SGC

The Auto parts store I do casual work in carries a 5W-40 mineral oil made by a small oil Co here in Australia they also do straight 30W, 40W,50W and 70W grades among there range, also synthetics and synthetic/castor blends.
Stewart

Motorboy

When Merugo are writing about centistoke in oliveoil or modificated oliveoil, he has long nose as Pinocchio. Sure he has not equipment to measure oil viscosity.. [sm=50_50.gif]

I has checked the centistoke oil number who he wrote this:
MEASURED VISCOSITY:
OLIVE UNMODIFIED 61 centistokes,
MODIFIED OLIVE 68 centistokes,
UNMODIFIED SUNFLOWER 56 centistokes.

The oil will have very high viscosity than gearoil if the oil had centistoke at 56 or 68..

Jens Eirik

merugo

Sorry , Jans,
before naming someone Pinocchio I suggest you to wash twice your mouth. But your ignorance begs for pardon, so I forgive.
Starting from ignorance, it is allowed to everyone, since everyone is born ignorant, but something can made to alleviate this state, if one applies to. So you can usefully spend a bit of the time studying a little instead of writing stupid offences in . Also if you are a lazy one and like to start from the end, make a short check and you will cease in trumpeting sillinesses.
Gear oil, as every oil, has a viscosity strongly dependent from temperature, for example SAE 140 has about 1500 centistokes @ 20°C, and SAE 90 around 1000 centistokes. Maybe you, being in Norway, are more accustomed to whale oil, or better to oil of spermacets, it is a very low viscosity "gear" oil, but it is useful only for watches, or better for gun pointing optics, but unuseful for engines. In order to arrive to less than 100 centistokes , ordinary gear oils must surpass a temperature of 60°C.
Edible vegetable oils have a viscosity, at room temperature, varying from 30 to 90 centistokes, and a large variability has been found not only between species, but also between different cultivars, and also between different crops of the same type, and from the methods of extraction and refining, and from the age.... As a rule of thumb, if it is not too much for you, it has been assessed that the viscosity of a vegetable oil depends from its composition, or better it seems to be possible to model it as a constant plus a contribute from saturated fats, plus a higher contribute from monounsaturated fats minus a smaller contribute from double unsaturated fats and so on.
As for my measurements, you can think what you want, it does not matter to me. My work has ever been making measurements, and I teached them at the university. Measuring viscosity is not an extraordinary task, maybe it can seem so to you, but this is a problem of yours. If you pass for Rome I will show it to you
End of lesson one and of the course for you.
Ugo

merugo

David,
what is the meanig of "to intend" for you? Was America intended for Columbus or was Columbus intended for America? For me they were both just at the right time in the same place. If you mean "usable" I reply "I don't know yet".
Olive oil has one main characteristic, a viscosity in the range of motor oils. It can be useful alone, but the most promising perspective it is in mixing with castor, since this is the ONLY way to modulate its viscosity ( and mixibility) with a component with the most resembling nature to it.
Now I ask,what is the suggested viscosity for a certain model engine?, or, more simply, what is the suggested viscosity of its oil at 100°C , and at 150°C, and 200°C?, I don't know, and I did never see these simple data, numbers, anywhere, If you have a reference I will appreciate.
As for olive oil, they are at last three basic marketable oils cold pressed fresh harvested,etc, that means about no free fatties, cold pressed with high acidity, that means a higher free fatties content, and hot or chemically extracted, the maximum free fatties. You eat all three, the first at home, the second on the salad in the restaurants, the fourth in their dishes. Since the role of free fatties in a lubrificant has been suggested to be of some importance, being the more acid the more viscous (they say), this could be of some interest, also because the cheapest could be the more viscous.
Greg ,
a mineral oil SAE 5-40, is simply that one following the approprate curve (better to say line) on the ASTM chart. It is simply made of a SAE5 base with the adequate quantity of viscosity modulator. No need to be commercially produced,I guess.
Ugo

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

Ugo, I assumed you were comparing to a sample of 5W-40 you had. I know what you are saying. Can you post the cSt figures you observed. SAE ratings have a range. What type of viscometer are you doing tests with?

Jens the viscosity of oil varies as does the viscosity index. The most important figure is going to be 100C and we would like to have something that survives well at maybe 150C. In a model enigne we could really care less wha the viscosity is at -20C, the 5w portion of the spec.

David, partially hydrogenated fats were never meant to be consumed by humans, but economy of production and profits for food producers stuffs it down our throats every day.

David Owen

ORIGINAL: merugo

David,
what is the meanig of "to intend" for you? Was America intended for Columbus or was Columbus intended for America? For me they were both just at the right time in the same place. If you mean "usable" I reply "I don't know yet".
Ugo


I am on your side, Ugo.

Much of what you are saying is outside my realm of technical experience, but I have no doubt
of your expertise.

One thing to be aware of is the inability of us all to understand the nuances of translation from Italian, Norwegian etc, into English.

It is easy to misinterpret meaning and this can lead to others being upset.

with kind regards
David Owen

merugo

David, thanks.
Greg, measurements made wth open cup method, calibrating fluids at 32 and 82 centistokes and calbration curve following common open cup law, mean observed values: 126centistokes@8°C, 102@22°C, 28@80°C, 21@88°C. Mean values. No regression made since doubtful on the applicability of ASTM chart to this case. Other vegetable and mixed animal oils seem to have similar high temperature values, but I need to change measuring set for coping with 100°C and more.
It will be interesting to see castor oil, as I buy a fresh one, and more interesting to see if mixing olive with castor will follow the general rule of common vegetable oil, that states the resulting viscosity as the weighted value of those of components.
Ugo

Motorboy

Merugo.. now you got double long nose as Pinocchio,
It is your own fantasy how you measured the oil ... There are not enough explained which measure instrument you used to measure viscosity

From the book: Læren om slitasje og smøreteknikk ( Theory about wear and lubricating technique) as here...

There are 2 difference open cup in warm water container: Saybolt, Engler and 1 closed cup in warm water container: Redwood
And then there are difference capillar tupe of glass to measure viscosity such as: Fenske-cannon, Ubbelohde, Fitzsimons etc...
And last test instrument are centiPoise

Cinematic viscosity in centiStoke : cS= C x t - B:t
C are instrument calibrated constant
t= time in seconds
B=constant varied with capillar tube diametre.

cS=centiPoise x density

The other word viscosity are Centipoise as here...

Light machine oil @ 20°C 102 cP
Motor oil SAE 10 50-100cP 65cP
Motor oil SAE 20 125cP
Motor oil SAE 30 150-200cP
Motor oil SAE 40 250-500cP 319cP
Motor oil SAE 50 540cP
Motor oil SAE 60 1,000-2000cP
Motor oil SAE 70 1,600cP

Vegetable oil:
Linseedoil (Raw) 28cP
Linseedoil (Boiled) 64cP
Corn oil 72cP
Olive oil @ 20°C 84.0 cP
Caster oil @ 20°C 986 cP
Glycerin @ 20°C 1,410-1,490 cP

As all can see fatty oil has low viscosity except castoroil who has high viscosity. See at the linseed oil got higher viscosity after the oil was boiled. As we know modificated oliveoil get improved viscosity after glyserin are added and get higher boiling point when water are removed from oliveoil. Raw olive oil are about same as motoroil Sae 10.



whale oil are not selling here in Norway since last whale oil was sold end of 1960 when oil was founded in North sea here..


Since you has not answered to SGC this: "could you test Castor and motor oil useing the same method and post the results please."
Here are the copy of viscosity of castoroil with methanol measured with Ostwalt capillar viscometer.

SGC

Jen,
Thanks for posting the vicosity chart, its great that it shows the oils at a std temp. Experiance has shown we need a mineral oil of 50-70 to give similar results to castor- your figures confirm this. The figures would also indicate that something major is happening to the Olive oil dureing modification as it goes from 84 to 600-1000- my estimate from my own tests, as its viscosity after modding is in a similar range to castor or 50-70 motor oils. My results with modified mixed vegitable oils-cheap cooking oil, produced an oil of lower viscosity, in my estimate similar to 30w motor oil, which in my oppinion was not good enough for our needs.
Stewart

merugo

Jens,
I see you try to fullfill your ignorance of the matter by copying books . Well done , this is the first step. With some additional work and patience you will understand HOW YOU can measure viscosity:
As it is clear, you don't know that the "open cup viscometer" is UNIVERSALLY the ZAHN viscometer, as I used, and that IT MEASURES DIRECTLY CINEMATIC VISCOSITY, working through the gravity applied to a fixed sample volume!
I see you remain astonished about the impossibility of measuring viscosity, I repeat, your problem, not mine. My numbers hold perfectly, see the viscosity of unmodifyied olive oil you are referring! What is moving your unjustifyied envy I don't know, but you can spend better your time than giving free judgments to the wind. Positively you are an ignorant no more excusable, since you copy and refuse to understand, an incurable malaise. Please, instead of pinocching all the way, send me a sample of yor castor oil, after having MEASURED (not copied, pls) its viscosity with temperature, I will say the numbers I measure.
One answer:in confidence, when at school you were accustomed to copy other's work?
End of the bonus lesson
Ugo

merugo

Stewart,
I made many batches of modified olive oil and it never reached such high viscosities as you observed. Furtherly your different types of oil DO show the regular behaviour I observed. If your obsevation holds, rapeseed-canola should behave rather similarly to olive, having the nearest fatty composition. Did you try modifying it?
I suppose that an extreme thickening of olive oil ,as it seems you have reached, is possible after a prolonged deep frying, so what was the highest temperature you reached, and how long?
Ugo

Motorboy

Yes, i am ignorant because i am car mechanic and we in carshop has course about oilproducts, viscosity etc from Shell Norway once time every year arranged by Bertel o. Steen A/S, importer of Mercedes and Peugeot cars who are our specialist in our carshop.

I am book collector. I ended at scool for car mechanic in 1989 then worked as car mechanic to present.

It is uneccesary to be desperate to show you are clever than all folks in RCU when you are writing a long post here then we can find some of them are unfamiliar with facts and knowledge of us here in RCU.

I am seeking after facts before i can answer, never from head full of fantasy as someone can do it when they are writing a new post..

As we say: Trust are good, but control are best!

Jens Eirik

SGC

Ugo,
I first modified the olive oil useing twice the amounts of detergent , glycerine , water originaly quoted for the cheap vegi oil , i allowed it to cool and drained off the clear oil , i then repeated the process with more ingrediants , so i effectively used 4 times the ingrediants in a 2 stage process, this yeilded a high viscosity oil. i next tried oseing 4x the ingrediants in a single heating and didnt get the same result, it was thicker than the cheap mixed oil but not as thick as the double processed olive oil. I then reprocessed the second lot of oil adding the same 2x ingrediants and got an oil similar to my first batch of olive oil . so it would seem a 2 stage process yeilds better results
Stewart

SGC

Ugo,
I didnt measure temps dureing the process , i just bought the mix to the boil , then turned it down to just a simmer and stired the froth back into the mix till no more frothing occured then turned off the heat n left it to cool n settle.
I have tried cheap mixed cooking oil, ricebran oil- complete failure, no improvement at all, on reading about the oil it was found to be high in vit E , this may make the oil too stable to modify.
From the reading I have done on vegitable oils as lubricants -ie bio lubes , there are many factors which determine the oils suitability and ability to have its viscosity increased , the ratio of saturated , non saturated and monosaturated fats, vit E level and the nature of the species molecule structure , its all very complex. me not being a chemist has to just sukit n see. I am a qualified motor mechanic and diesel fitter since 1972, so have some practicle experiance as to oils and lubrication.
Stewart
Oh another point i remember reading is that the environment the plant is grown in effects the chemical composition of its products , so slight variations in oils will be seen from the same species grown in different locations, the oil i used was produced here in australia.

merugo

Stewart,thanks.
I will try making another stage of modification to see if it thickens. I suspect the repeated cooking is the real reason of observed thickening. Maybe all the procedure is simply a bleaching (not really necessary) with the detergent and a thickening due to polymerization. This will be easily verified by following the procedure simply with water and detergent, NO glycerin at all! A similar process is used for degumming castor.
I guess vitamin E (tocopherol) has a minor role if the oil has not to whitstand high temperatures during processing
Another word. When process has ended I did not find solid matter, only glycerin with a very light dark hue.
Ugo

slope-soarer

I first modified the olive oil useing twice the amounts of detergent , glycerine , water originaly quoted for the cheap vegi oil , i allowed it to cool and drained off the clear oil , i then repeated the process with more ingrediants , so i effectively used 4 times the ingrediants in a 2 stage process, this yeilded a high viscosity oil.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I will have to try that !
Thanks for that information Stewart. You will have noticed from some of my posts that I have had some success with modified olive oil. I must admit that, so far, I have used it along with mineral oil as I haven't yet had the courage to use just the olive oil on it's own. I findthat with a percentage of the lubricant being olive oil that the engine runs better and idles very slow and steady.Throttling, even after long periods of idling is impressive. The model is also much easier to clean off after flying.

I must try doing a second stage of modification on the oil to get increased viscosity.... sounds very promising.

I tried modifying cheap vegetable cooking oil. It was not very viscous and buggered up the wrist pin and small end bearing surface.... fortunately it was a "sacrificial" engine. The modified olive oil is different again to the cheap cooking oil.

I had just started thinking about modifying olive oil instead when you first posted some information about it. That gave me an added incentive to give it a try.

Good one mate !!!

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

When making small batches of Biodiesel, I found as well, that a two stage process can provide interesting results.

Motorboy

Wrong, you never told about ZAHN viscometer here in RCU.. it is not common measure instrument for testing of oil calculated for engine/machine..

The ZAHN viscometer are most used in paint industry, printing office, food industry, carpainter for fast checking of viscosity of liquid.. not presise to measure viscosity as Saybolt-, engler- or Redwood viscosimeter who has less tolerance until 2.5-3% tolerance, ZAHN viscometer has a tolerance rate at 20% and 2 seconds more or less, it is too coarse tolerance.

Best to use this: http://www.coleparmer.com/Catalog/pr...sp?sku=0870210 , the viscometer are presise to measure viscosity and varies from ±0.2 to ±1.0%, depending upon time of descent. Or this: http://www.rheologysolutions.com/fallingball_techs.html , http://www.geneq.com/catalog/en/visco_ball.html

Jens Eirik

Stuntguy13

After looking through 793 post on the thread I have come to the conclusion that with model diesels there is lots of different ways to mix fuel. If you like chemistry the Biodiesel will be fun to make and try also will save the planet (well maybe not from the amount the we use). So if we are not saving the planet what was this thread about - as I see it a way to make CHEAP FUEL.

So the cheapest easy start fuel seems to be with low ether content and other stuff. Most of the ether mixes discussed were either ether from Eric C or JD starter fluid. Both these are small quanities and with JD sf at $3+ for 7oz (about $54 per gal) its pretty expensive, ether from Eric is not that much different plus the haz shipping.

There is an option that has not been discussed and that is CHEAP WalMart starter fluid ($1.99 for 14oz of fluid, it may be as low as $1.35), it is about 48% ether and 52%hexane to this just add oil say 3oz and go. If the oil is castor at $6qt or for 3 oz about $0.56 plus the WM starter fluid 14 oz at $1.99 you get fuel at $2.55 per pint (ish) or around $20 gal which is about what glow is but you get twice the mileage so its like $10 gal of glow fuel. You could throw in some kero but in think the heat value of the hexane is just about the same as kero so the only thing one might add is Cetane improver and go. Anyone else try this?

LeeHop

Stuntguy et al -
Glad to see someone still interested in this thread. I did a thread search on "hexane" and came up with this interesting post by Ring Winger [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4621833]Ring Winger's musings[/link]
It sounds to me like you need a component with more "energy density" (like kerosene, for instance). But I like your concept. Wallmart starter fluid + kerosene (or lamp oil or biodiesel) + oil + ignition improver.
Time to experiment!
-LeeH

AMB

Many years ago I was assisant production supervisor in a small pharmacuetical co, before going into the retail and hospital pharmacy we used a simple device called a a stormer'
viscometer it was quite a simple device that uses a string over a pulley with a weight that turned a rotor imersed in the sample and gave a direct readout on a dial indicator to measure our liquid products do not know if still used but worked pretty well simple and fast martin
basically a low speed tach resistance ( viscosity of the sample) would just give a read low faster, higher thicker slower) and compare reads to a standard chart
sort of looked like a scaled down egg beater you turn the crank on, only the motion was supplied by the standard weight, string and pulley

One more thing guys the tests, methods, results, and yes a lot of effort has gone into them and it is great to share and inform but feel that personal attacks and remarks are not called for

Stuntguy13

One correction on the WalMart starter fluid it is Heptane and de ether, there is no hexane. A quick look for information indicates that Heptane is similar to hexane but with a lower boiling pt, similar to gasoline. Rather than spend lots of time researching the stuff now I'm just going to give it a try and see how it runs (if it runs) compared to std Aerodyne.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Lee,

Thanks for linking us to Kelly's informed post.

Stuntguy,

Thanks for the heads up on WalMart's starter fluid. While Heptane has an autoignition point higher (222) than ether (170), it's still not bad and in a pinch will help.

I've taken that old, beat up Norvel .15 I used for exotic fuel experiments last year and rebuilt it with a P/L set that has significant pinch at TDC. After getting it limbered up on 10% Cool Power, I had a go at it with some BioDiesel.

In the end, only the addition of ether would allow any kind of decent run AND throttling. This time I went with 20% ether and 80% Biodiesel. NO oil at all.

The engine ran and throttled well enough. At one point I filled the tank and just let it run to see if it would self destruct. At the 12 minute mark, there was no change in tone with no indication of distress.

However, the pinch at TDC is about half of what it was. Surprisingly, the brass bushed rod did not suffer as much as might be expected. From zero slop, I now have just a bit. I've seen slop develop in a rod and that would only go so far and the rod would continue to perform with no further deterioration. This engine will continue to be run on BioDiesel mixes with the aim of trying various percentages of oil, ether and cetane booster. That Cool Power oil, as suggested by Kelly, may give us the viscosity edge we need here.

The interesting thing is that the exhaust was huge, white smoke. Or WAS it smoke? letting it blow against your hand to collect some of it showed that it would feel cool to the touch, as if it were water. In any case, at least we aren't blowing vapourized oil into the environment. Ether is expensive and in a no added oil two stroke, maybe Heptane would be the cheap ingredient that makes this idea viable.

I'll try and get a clip posted to YouTube today.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

I wasn't able to do any more with the .15 this evening. It was perfect flying weather so I did that instead. However, my comment about the exhaust being just water had me run the engine on Cool Power before I left and I discovered something interesting. My "muffler" is a long, three foot piece of Flyquiet tubing, the same diameter as the muffler. There's a single baffle and the outlet is just a can with multiple holes punched into it. What's happening is that the oil that's being expelled is collecting on the walls of the tubing and simply drips out of the end. What we see exhausting are the true products of combustion. In BOTH cases, the biodiesel and the glow fuel, the exhaust, when allowed to collect on your hand, feels cool to the touch just as though it were water evaporating. The smoke coming from the BioDiesel is heavy and white. From the glow fuel, it's not as thick and has a blue tint to it.

The idea now is to see how much actual oil is coming out of the Biodiesel exhaust as compared to the oil coming out of the glow fuel.

At the end of last year, it became clear that running an all Biodiesel mix was going to give us wear problems, at least at the rod. At the time, we had an engine that had no TDC pinch so that wasn't an issue. (We actually have a bit less power with the "tight" engine so we may just work up to better power as it loosens up).

So we embarked on dieselizing a 26cc, Tanaka gasser. The idea there is that with rings, we'll have a better chance at lots of runs before the rings wear out. Also, the rod has needle bearings on both ends. This spring, we ran it as spark ignition, glow ignition on pure glow fuel and a glow/gas blend. All went well.

However, when we tried to run it as a diesel, we ran into major problems. I could not get a start despite multiple tries over a space of several days. At one point, I decided to give it a good shot of straight ether out of the can. Works for trucks, why not? Well, pictured is the result. I got a start all right but with a great deal of bang, bang, bang. I'm using a pull starter and as you give it that yank, you're a few feet away from the engine. By the time I could get to it, it was too late. The last bang was more like a POW with some major smoke coming out the FRONT of the engine. Clearly, I trimmed away too much meat at the front. It ran fine on gas and glow and IF I had got a normal start on diesel, this may not have happened. Still, it appears to be a failure that was just waiting to happen. Diesel sure has a lot of punch.

But why wouldn't it start? The diesel conversion was done to an old engine with a lot of miles on it. The rings looked very good as did the liner. But, it appears that compression seal wasn't the best. Diesels need that a lot, compared to gas or glow. My only recourse now is to convert the new Tanaka. But I wanted to keep that one intact as a benchmark to compare in-flight performance against the diesel version. A new cylinder is nearly 150 dollars so I may have to save this part of the project till the fall when weedwhackers come on sale for 60 bucks or so.

slope-soarer

Glad to see you are still in there experimenting Andy. Pity about the damage to the engine.
You certainly kicked something off with that very first post of yours.

If nothing else it aroused my curiosity and has given me hours of happy experimenting and testing.

Weather forecasters are predicting a hot summer here in the U.K so I should get to fly the fuel mixes I experimented with last autumn [8D]

Have already flown the 15% ether mix with 25% castor oil quite a bit.... next phase is to use the 10% ether mix with a combined mineral oil/ castor oil/ modified olive oil lubricant. This has been extensively tested, I now want to fly it for quite a while to see how it goes.

Keep up the good work.