Everything Diesel Discuss R/C Diesel engines here.

Mills Replica?

Reply
Old 08-23-2015, 08:46 AM
  #1
modestmagi
Thread Starter
 
modestmagi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Too far away for a LPU
Posts: 67
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Mills Replica?

Hi guys,

This looks like one of the mini Mills Replicas to me, but I haven't been able to find matching pics to confim. Does anyone know anything about it?

Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20150821_175522.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	3.73 MB
ID:	2116261  
modestmagi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2015, 04:31 PM
  #2
qazimoto
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central Coast NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,284
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by modestmagi View Post
Hi guys,

This looks like one of the mini Mills Replicas to me, but I haven't been able to find matching pics to confim. Does anyone know anything about it?

Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated.
It's a MP Jet 040, of 0.65cc capacity. Not a Mills replica but a very nice little engine in the Mills tradition made in the Czech Republic. You can still buy them I suspect. If you Google the name you'll find lots of info.

Last edited by qazimoto; 08-23-2015 at 04:41 PM.
qazimoto is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 07:22 AM
  #3
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,988
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I concur, it is a MP Jet PB 040 engine. They do run nicely too. I have one and it worked really well.
earlwb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:10 PM
  #4
modestmagi
Thread Starter
 
modestmagi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Too far away for a LPU
Posts: 67
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Thanks for the help.

Now that I know what it is, I see that there is a lot of info about it online and agree that it is a very nice little engine.
modestmagi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 09:55 PM
  #5
ffkiwi
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Upper HuttWellington, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 1,522
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

These are hardly a new item on the market-they've been around since the mid 1990s-availability can be a bit sporadic, but they're an excellent item directly comparable in handling to a good Mills-and thanks to their less restrictive porting slightly more powerful than the Mills, I did the original engine test on them published in 'Model Engine World'. Extremely well made, from durable materials they seem to be at least as long lasting as a Mills (and possiblt ultimately better, since they have a steel conrod rather than an ally one-which was the achilles heel of the original Mills...

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
ffkiwi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 10:09 AM
  #6
j.hiner@comcast.net
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Posts: 466
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I have run Mills replicas from India, China and Russia. The little MP Jet is a much better engine in my opinion. After obtaining two MP Jet I got rid of the Mills. Jack
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	MP Jet Classic (2).jpg
Views:	67
Size:	962.2 KB
ID:	2116685  
j.hiner@comcast.net is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 04:26 PM
  #7
ffkiwi
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Upper HuttWellington, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 1,522
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Aah-but have you run an original, a Doonside or an Irvine? Those represent the standard for comparison-not the cheap replicas!.............

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
ffkiwi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2015, 05:29 PM
  #8
j.hiner@comcast.net
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Posts: 466
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Never ran the original or Doonside. But have run both Irvine .75 and 1.3 cc and nice. Indian the worst. China a bit better. I understand newer CS Mills are improved but have not run these. Russian were powerful but one had a stuck contra piston. .Jack
j.hiner@comcast.net is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 07:31 AM
  #9
mchandrayan
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Posts: 137
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Old thread but, must in order to put the facts straight. The Indian Mills were and are the only authentic and legal Mills post the production ceased in UK. Every other Mills made any where else was a replica and in strictly legal terms an illegal copy.
In the same vein would also agree that the Indian production of Mills could have done better. I have owned and ran a few and never had any issues
mchandrayan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 11:02 AM
  #10
ffkiwi
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Upper HuttWellington, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 1,522
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchandrayan View Post
Old thread but, must in order to put the facts straight. The Indian Mills were and are the only authentic and legal Mills post the production ceased in UK. Every other Mills made any where else was a replica and in strictly legal terms an illegal copy.
In the same vein would also agree that the Indian production of Mills could have done better. I have owned and ran a few and never had any issues

I suspect you're in a majority of one with this opinion-and it IS opinion-not fact! Mills Bros (Model Engineers) was taken over by Ayling Industries in the early 1960s-around 1961-who subsequently decided they could no longer support production (the reasons were never made clear-economic? didn't meet/match the wider Ayling Group product line? didn't want to be associated with the 'toy' image-who knows?) and production ceased in 1964. Woking Models subsequently acquired some/all of the existing factory spares inventory. Quite a few years later-ca early1970s an Indian businessman-Mr Kumar- acquired the tooling, jigs and fixtures for the Mills range. Whether he also acquired exclusive production rights and all other rights to the name is debatable-and unless you have viewed the actual relevant documents-impossible to say. Equally- it is unclear from what commercial or private entity he purchased the tooling and other 'rights'-and whether this entity had full legal ownership-and exactly what the sale covered.Then there have been at least two changes of manufacturer in India-again without viewing the documents you cannot say whether all rights were transferred at each stage.
The Austrialian Doonside Mills project began ca 1972-before the Indian engines appeared on the market. I doubt any lawyer would take you up on your assertion that every other replica is an illegal copy-the .25cc and 0.4cc miniatures certainly can't be-the Irvines have sufficient structural differences not to be copies. The Hobbs doesn't even look like a Mills-the only areas where you might be on firmer ground are the CS Mills and the few replicas made from Schroder crankcase castings......and I'm not sure what the legal position would be on the latter.....

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'
ffkiwi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 03:10 PM
  #11
fiery
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hervey Bay Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,918
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Astute observations Chris.

Which leads us to the question: did a buyer ever eventuate for the rights and tooling for the various Mills designs that Aurora Manufacturing (Pte.) Ltd. are selling?
fiery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2016, 03:25 AM
  #12
mchandrayan
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Posts: 137
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hello! Chris ,
May be I offended you, that was not the intention. But what you say "IS" also not necessarily complete fact but largely opinion.

You may have noticed I wrote "After production ceased in UK" . That would include any engines either Ayling or Woking may have manufactured/assembled.

Which means, there was no other legitimate production any where else in the world till such time Mr Suresh Kumar of Aurora resurrected the line.

Aurora acquired the legal rights, the brand name, good will, tools and fixtures and any WIP/Material that remained. I am not sure if you have substance to base your doubt on Aurora acquiring the full and exclusive rights or whether that is based on hearsay. Would love to know more in case it is substance.

As for change of ownership withing India, that is not a fact. It was either authorized by Aurora or blatant attempts to use the Mills brand name and intellectual property.
And too add on, the Irvine Mills were authorized by Aurora, and they had some reciprocal arrangement.

As for Doonside Mills appearing in 1972, earlier than Indian Mills appearing, the earlier timeline alone will not make it legal. From what you say the rights were acquired by Aurora in 1970, so any one else who made these and used the brand name and goodwill was not on right side of the law. And to rebutt the argument about timeline. Which market? What if Aurora was already making and selling the legal Mills in India before 1972?
As for difference in size and other minor differences in appearance etc, yes completely agree to you. But then they are not Mills. Are they?
In fact I know of few cases where Aurora did pursue legal remedy route in India and abroad to protect their interests and these parties either ceased production or dropped the Mills name. I am sure being Mills fan most here would be aware of some of the names that were involved in these cases I just mentioned.
In fact it surprising that Aurora did not take that route much earlier. May be the advent of internet made things more visible.

But the bottom line is that in case some one competent and with resources does not pick up the line, it would be lost.

Let's all enjoy the whiff of ether till then
mchandrayan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2016, 02:34 PM
  #13
ffkiwi
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Upper HuttWellington, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 1,522
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

No mchandrayan I am not offended-but I will make some points in rebuttal

i. are you a principal of Aurora or partner of Mr Suresh Kumar and have you personally sighted the original document of sale between Mr Kumar and Mills Bros or Ayling industries? (or an cerified authenticated copy] If you haven't then all you're saying is also just opinion or hearsay. Without the original document which will spell out in excruciating detail exactly what items were being sold, both physical and intellectual you are speculating.

ii. the Mills patents were held not by Mills-but by Mr AL Hardinge, who became their general manager-and what residual retention of rights would have occurred is unclear. What the exact legal position would have been regarding transfer of the various intellectual rights-trademark, name etc after Mills was taken over by Ayling Industries is equally unclear. It may be that Ayling did not own proprietorial rights some of what they subsequently sold on to Mr Kumar-that is if Ayling Industries group was the vendor as opposed to Mills Bros. [Equally pertinent here is that model diesels were only ONE of Mills Bros model products-they were also active in the area of model train rolling stock, track and equipment-which I imagine if sold similarly, would have been sold to a different buyer] In takeover situations not everything is necessarily acquired.

iii. I should like to see some evidence that the Irvine Mills were authorised by Aurora-particularly in light of the fact (and this IS fact not opinion) that NONE of the key parts are interchangeable between the two 75s (though you can exchange complete carb assemblies but not subparts)-if any such authorisation/licensing took place I would expect to see some reference to it in the literature accompanying the engine-which is the normal practice.

iv. I doubt that Indian commercial law is applicable or enforcable outside of India so I doubt that Aurora would have had any legal recourse against the Doonside project, the Irvines, the Russian made ones or the CS offerings. The two key principals behind the Doonside Mills-Ivor F and Gordon Burford-have left us, so we have no idea what discussions about licensing, copyright etc may or may not have occurred.

v. I would not get too fixated on 1970 as the critical year-mention of the Indian acquisition of Mills was made in Aeromodeller in the early 1970s-but when the negotiations commenced and when the actual transfer of rights occurred is unclear-see point 1 again-said document/documents will certainly be dated. The negotiations might have gone on for some time. Again IIRC it has never been clearly stated (in the modelling press at least) from what commercial entity Mr Kumar acquired the rights to continue production. The last reference I can find to Ayling Industries Group suggests they were still around in 1977 in some form-but they were clearly a classic corporate-buying and selling subsidiaries, merging and demerging-so what became of Mills Bros (Model engineers) plc over the years is a bit of a mystery....

vi. regarding Woking models, IIRC at the time Aeromodeller stated that 'remaining stocks of spare parts for these engines are now held by Woking Models'-there was never any suggestion that Woking Models were assembling engines from spares and then selling them. Since Mills Bros were located in Woking it makes a degree of sense that the local retail model shop would be a sensible place to offload the remaining stocks. Equally it was never stated that Woking Models had purchased the remaining spares-merely that they could be obtained from them....perhaps the money still went back to Mills?

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

Last edited by ffkiwi; 03-18-2016 at 02:37 PM.
ffkiwi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2016, 02:42 PM
  #14
fiery
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hervey Bay Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,918
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

It's all water under the bridge.

Any rights asserted by any owner of the intellectual property will have long ago expired. All common law countries have a statute of limitations, and the protagonists are all no longer with us or long since ceased production.
fiery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2017, 04:55 AM
  #15
mchandrayan
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Posts: 137
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffkiwi View Post
No mchandrayan I am not offended-but I will make some points in rebuttal

i. are you a principal of Aurora or partner of Mr Suresh Kumar and have you personally sighted the original document of sale between Mr Kumar and Mills Bros or Ayling industries? (or an cerified authenticated copy] If you haven't then all you're saying is also just opinion or hearsay. Without the original document which will spell out in excruciating detail exactly what items were being sold, both physical and intellectual you are speculating.

ii. the Mills patents were held not by Mills-but by Mr AL Hardinge, who became their general manager-and what residual retention of rights would have occurred is unclear. What the exact legal position would have been regarding transfer of the various intellectual rights-trademark, name etc after Mills was taken over by Ayling Industries is equally unclear. It may be that Ayling did not own proprietorial rights some of what they subsequently sold on to Mr Kumar-that is if Ayling Industries group was the vendor as opposed to Mills Bros. [Equally pertinent here is that model diesels were only ONE of Mills Bros model products-they were also active in the area of model train rolling stock, track and equipment-which I imagine if sold similarly, would have been sold to a different buyer] In takeover situations not everything is necessarily acquired.

iii. I should like to see some evidence that the Irvine Mills were authorised by Aurora-particularly in light of the fact (and this IS fact not opinion) that NONE of the key parts are interchangeable between the two 75s (though you can exchange complete carb assemblies but not subparts)-if any such authorisation/licensing took place I would expect to see some reference to it in the literature accompanying the engine-which is the normal practice.

iv. I doubt that Indian commercial law is applicable or enforcable outside of India so I doubt that Aurora would have had any legal recourse against the Doonside project, the Irvines, the Russian made ones or the CS offerings. The two key principals behind the Doonside Mills-Ivor F and Gordon Burford-have left us, so we have no idea what discussions about licensing, copyright etc may or may not have occurred.

v. I would not get too fixated on 1970 as the critical year-mention of the Indian acquisition of Mills was made in Aeromodeller in the early 1970s-but when the negotiations commenced and when the actual transfer of rights occurred is unclear-see point 1 again-said document/documents will certainly be dated. The negotiations might have gone on for some time. Again IIRC it has never been clearly stated (in the modelling press at least) from what commercial entity Mr Kumar acquired the rights to continue production. The last reference I can find to Ayling Industries Group suggests they were still around in 1977 in some form-but they were clearly a classic corporate-buying and selling subsidiaries, merging and demerging-so what became of Mills Bros (Model engineers) plc over the years is a bit of a mystery....

vi. regarding Woking models, IIRC at the time Aeromodeller stated that 'remaining stocks of spare parts for these engines are now held by Woking Models'-there was never any suggestion that Woking Models were assembling engines from spares and then selling them. Since Mills Bros were located in Woking it makes a degree of sense that the local retail model shop would be a sensible place to offload the remaining stocks. Equally it was never stated that Woking Models had purchased the remaining spares-merely that they could be obtained from them....perhaps the money still went back to Mills?

ChrisM

ffkiwi'
Now this should provide quite a bit for information to settle who had the right rights to Mills
AdriansModelAeroEngines.com :: Aurora model engines (India)
mchandrayan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2017, 02:40 PM
  #16
lean-run
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Victoria AUSTRALIA
Posts: 77
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I have each of all mk.'s and models Mills engines. (except a 2.4, any one got one for sale!)
I also have copies by Aurora, Irvine, "Z" stamped Russian, Attachport,, CS, and simply the best, Doonside mk1 and 11.
(ah yes, I remember sending my $12.95 (?) to pre-order the mk1 in '72!)

Should I live in fear of being "busted" for flying "boot-leg" engines and having them all confiscated?
lean-run is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2017, 09:52 PM
  #17
qazimoto
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central Coast NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,284
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lean-run View Post
I have each of all mk.'s and models Mills engines. (except a 2.4, any one got one for sale!)
I also have copies by Aurora, Irvine, "Z" stamped Russian, Attachport,, CS, and simply the best, Doonside mk1 and 11.
(ah yes, I remember sending my $12.95 (?) to pre-order the mk1 in '72!)

Should I live in fear of being "busted" for flying "boot-leg" engines and having them all confiscated?
I've packed all mine in grease, sealed them in a PVC pipe and buried them in the backyard. There'll probably be an amnesty or buyback soon :-)


(An Australian joke)
qazimoto is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2017, 12:20 AM
  #18
lean-run
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Victoria AUSTRALIA
Posts: 77
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by qazimoto View Post
I've packed all mine in grease, sealed them in a PVC pipe and buried them in the backyard. There'll probably be an amnesty or buyback soon :-)


(An Australian joke)
And a very good one! I like it.
They will take out the tommy-bar, strip the crank-shaft thread, and bend the needle valve.
Thus creating a lucrative "black-market" of non-conforming Mills replicas.
lean-run is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2017, 01:16 AM
  #19
qazimoto
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central Coast NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,284
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lean-run View Post
And a very good one! I like it.
They will take out the tommy-bar, strip the crank-shaft thread, and bend the needle valve.
Thus creating a lucrative "black-market" of non-conforming Mills replicas.
Indeed!

Concerning the notion expressed above about many Mills 75 "replica's" being illegal copies, I'm no legal expert but I understood that model engines were things, not intellectual property. While the name "Mills" could be copyrighted, but nothing else. A Patent however could be approved for original ideas inherent in their design. I'm very aware of the struggles by the Wright Brothers to establish their rights over the design of their wing warping controls for example. They couldn't copyright or patent the whole thing, just the innovation they thought up. The Mills 75 wasn't particularly original, there were lots of other engines during the late '40's that looked like it and had similar features.

I thought I read somewhere that it was pretty much a copy of a successful French design?

Last edited by qazimoto; 06-30-2017 at 03:51 PM.
qazimoto is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2017, 05:41 AM
  #20
mchandrayan
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Posts: 137
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by lean-run View Post
I have each of all mk.'s and models Mills engines. (except a 2.4, any one got one for sale!)
I also have copies by Aurora, Irvine, "Z" stamped Russian, Attachport,, CS, and simply the best, Doonside mk1 and 11.
(ah yes, I remember sending my $12.95 (?) to pre-order the mk1 in '72!)

Should I live in fear of being "busted" for flying "boot-leg" engines and having them all confiscated?


Not if you ask politely
mchandrayan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2017, 05:50 AM
  #21
mchandrayan
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Posts: 137
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by qazimoto View Post
Indeed!

Concerning the notion expressed above about many Mills 75 "replica's" being illegal copies, I'm no legal expert but I understood that model engines were things, not intellectual property. Therefore they couldn't be Copyrighted, but a Patent could be approved for original ideas inherent in their design. I'm very aware of the struggles by the Wright Brothers to establish their rights over the design of their wing warping controls for example. They couldn't copyright or patent the whole thing, just the innovation they thought up. The Mills 75 wasn't particularly original, there were lots of other engines during the late '40's that looked like it and had similar features.

I thought I read somewhere that it was pretty much a copy of a successful French design?
The English law did not think so, resulting in compensation to the rightful owners
mchandrayan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2017, 03:54 PM
  #22
qazimoto
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central Coast NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,284
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchandrayan View Post
The English law did not think so, resulting in compensation to the rightful owners
I've never heard of that before, please give us details.
qazimoto is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2017, 02:32 PM
  #23
fiery
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hervey Bay Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,918
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Ray

My understanding is the late Mr Boddington settled out of court following proceedings by the owner (Aurora Pte. Ltd of India). However the wash-up was he had to stop using the 'Mills' name in anything to do with the range of engines hitherto sold as 'Boddo Mills' engines.
fiery is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2017, 02:48 PM
  #24
qazimoto
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central Coast NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,284
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiery View Post
Ray

My understanding is the late Mr Boddington settled out of court following proceedings by the owner (Aurora Pte. Ltd of India). However the wash-up was he had to stop using the 'Mills' name in anything to do with the range of engines hitherto sold as 'Boddo Mills' engines.
So the legal action was about Boddington using the name "Mills" not the design?
qazimoto is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:35 PM.