly the "1965" crankcase version.
I'm still doubtful about the engine on sale that started this thread, but it's just a sort of "gut feeling" on my part, nothing that I can substantiate or argue about!
#13
Senior Member
If you look at the crank in your ST G20-15 diesel, you will likely see it marked 15/19. One supposes the 19 used the same crank, and had two ball bearings, not one like the ST G20-23, which has one bearing and a 1/4 x 28 prop thread.
#14
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Whilst agreeing with most of the comments above, I'm a little skeptical about the supposed G20/19 diesel-irrespective of whether it is standard or RC. G20/19 and G20/23 glows certainly-but I note that the rods on the 'oversized' versions tend to be 'shaved' at the bottom end to cope with the increased crank throw yet still achieve clearance within the case. I suspect that a diesel version, with its higher running stresses and rod loadings, might be too much for a 'shaved' conrod to cope with. This is based on observations of my own G15/19s-and an early (1950s) G20/19 glow like the one sold by brokenenglish above. I agree that the 19 glows are very thin on the ground-whether G20 or G15.......and I'm not yet convinced that a G20/19D exists..........
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
#17
There's never been any doubt about that, I'm selling one on eBay right now, but it's a rare engine, the only one I've ever actually seen.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2311818447...84.m1586.l2649
If I remember correctly, that .15 was replaced by the "Jubilee" version, then in 1960 by another version. The last two had one-piece crank cases. I do not have a "Jubilee" but here are pictures of the 1960 glow and diesel G20 .15's:
George
Last edited by gcb; 04-13-2014 at 08:30 AM.
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ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
#21
My Feedback: (1)
As I said earlier I think there are structural limitations that would make it unlikely-the second point is '19' is a US class size limit-not a UK a European one-why would Super Tigre make a .19 diesel for a market in which diesels are hardly used (and certainly so in the era of the 1960s when the G20 was predominantly marketed. Even the G20/19 and G15/19 glows are fairly rare beasts.......and as for the supposed G20/19D RC that would make it rarer than rare............if it exists............
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
It does seem unlikely that there was a G20/19D then, but not impossible.
Another unresolved Super Tigre issue is whether there ever was a factory batch of G15/15 Diesels as opposed to outside conversions. Engines that look like factory versions do turn up from time to time on ebay.
They're existance may just have not have made it into the modelling press.
A couple of other examples:
Back in the 80's I called into see Ivor F at his place at Doonside, as I was passing through on work business. He showed me a few glow Doonside Mills .75 engines out a batch he was making for collectors.
Another time I was talking to Stan Pilgrim of "motor boy" fame after most people had gone home from a St Ives Burford day. He was struggling to start a diesilized Taipan 15 FIRE Goldhead engine in a model. He'd only refurbished it that morning for the event. He said that it was one of a batch of 100 for collectors that Gordon Burford had made during the 1970's.
I'm sure that if either a Doonside Glow or a Burford Taipan .15 Goldhead diesel turned up on Ebay, then they'd be treated with suspicion as well.
As my old high school science teacher drummed into me, you can't prove a negative!
I'm just reserving judgement on the matter.
Ray
Edited to correct pre-breakfast grammatical errors. The ones left in are just normal. :-)
Last edited by qazimoto; 04-14-2014 at 09:22 PM.
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kimp (05-19-2023)
#22
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[QUOTE=qazimoto;11783025
As my old high school science teacher drummed into me, you can't prove a negative!
I'm just reserving judgement on the matter.
Ray[/QUOTE]
Quite true Ray, and a quote that I remember back from my days in law forums was "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
As my old high school science teacher drummed into me, you can't prove a negative!
I'm just reserving judgement on the matter.
Ray[/QUOTE]
Quite true Ray, and a quote that I remember back from my days in law forums was "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
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kimp (05-19-2023)
#24
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Derek, that's the way my old G-21 .46 was rigged up, I kept the bushing and the butterfly. I's a baffled engine so I guess it won't ever be a Diesel. My brother bought a 1963 Ford Falcon Sprint in Denver, Colo. and the G-21 .46 was in the trunk on about 12" of a broken off fuse. It was my first RC engine is about 1986.
Last edited by Hobbsy; 04-17-2014 at 03:36 AM.