vsv123

I've checked these sources of Isopropyl nitrite (so called poppers).
These are realy boost significantly power, improve ignition. On my diesel Cox049, 3% of that "poppers" adds 50-60% of power and reduces compression about half turn back of counter piston screw
However It's not cheap ~$8..$10 for 25ml.. One 25ml bottle per fuel liter


Can anyone suggest another sources of ignition improvers, commercially available?

AMB

Amsoil cetane booster ethyl hexyl nitrate about $10 a pint a lot of us it in making model diesel fuel usually 1.5 to 2.5% will do it

best regards Martin

thought #2 David 1/2A fuel about $15 a quart no fuss no mixing a qt will last a long time in an 049

earlwb

The "poppers are illegal in the USA. Ether and the different nitrate substances are all tightly regulated and controlled. If it wasn't for the druggies we could be using all of that stuff in our engines. Way back in the late 1940's and 1950's your local pharmacist would happily mix up some model diesel engine fuel for you too. But not anymore unfortunately.
Like AMB stated Amsoil's cetane booster works well.

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

I think that you'll find that "Poppers" are actually Amyl Nitrate (AN), not Iso Propyl Nitrate (IPN).

As others have pointed out, AN works as a heart stimulate and is classed as dangerous in most Countries, and is therefore illegal..

It also works well as a model diesel Ignition Improver.

IPN is just as good, cheaper, safer, and legal. It can be obtained in Lab grade from a Chemical Supplier in the UK and Australia.

In a previous era it was used extensively by Air Forces as a starting fluid for Rolls Royce Avon Jet Engines (Canberra Bomber, CAC Sabre, Hawker Hunter etc). It was quite easy to get from your local friendly Air Force Member.

Current price here is about AUD150 for half a litre. There is a slight RPM advantage over Amsoil when used in Oliver Tiger style engines for Racing events. There is no advantage when used in modern engines.

Otherwise Amsoil is just as effective as an Ignition Improver at about one tenth the price. It's also available across the counter from Amsoil dealers. In Australia it can be sent by couriers at reasonable prices. The retail price is about AUD15 for about 400 ml.

Really serious diesel racers also use lab grade 2-EHN (2-Ethyl Hexyl Nitrate) as a DII. The active ingredient in Amsoil is 2-EHN.

Fiery has recently pointed out on another forum that the MSDS for Amsoil now claims that the 2EHN component can vary from 60 to 100% depending on the batch. . Previously it claimed 100% outright. This probably explains why poeple in my club (we bought a big box) have success with 1%, while others use 1.5% or more. Different batch different strength.

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

That is the best summation on the subject of "DII" I have read! Well done Ray.

The Amsoil Cetane Boost MSDS can be viewed here:

http://www.amsoil.com/msds/acb.pdf

In the Eurozone this product may be of assistance for DII:

http://www.bardahl.nl/en/product/123...sn-booster-en/

Or if you are serious about what you are getting and are happy to order on-line:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-EHN-High...item2ed21ac231

vsv123

The label states "Isopropyl nitrite".
Also the contens of bottle almost doesn't have any smell, unlike AmylNitrite

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

That's interesting!

Can you give us the products brand name?

Does it have an MSDS?

Where is it for sale?

So many questions.

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, I see what you mean. Some of the "Poppers" apparently do seem to contain IPN.

Possibly mislabelled to circumvent the Law?

That's unfortunate.all round :-(

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

I've just performed a minor experiment on myself in the interests of science.

I took the lid off the half full 150 ml bottle of IPN that I carry with my flying kit.

I carefully took a few sniffs. No increase in heart rate that I can feel.

No delayed slightly nauseous reaction (indicating increased heart rate and blood pressure) like I sometimes get after a few very strong cups of coffee.

The Wiki entry for "Poppers" suggests that it has a Boiling Point of 39 °C at 760 mm of Hg. Mainstream Chemical data sheets suggest a BP at standard pressure of about 101.5 Degrees C. If the former "IPN" is in fact a Popper product, it may indicate serious dilution..


This is a excerpt from the Wiki page on "Poppers" regarding legality.

"United Kingdom
In the United Kingdom, poppers are sold in gay clubs/bars, sex shops, drug paraphernalia head shops, over the Internet, and in markets. It is illegal under Medicines Act 1968 to sell them advertised for human consumption, and in order to bypass this, they are usually sold as odorizers. Those containing amyl nitrate are "very unlikely" to be sold as that compound is regulated as a medicine and isobutyl nitrite is "effectively banned" under The Dangerous Substances and Preparations (Safety) Regulations 2006.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs noted in 2011 that poppers "appear to fall within the scope of The Intoxicating Substances (Supply) Act 1985" if sold to minors.[SUP][29][/SUP]
United States

In the U.S., amyl nitrite was originally marketed as a prescription drug in 1937 and remained so until 1960, when the Food and Drug Administration removed the prescription requirement due to its safety record. This requirement was reinstated in 1969, after observation of an increase in recreational use. Other alkyl nitrites were outlawed in the U.S. by Congress through the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988. The law includes an exception for commercial purposes. The term commercial purpose is defined to mean any use other than for the production of consumer products containing volatile alkyl nitrites meant for inhaling or otherwise introducing volatile alkyl nitrites into the human body for euphoric or physical effects.[SUP][33][/SUP] The law came into effect in 1990.
Poppers containing alkyl nitrites other than amyl nitrite are readily available in the United States. Sometimes they are sold as video head cleaners, polish removers, or room odorisers. They have not regained the popularity they had in the 1970s."

vsv123

There are different nitrites used for these poppers:

Wikipedia:
Most widely sold concentrated products include the original compound amyl nitrite (isoamyl nitrite, isopentyl nitrite), cyclohexyl nitrite, isobutyl nitrite (2-methylpropyl nitrite), and isopropyl nitrite (2-propyl nitrite). Isopropyl nitrite became popular due to a ban on isobutyl nitrite in the EU in 2007. More rarely sold is the compound butyl nitrite.

So it seems label "Isopropyl Nitrite" tells truth

steve111

Am I missing something, or are we discussing two different things here? i.e. Isopropyl nitrate vs isopropyl nitrite​?

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

No Steve you haven't missed anything. But I did.

Isopropyl Nitrite has a boiling point of 39 degrees C, Isopropyl Nitrate, a different compound, has a BP of 101.5 degrees C.

So the 'Poppers" mercifully contain the other sort of IPN.

But it still seems to work as an Ignition Improver.

:-)

ffkiwi

I thought this was all well known-nitrItes and nitrAtes both work as ignition improvers in our engines-this has been known since the very late 40s early 50s-when amyl nitrAte was the compound of choice. The nitrItes have a more pronounced physiological effect-elevated heart rate, flushed skin, sensation of warmth when inhaled-even in small amounts. As ignition improvers however, they are not as effective as the nitrAtes-typical requiring 1/3-1/2 as much again added for the same effect. In practical terms this means for a fuel with 2% added NitrAte you would have to raise the level to 3% NitrIte for a similar effect. From a practical perspective, a lot of this became academic when amyl nitrAte became controlled and hard to get-amyl nitrIte of course was the 'popper' of choice until the authorities started stamping down hard on it-and other alternative-but similar nitrite compounds were found for recreational use. IPN became more readily available in the 70s and 80s for ignition improver use-especially in the UK, and in the US DII in it various forms started being used in model diesel fuel about the same time-largely thanks to Henry Nelson who bought enough of the stuff to supply the entire world's needs for about a decade..

As a kid I can remember going to the local chemist ('pharmacist' in US speak) with a bottle of club diesel fuel and getting him to crush a couple of ampoules of amyl nitrite into it-he was quite happy to do so once I'd explained why I wanted it. During my PhD days I used to make the stuff-and isopropyl nitrite as well in the lab at the weekend when things were quiet. It was quite a tedious process.

In NZ, by law, anyone handling cyanide routinely must carry or have within reach, isopropyl nitrite capsules as an antidote to cyanide poisoning. We had a packet in the fridge in our lab for such an eventuality. Outside of academia, rabbit and possum trappers would use it-and I imagine the two big functioning goldmines-McCraes Flat and the Marthas mine at Waihi would also have similar procedures as cyanide is used in quantity when processing gold bearing ore.

I can testify that the nitrite does have the effect described-and a mere whiff of it is all it takes. So that strongly indicates to me that vsv123's stuff was a long way off being pure-or is heavily diluted.-perhaps as little as 30% or so

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

I'm responsible fro the confusion here. VSV123 clearly identified the substance as a Nitrite, I misread it. as Nitrate. I was aware of the difference.

Back about 1962 or so when the Ryde Model Aircraft Club decided to sell diesel fuel as well as glow, because I lived closest to the Shell depot I got the job of buying a "one pound" bottle of either Amyl Nitrate or more likely Amyl Nitrite. I sent my mum off to get it while I was at work after arranging the transaction on the phone. She subsequently paid the 28 Shillings and brought it home. No questions, no problems.

I don't remember any of us being aware of increased heart rate or danger in it's use so it must have been the Nitrite. I have no recollection of any particular smell. It went into the diesel fuel mix, but the whole project was only a limited success because of a white precipitate that appeared in the fuel over time. We did filter it out and it worked ok in the engines. Shortly later most of us moved over to large OS Glow engines and I suspect that much of the 4 Gallon drum of premixed diesel fuel was dumped.

Now we know to only mix small quantities as needed.

Still whatever, I guess that there's no real need for any other Ignition Improver than Amsoil. My PAW 15 Diesel GTS2 went the fastest it's ever gone a few weeks ago on a fuel with it.. Others seem very happy as well.

vsv123

I think that's because you're live where they sell Amsoil. There are no dealers in Russia, and you can't buy/transport flamable liquids via regular (including express) post services. Customs prevent such traffic
There are different alternatives such as HiGear "TuneUp & CetaneBoost" and others, but need to test their efficency.
HiGear CetaneBoost MSDS says: 60..100% kerosene and 10..30% EthylHexyl nitrate. So need to rearrange fuel mix, to suit 1..1.5% of nitrate

vsv123

What indicates it's not pure or diluted?
Seller states there is 95% purity of Isopropyl. 25 ml poppers bottle evaporates completely without residue during an hour if you leave it open in room
I did not test other proportions than 3%. Probably 2% or 1.5% will work as well

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

Ah! It becomes clearer. If it's not an embarrassing question, where are you in Russia? I think that there's an Amsoil dealer in Germany. In Australia Amsoil can't be posted but if you order in sufficient quantity it can be sent via a private courier service from the National distributed about 1000 Km from here.. If you can get Ether as you obviously can, could you get lavatory grade IPN?

downunder

Just a minor correction but only the RAAF Sabre used IPN in the MK 26 Avon. The Canberras used either the Mk 1 Avon (single cartridge starter) or the Mk 109 Avon (triple cartridge starter). I don't know about Hawker Hunters though. Long ago I gave Tony Cincotta a gallon of IPN and he seemed rather happy with it . Also long ago, I once primed a Mills .75 with IPN and it started first flick in my hand.

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

Granted that the RR Avon used other starting systems as well. I believe that the first version appeared in 1948, and that they're probably still in production as an industrial power supply. I've just finished reading "Not much of an Engineer" by the then RR chief designer, Stanley Hooker. A really good read.

Versions of the Hunter certainly did use the AVPIN Starter as well. We had 76 Squadron RAAF equipped with Avon Sabres at Williantown and that was the source of the IPN up to the 1970's.


This is an extract from the Wiki entry for Aircraft Starters.
AVPIN starter

Versions of the Rolls-Royce Avon turbojet engine used a geared turbine starter motor that burned isopropyl nitrate as the fuel. In military service this monofuel had the NATO designation of S-746 AVPIN. For starting a measured amount of fuel was introduced to the starter combustion chamber then ignited electrically, the hot gases spinning the turbine at high revolutions with the exhaust exiting overboard.

ffkiwi

IN your own word-almost doesn't have any smell. ALL these alkyl nitrites and nitrites have a smell-take it from someone who is a) a chemist by training, b) a modeller and c) has made them-I am VERY familiar with these compounds. Lack of much smell in your commercial popper indicates that it is nowhere near pure. The fact that it leaves no residue after evaporation is irrelevant-these compounds are liquid in their normal state-and essentially insoluble in water-so if diluted, another organic solvent will be thecarrier-that too will evaporate without residue. This doesn't make it unusable, merely that you need to establish what the actual % of active compound is in the mix-then you can adjust the amount you add to fuel appropriately. It is possible that the shop you get it from may have an MSDS leaflet or something similar-or the bottle might have it printed somewhere on the label-probably in very small print! No way that 95% IPN is odorless....

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

vsv123

Well, it is subjective. For me there is almost no smell. For you it will be a bomb. You can buy it and check it yourself, instead of blablabla here. You can also distill this liquid, check fractions ratio and measure distillation temperatures of fractions. That will be more scientific and this will "indicate" you what purity is this stuff.
I bought this for model diesel fuel addition, and I don't care what's purity it is. The fact that very small amount of this stuff significantly increase power is sufficent for me. I'm not going to sniff it or use in medical purpose.

bogbeagle

You can buy cetane improvers for automotive use. Quite cheap.

These do work well in model applications, too.

qazimoto

My Feedback: (1)

The 2-Ethyl Heyxl Nitrate (like in Amsoil) imust be a more practical full size diesel additive than the Nitrite equivalent, least I can't find any mention of the latter being used as a Cetane enhancer. Nor can I find any product using IPN either Nitrate or Nitrite as a DIII in full size diesels.

So for 049's the Poppers might be the most cost effective seeing you're happy with the result..

Anyway, Amsoil do list a dealer in Russia.

Evgeny Deduchenko
38-A Nekrasovskaya St, Vladivostok, 690014 Russia
7.914.706.1580
[email protected]


Listed on this page:

http://www.amsoil.com/international/...es/Russia.aspx

vsv123

Thanks, but I'll check out HiGear cetane booster (a mix of 2-Ethyl Heyxl and kerosene), how effective is it for model diesel

blw

My Feedback: (3)

This thread has shrunk quite a bit once I took out the arguing and bickering. I took some good out along with a lot of the bad in order to not favor anyone or to take sides. There have been complaints.

As for amyl nitrate, when I was about 16 or 17 nobody knew what that stuff was. Never heard of it. There were a bunch of us one night at somebody's house watching TV, making noise, etc and somebody asked if I thought this suntan lotion stunk. The top was off the bottle so I took a whiff. I didn't smell much so i took a really big snort. I guess I was the last one in on the 'joke' but all of a sudden my heart was beating so fast and hard I thought it was going to tear itself out of my chest. It's a terrible feeling. Anyway, everyone got their laughs but I wouldn't have been in on doing that to anyone else. It was too dangerous and scary.