franchi

I need suggestions as to how to use an electric starter on my Diesel engines

I have several ideas but I may be very incorrect.

Suggestions?

Tia,

Franchi

Recycled Flyer

The lack of replies is telling!?

gossie

What's wrong with using your finger?

AMB

used on anything under a .10 may be the kiss of death, compression too high or hydrolock by- by- rod or crank. if you decide to use one flip a few times by hand first-to make sure no issues martin

[email protected]

I do not use an electric starter on my diesels. Mils .75 all the way to .60 size diesels. Jack

raglafart

My Feedback: (10)

I built a diesel speed model. The engine is a Nelson 15 D with the Goodyear timed sleeve. Currently does around the low 16's for 10.
It's fitted with a Supercool single blade prop of around 8.5" pitch. The blade is thin and very sharp and while I have no problems starting a Nelson 36 in a Bendix sans carbon prop, I'm a bit leery about doing with the 15.
The engine is on crankcase pressure. I fill the tank, make sure it's wet, but of course not flooded. I've set up a stand for the starter in my engine test stand. I connect the batteries to the starter and holding the model, plunge it into the starter cone. Works very well for me.
Since developing this system I've become far less anti electric start for diesels and will use them without worry these days. Course, the engine has to be properly set up with both comp and needle settings and beware trying it on too wet an engine as an hydraulic lock will damage something.
I've been playing around with a DC Merlin to use in a ducted fan model and use a smaller starter on that, It's on suction and works well too. I use the starter as the fans are from old PC cooling fans and finger flicking will flick the blades off and it's not a solution for starting in a DF model, I was going to make a wand for the smaller starter once I'd made the model.

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

"I've been playing around with a DC Merlin to use in a ducted fan model"

You go where angels fear to tread John. A new thread with Photo's of your set up please?

I have read about diesel powered ducted fan F/F semi-scale jets and hovercraft in old model aircraft magazines. Just amaziing.

I would love to see how practical they are.

erik58

My Feedback: (4)

I start mine with the fuel line dry. I watch the fuel go up the line and crank it till it starts. no priming.

franchi

Hello All:

I have acouple of O.S .40's with Davis Heads that are very dangerous to hand flip! If slightly flooded, they will break a 12" over the chicken stick like nothing you have ever seen. I think that I would lose a finger!!!!

I was told to get into the modern times by using an electric starter by Bob Davis of DDD. I have always used my fingers to flip a Diesel to start it.

Perehaps I could get modern by using the electric starter after I suck the fuel up to the spraybar. I find that If I choke some engines, after the fuel is up to the spraybar, a nasty flooded condition will develop.

My Sullivan starters do not have enough torque to turn over the O.S .40's. Same for the S.T. G21/.35 with a Davis head. On the .15 size engines, I just bump the spinner with the starter cone to get it to flip over. I get better results by using a chicken finger.

If I do not change any settings from the run settings, do I have to richen the needle valve or increase the compression to get the engine to fire when using the electric starter? One would think that the engine would start at the setting that proved best for flight! On my MVVS D7, I always have to increas the compression. open the needle valve and prime the ehaust port for a restart. I would like to get away from that drill and start the engine in the ready to launch mode.

Thanks for the replies.

Saty well,

Franchi

In any case, it is going to be a Diesel Summer until all of my fuel is depleted.

N99JH

My Feedback: (66)

I am currently preparing a OS 160FX to power a large model. I got it set so that I don't even need a starter. I choke it through two flips so that my finger is wet from the fuel and it starts every time on the third or fourth flick. I think that the trick is to set the engine right. I used a starter before with no problems at all.

Recycled Flyer

If fear of hand starting then please consider this -

Having had my MVVS 49 diesel conversion teach me a lesson one day about not leaving your digits in the way of the props spinning disk space, I belatedly recalled some sage advice from Gig Effliender of PAW engine fame.

Reworded because my memory is not faultless it goes something like this - make sure that your flipping hands pivot point is slightly outboard of the cranks centre when hand starting.
If you are right handed it simply means that the worst place to position your wrist is inboard or to the left of the cranks centre, OK is placing your wrist on the centre and best is placing your wrists pivot point slightly to outboard or to the right.

(By placing the pivot point offcentre like this it will mean that the exit point of your finger flip simply can not share the same exiting disk space as the prop does since it arcs away from the get go, and in theory you should never get whacked after a firing stroke.)

Combine this with placing yourself at a slight angle the props disk, closer to where you enter the disk space and further away from it at the exit.
(Right handed, place the port side wing slightly further aft of you.)

Another tip shared to me by a very experienced flyer is to place the pad of your finger at the top flat section of the prop's hub and not against its trailing edge.
If you flick only the more steeply pitched hub on its upper section, it should considerably lessen the chance of a trailing edge cut.)

Good Luck.

gossie

[QUOTE=raglafart

I've been playing around with a DC Merlin to use in a ducted fan model and use a smaller starter on that, It's on suction and works well too. I use the starter as the fans are from old PC cooling fans and finger flicking will flick the blades off and it's not a solution for starting in a DF model, I was going to make a wand for the smaller starter once I'd made the model.


You might consider a COX reed with spring start John. Instant start and much more power. Yeppoon Freddo and I have built Veron Sabres and Lavochkins that go well on the Cox.

brokenenglish

Franchi,
Stop messing around with all this fancy stuff. If your engines won't start easily and painlessly, then get one that will.
None of the engines you mention were designed to run diesel.
IMO, pretending that using a starter on diesels is "modern" is ridiculous. No good diesel needs a starter.
It really means that many unlikely engines can be made to run as a diesel if you use a starter! That maybe so, but it's not an approach I would adopt for trouble-free everyday flying.

Modestly, have a look at this video of my PAW 60. Any PAW will run like that, why are you messing with stuff that's just causing problems?

To Rags: John, you're using a very special engine, in a very specialised application, and you "know what you're doing".
The problem is that this question is always asked by beginners who either have difficult oddball engines, as in this case, or they don't have the experience to start a diesel anyway...
IMO, recommending a starter in such circumstances is a bit irresponsible.

wjvail

My Feedback: (3)

I don't know about anyone else but I give mine a flip. Job done.

Here's a little video I made a while back in response to many of the repeat questions I get. It's an attempt to give someone that's never run a diesel a feel for what's involved. It you wanted to say It's pretty long and boring, I might call you unkind but I wouldn't call you incorrect. Actual engine running/starting is at about 17 minutes.

Cheers,

Bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkCVRpx_qyQ

brokenenglish

Well said Bill!

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

A clubmate has just bought a bunch of MVVS 09 diesel engines/spares on that massive international auction site.

We were trying to establish how one of the engines could have been destroyed so effectively.

What do you think?

:-)

123Cat

Just running it , even Space Shuttle fuel lines crack

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

Well, one of the suggestions was that a flat screwdriver blade had been forced into the exhaust port when it was running.

But there is another more obvious probable cause. :-)

brokenenglish

Ray, Your post brought back a horrible nightmare memory.
When I was at school (around 1953), we used to run engines during break times.
I remember being horrified by one idiot who thought it was clever and funny to stop an ED Hunter by sticking a screwdriver into an exhaust port.

As you can see, I still get worked up about it even today...
Perhaps that's the reason why I have a great love for the early ED 3.46. I have quite a few, including the earliest known example, I think.

wjvail

My Feedback: (3)

Well... I appears the jug has tried to part company with the case. That suggests to me that cylinder pressures were somehow dramatically increased. My best guess is that the engine was run on improper fuel. Maybe gasoline. Even then I'm surprised it failed as it did. Maybe a crash started a crack or a manufacturing defect in the casting allowed a crack to propagate.

To my mind the real question is why is the connecting rod still in it?

Bill

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

BrokenEnglish, all the engines mentioned by Franchi make great Diesel conversions and some others I have personal experience with are LA .46, Fox .46 and .50, LA .65, SuperTigre .45, .51, ,90, 2300 and 4500. The Irvine .53 is a great conversion. There is absolutely nothing special about a purpose built Diesel when compared to a conversion. Her is my Fox .60 turning a 12x8 three blade at about 8,300 rpm.

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

Bill, my thoughts were that the irresistible force of the electric starter met the immovable object of the upper cylinder in "hydraulic lock".

Ray

Recycled Flyer

That's a hell of a finger flick that you have there Ray!

Too many Weet Bix in the morning?

123Cat

Well I felt like killing my motor this morning ,

I flicked for at least 3/4 hour and it would not start

brokenenglish

Normally, that shouldn't happen (obvious, I know, but it needs saying).
After 5 or 10 minutes, you should have stopped to consider what's wrong with the engine or fuel.
Don't mess with engines that don't start easily.
Within the next couple of days, I'm planning a little running/video session with a couple of Olivers and one of Basil Miles' engines... I bet they don't take 3/4 hour to start...