Everything Diesel Discuss R/C Diesel engines here.

Substitute for Ether

Reply
Old 07-30-2006, 12:00 AM
  #1
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Substitute for Ether

After extensive R & D, we finally have a substitute for ether. That substitute is none. No, I don't mean that there is no substitute, that means that ether is NOT essential as an ingredient in diesel fuel for model engines.

Go to http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hopeso

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Success with the 5% ether fuel led me to try a fuel containing no ether at all. This consisted of 20% castor, 80% kerosene and 2% Amsoil cetane booster. Yes, this doesn't add up but describing it this way makes it easier to visualize the percentages. Unfortunately, I didn't take note of the compression and needle setting from the 5% run but with a little persistence, the engine lit off and ran. It took maximum compression and a needle valve a half turn richer to get it going. How? I made up a PRIME mix of 50% ether, 30% kero and 20% oil.

It took 5 to 6 prime bursts until the engine's cylinder got hot enough to allow a rough run. As the cylinder warmed, the compression was backed off giving an increase in power. The needle was then turned in and the compression brought in a bit.

The result is a nice, solid run as you see. Power is on par with fuel containing ether in whatever percentages. The ONLY issue with a no ether fuel was getting the engine hot enough to run.

Also, idle and transition became a little spotty. Still, the idle held and no flame out resulted from cracking the throttle open. It appears to go rich at idle even with the airbleed screw backed off all the way. Modifications to the throttle to allow for a leaner idle will be applied.

As in all cases, a start was affected by applying three to four drops of prime into the intake. Then the starter was applied. Again, the prime was a special HIGH ether mix.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Next was an attempt to eliminate the need for a relatively special oil that might not be readily available. Fuel was 20% #50 weight motor oil, 80% kerosene and 2% Amsoil cetane booster.

In this case, the engine would NOT start even with a dozen or more prime runs. What it took to get it to keep running after a prime burst was to FIRST heat up the engine with a heat gun. That did the trick, a prime burst or three and the engine caught and kept going. The compression screw, once again, was to the max and the needle was backed off a half turn.

Power is down from the castor/Amsoil mix. Could it be that the superior lubricity of castor enhances power? Could it also be that the superior lubricity and subsequent better compression seal of castor oil made starting more easily accomplished?

Idle and transition was on par with the first, no ether fuel.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Finally, here was an attempt to get a diesel to run on ingredients you can find at your hardware store and/or your automotive outlet. No need to order the Castor or the Amsoil cetane booster. Here we had a mix of 20% #50 weight motor oil, 80% kerosene and 2% MEKP.

As with the Amsoil mix, it required the assistance of the heat gun to get a prime burst or three or four to get a run that held. Again, the compression screw needed to be backed off and the needle dialled in. In this case, with the MEKP as an ignition improver, the compression needed to be a bit tighter to get a good run. And, starting was a bit harder.

The conclusion is that Amsoil is a better ignition promoter than the MEKP. Still the latter does work well on a fuel containing the usual, substantial amount of ether.

As with the other two, no ether fuels, idle and transition was less than the best but was acceptable. Likely to be improved with some throttle modifications to allow for a leaner adjustment at idle.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Amazingly, despite all that is known about model diesel engines, this Norvel ran with NO ether in the fuel. None, whatsoever. Once running, as the engine came up to operating temperature, the engine ran well. I have no temperature gauge but subjectively, the engine seemed to run hotter than with glow or with an ether based fuel. Not so hot though, as to exhibit any overheating symptoms. In any case, the Norvels have significantly more cooling fin area than most engines. The next experiment will be to turn down the fins to see if the need to apply the heat gun and/or the tighter compression to start can be minimized or eliminated. Diesels, after all, are said to NEED heat to run and this experiment certainly seems to prove that out.

I propose a challenge to all. If you have a Norvel .15 converted to diesel, give this a try. If you have an MVVS .15 or a converted .15 whatever, and if you are adventurous, curious, and dislike paradigms, give it a try and let us know how you make out. Do use a small starter and ONLY prime into the intake. Cinch up the compression to start, with the needle out a bit. Back off the compression right away as needed. Max out the needle and observe throttling performance. If no starts can be affected with just prime runs, do apply the heat gun,,, as hot as it'll get. Give yourself the best chance by using castor and the Amsoil or, if your lucky enough to have it, real amyl nitrate.

Again, there may be something unique to a Norvel engine's metallurgy that enhances its ability to perform as a diesel. On the smaller engines, though, low ether mixes were tried with poor performance overall. The larger engines seem more tolerant to low or no ether.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Pm34980.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	60.9 KB
ID:	498897   Click image for larger version

Name:	Jh16875.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	57.9 KB
ID:	498898   Click image for larger version

Name:	Xt60073.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	57.1 KB
ID:	498899   Click image for larger version

Name:	Jo29711.jpg
Views:	51
Size:	54.3 KB
ID:	498900  
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 11:11 AM
  #2
LeeHop
 
LeeHop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Aurora, OR
Posts: 248
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Thanks for the post, Andy. For some reason I couldn't get the lines to wrap - but I got it read [8D]
For the video, try: [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY5ty49Geuw&mode=related&search=]Norvel .15 on 5% ether[/link]


Cheers - LeeHop
LeeHop is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 12:32 PM
  #3
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Thanks Lee,

That takes you to the .15 on 5% ether but that OK, just click on "hopeso" and from there, click on "view all videos".

Or, go here and click on "view all videos" http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=hopeso

One thing occured to me. Kerosene has a low flash point and even though I was still able to get the castor based fuel going without the use of a heat gun, it still took a lot of prime bursts to get it going. So what of adding another volatile of any sort with a higher flash point, like, acetone, lacquer thinner etc to rasie the cetane just enough to allow easier starts even with the automotive oil?

My trip got postponed, as I suspected, so that experiment will be carried out today. Should be interesting. I may just bring out that old Frog and give it a go at the same time with these formulas.

In retrospect, that contra/glow device just may do what we anticipated. Provide a hot spot to allow pure kero to ignite with no need for multiple primes or heat guns.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 03:20 PM
  #4
Splinter Wood
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: , ON, CHAD
Posts: 46
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Wow.. a 1 litre bottle of "Escort" brand kerosene is nearly $7 at Canadian Tire. If you look...you will see the same brand in the 9.76 L size jug for $15 dollars at CT. Quite the savings on Kereosene. Too bad Castor wasn't as available here in local stores as easily.

Clint.
Splinter Wood is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 04:10 PM
  #5
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Splinter Wood

Wow.. a 1 litre bottle of "Escort" brand kerosene is nearly $7 at Canadian Tire. If you look...you will see the same brand in the 9.76 L size jug for $15 dollars at CT. Quite the savings on Kerosene. Too bad Castor wasn't as available here in local stores as easily.

Clint.

Clint,

Exactly right, a diesel fuel with motor oil, MEKP and kerosene would be very cheap to run. Hey, even with 5% ether from JD, it still makes running diesel, especially in the larger engines, quite attractive. The issue, of course is the special head required from aftermarket.

Testing just now has yielded some interesting results. I mention upping the cetane rating with hardware store volatiles like acetone and the like. I tried this just now and even with the advantage of castor and Amsoil, it refuses to keep running on just prime runs. The heat gun is still required. I tried 20% acetone and up to 40% and still no go. Power was down and throttling went to lunch. I suspect that if I could compress a little more, I would have some luck but my device won't go any tighter. This was done to ensure that the compression disc wouldn't fall into the combustion chamber for any reason.

HOWEVER.

I also just got back from running my precious, best, dieselized, Norvel .06. The one that does 10K plus on an 8 X 4 Cox prop on ether based fuel. Results will be posted on YouTube in a bit. This small, dieselized Norvel, ALSO will run on a no ether fuel. It behaves towards the various mixes nearly exactly like the .15. Only the kero/castor/Amsoil mix will light off with just prime runs. The other mixes needed a heat gun. Will run it again, take tach readings and post the video shortly.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 05:21 PM
  #6
Motorboy
 
Motorboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bergen, NORWAY
Posts: 2,229
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Hey, you give a big hope to us who need ether and now it show we do not need ether ,and there are enough evidence of your movie while Norvel 15 are running without ether.

Jens Eirik
Motorboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 07:42 PM
  #7
SGC
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OAKEYQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,334
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,
With reguards to MEKP, if your selective when buying it , you will notice the concentration of MEKP in the solution varies quite a bit, get the higher concentration solution for best results.
I've seen it from 20-50%. also are you adding 2% by volume or are you takeing the actual MEKP content , ie if you add 2% of 50% MEKP your fuel only has 1% and so on.
Stewart
They dont sell 100% MEKP as its too unstable- it is a sensitive HIGH explosive.
SGC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 08:07 PM
  #8
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Motorboy

Hey, you give a big hope to us who need ether and now it show we do not need ether ,and there are enough evidence of your movie while Norvel 15 are running without ether.

Jens Eirik
Thanks Jens,

We may still need a BIT of ether but as shown, no ether can be made to work, at least in Norvels. For these, castor and the Amsoil seems to give that added bit of advantage towards easier starts despite the lack of ether.

The .15 on an acetone based fuel has now been loaded. Acetone was a bad idea.

What worked was running the Norvel .06 on the castor/kero mix with Amsoil cetane booster.

Both can be seen here. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hopeso
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 08:12 PM
  #9
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SGC

Andy,
With regards to MEKP, if your selective when buying it , you will notice the concentration of MEKP in the solution varies quite a bit, get the higher concentration solution for best results.
I've seen it from 20-50%. also are you adding 2% by volume or are you taking the actual MEKP content , ie if you add 2% of 50% MEKP your fuel only has 1% and so on.
Stewart
They don't sell 100% MEKP as its too unstable- it is a sensitive HIGH explosive.

Stewart,

That's extremely useful information. My MEKP says nothing about concentration so what I'll do is up the percentages progressively to see if that helps. If that IS the key, a lot of folks, including me, will be happy to be able to buy ALL the ingredients at the local nail and hammer place. Many thanks for that.

New challenge. There should be at least a few .049/06 conversions out there. Mix up some no ether fuel and give it a go. Overcompress, drops of HIGH ether prime and starter are all you need to make this work. Use castor and Amsoil or equivalent. Your settings, compression and needle should be OK from previous runs as a starting point. Keep a heat gun handy to help along, just in case. You DO want an engine with very good compression seal. And please let us know how you make out.

Next up to get the no ether treatment will be my reliable old PAW .06 and a Frog something or other.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 09:58 AM
  #10
SERCEFLYER
 
SERCEFLYER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle, WA,
Posts: 268
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,

This is some great paradigm-rattling stuff here. I can't wait to see what you come up with next.

SF
SERCEFLYER is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 11:16 AM
  #11
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Thanks Serceflyer,

Sometimes the links I provide don't work. This may help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjAK1...h=norvel%20.06

And you're right, I never met a paradigm I had any use for, like this.

http://www.rense.com/general63/vel.htm

I read the book some thirty years ago and it stuck. Not for the theories the man postulated but the reaction to it. The scientific community, instead of addressing his ideas, proceeded to attack him personally, trying to destroy him.

What's next? I've been alluding to a device in which a glow plug is installed on to a contra-piston. This will be run as glow and diesel.

As glow, it'll be interesting to see how adjusting the compression ratio on the fly, with various nitro fuels, will affect operation., needle valve settings, throttling etc.

As diesel, it'll be interesting to see if an element that, while not glowing, still might act as a hot spot to assist the no ether fuels into starting more easily and maybe under lower compression settings.

And there's more,,
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 11:30 AM
  #12
GrahamC
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ottawa, ON, CANADA
Posts: 633
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Hey Andy,

All very interesting. I saw in another thread where someone (gkamysz her: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4535240/tm.htm) was suggesting the use of automotive diesel rather than kerosene.

Picqued my curiosity. I recall reading some threads some time past on this subject and I don't recall if there was a clear yes/no advantage of automotive/truck diesel over kerosene.

However, since truck diesel has more lubricity you would need to add less castor/oil and if this truck diesel has a higher cetane number than straight kerosene then would it not work better in low to no ether fuels ?? Should work better in brews with the more usual amounts of ether as well would it not?

I am curious if you have ever tried and compared automotive diesel and kerosene ?

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada.

GrahamC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 11:50 AM
  #13
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Graham,

Thanks for the link. For no particular reason, I had assumed truck fuel was cruder, less refined etc, than camp stove fuel, the latter needing to burn very cleanly under less than ideal conditions.

So, on to a search for infromation on all the kero/diesel fuels that are available. Keeping in mind that although we would all like to use Jet A, you can't get it that easily. But you never know till you try,,, may go up to the airport today and talk to the people there.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 12:28 PM
  #14
GrahamC
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ottawa, ON, CANADA
Posts: 633
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,

Every day the FBO takes sample of the JET-A to test for water and what not. They cannot return this to the fuel store so it is disposed of. Ask them at the ESSO shack if they could save it for you. Bring a container to make it easy and tell them what you are doing with it. I can't remember the guy's name (Carl rings a bell however) that runs the FBO otherwise I would pass that on too.

I don't know if JET-A is any better than the kerosene you have using. In fact I am not sure it has higher Cetane number than auto diesel. It would be more highly refined for airplane use however and it does have an additive to prevent fungus growth. Try it and see, the proof is in the pudding as it were. And of course you have proven that what works in practice isn't always the same as what it given as common convention and shouldn't.

I think I am going to pick up a bit of truck diesel and give it a try.

Any idea's on figuring out the relative "lubricity" of fuels without actually running a bunch of engines til they destroy themselves?


cheers, Graham
GrahamC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 03:16 PM
  #15
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Graham,

Many thanks for the tips. Wow, free jet fuel,,,, what a country. According to Greg, (gkamysz) here,

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_45...tm.htm#4566488

Jet A is on par, more or less, with kerosene as far as cetane. Diesel, is higher in cetane and has better lubricity. Jet, however is more refined.

So nothing to do but TRY THEM ALL. [8D]

Low oil content is next.

AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 07:32 AM
  #16
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Latest runs on no ether fuel can be seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hopeso

The MP Jets engine was designed and manufactured in the Czech Republic and imported By Carlson Imports, one of the prime sources of diesel engines. Being a purpose built diesel from the start, it IS built very ruggedly,, far stronger than a typical glow in the .06 size. The rod is a beam and the crank is massive. Pretty much bullet proof. Mine was purchased as a glow engine and was converted to diesel and also rebuilt to take the innards of a Wasp .09. This made it an ABC glow engine that gave very good power for its weight. It didn't take long before I converted it into an .078 sized diesel.

This series of tests indicate that a no ether fuel will run and the key element is HEAT. Once up to temperature, the kerosene alone sustains combustion. We use ether only to allow the engine to start. We actually need to compensate for the ether by running at a slightly lower compression because the ether advances the ignition point. All these years we've been compromising power for easier starting. No need as ether is ONLY required as a prime.

There are some significant advantages to this discovery. First, we get more power because the percentage of the POWER ingredient, the kerosene, is optimized. Plus, theoretically, because the ether has NO lubricating qualities and likely has the opposite action, either less lube can be used or the engine is lubed more efficiently. Also, because as kero has lubricating qualities all its own, the extra used in a no ether mix adds to the lubricating qualities of the fuel.

Another advantage is fuel storage. Those in hot climates will describe many methods of storing fuel, even at the field, in icepack filled coolers. AND, as the picture illustrates, a metal can is NOT needed with a no ether fuel. A plastic jug works just fine with no ingredient loss through the plastic. The metal can at the far left is a MUST with an ether based fuel as we all know the stories about fuel going sour with a loss of ether.

But the proof is in the flying and last evening, I took out my Mini-Sport with the Norvel .074 and put in three flights with the no ether fuel. The engine started readily enough on the ether mix settings but I had to do considerable juggling of needle settings. The way this works is that with the higher compression that is necessary to run on just kerosene, you are required to turn out the main needle valve some. This drives the low end rich and that has to be adjusted. This particular .074 has one of the CS/Brodak throttles installed so that the bottom end mixture could be adjusted as needed.

So, in the end, all you need is oil, kero and a can of quickstart to make up a small batch of prime mix. As well, the John Deere product is not a necessity, any brand will do.

This opens up some new possibilities, perhaps. Will an all kero fuel be more competitive in various of events? Team racing? free-flight? Longer runs/more power on the same fuel?

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Nl28507.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	157.8 KB
ID:	500072   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sq46147.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	58.0 KB
ID:	500073  
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 09:10 AM
  #17
gcb
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Port Ewen, NY
Posts: 3,440
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,

You seem to have made a great discovery.

We have probably all discovered having to increase compression when the ether content gets low. Since kero is the power ingredient, it definitely runs hotter. I have always added ether so it will run at a lower compression setting...less stress on the parts. I'm wondering how much running at a higher compression will shorten the life of the engine. Still, considering the decrease in fuel cost, perhaps it will be justified.

You have tried ABC and AAO, I wonder if iron/steel will run OK or perhaps get thermal runaway.

I wonder if you could use a glow that has not been converted to diesel. I think you could adjust head shims to get the optimum compression setting, and you could use the glow plug with booster to heat the engine up to running temp. When you disconnect the booster, the glow plug should assume the ambient temp of the combustion chamber since there is no alcohol to sustain a catalytic reaction. The glow plug might eliminate the need for a ether prime.

Hmmm. all the possibilities!

George
gcb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 09:49 AM
  #18
SERCEFLYER
 
SERCEFLYER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle, WA,
Posts: 268
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,

Thanks again for doing all this work. So, where did you get the Amsoil cetane improver? What other brands of starter fluids work as prime? Did you ever try using a spring starter instead of an electric?

Thanks
SERCEFLYER is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 10:04 AM
  #19
gkamysz
 
gkamysz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 3,397
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy, this is great info. I am quite surprised that the team race guys haven't tried it or stumbled upon it. It might just be so far outside the box that nobody ever thought it would work. I think the starting issues might be a problem for team race where I believe there are points awarded for being the first in the air.

What about a venturi fitting that goes over the carb and has a small tank for starting fluid? A quick spray into the tank, slip it over the carb and apply the starter. Maybe a temporary filter type of device that you would soak in starting fluid and remove after it starts? For larger engines it might be best to have a small tank of starting fuel with a valve to switch to the main tank after things warm up. I think this could be done with the fueler valves but plumbed such that the engine draws fuel from outside the model until the hose is removed. Fueler valves usually cut the engine out of the loop while you have the fill line plugged in. Instead of doing as the instructions say, connect the tank line to the carb so that the engine draws fuel from the fill line outside the model when plugged in.

Head temperatures of diesels are lower than glow engines so I don't think overheating will be an issue. The temperature of the engine does have an effect on the compression setting needed though. Some of the heat of compression when the engine is cold is lost to the cylinder and head. This is why you need to increase compression to start many engines. The smaller the engine, the more of a problem this is. As the engine gets smaller the ratio of surface area to volume increases such that more heat of compression is lost to the engine components. This is also why smaller enignes need more oil in the fuel and less cooling fin area. There have been 1/2A glow CL race engines without fins at all. Once one of our diesels is up to temp the loss of compression heat is small and compression ratio is adjusted accordingly. Over cooled engines will have problems when idling and have trouble with transition. This is a complicated matter and I haven't gotten very far with my research ont his topic. It's something I'm trying to learn about in my four stroke conversions to prevent excessive change in compression ratio requirements at different throttle settings and resulting temperatures.

Lastly, some interesting reading.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2583499.pdf

Greg
gkamysz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 11:07 AM
  #20
GrahamC
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ottawa, ON, CANADA
Posts: 633
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Had a thought Andy, ever try or think of tyring to "pre-heat" the kerosene fuel. A simple coil of a couple of turns mounted inside the muffler would warm the fuel some and might aid in combustion maybe resulting in a bit lower compression; wouldn't help starting however.


Did you get you get out to the airport and inquire about the Jet-A ??

cheers, Graham
GrahamC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 12:57 PM
  #21
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether


Quote:
ORIGINAL: gcb

Andy,

You seem to have made a great discovery.

We have probably all discovered having to increase compression when the ether content gets low. Since kero is the power ingredient, it definitely runs hotter. I have always added ether so it will run at a lower compression setting...less stress on the parts. I'm wondering how much running at a higher compression will shorten the life of the engine. Still, considering the decrease in fuel cost, perhaps it will be justified.

You have tried ABC and AAO, I wonder if iron/steel will run OK or perhaps get thermal runaway.

I wonder if you could use a glow that has not been converted to diesel. I think you could adjust head shims to get the optimum compression setting, and you could use the glow plug with booster to heat the engine up to running temp. When you disconnect the booster, the glow plug should assume the ambient temp of the combustion chamber since there is no alcohol to sustain a catalytic reaction. The glow plug might eliminate the need for a ether prime.

Hmmm. all the possibilities!

George


Hi George,

Yes, there seem to be a lot of possibilities. As in working on engine design to ENHANCE its capacity to run on just kerosene. The very early diesels had primitive metallurgy, fits and finishes. To get them to run, ether was an absolute necessity. And the world proceeded from there.

So far, subjectively, it DOES appear that an all kero fuel makes the engine run hotter. Hotter, but so far, not TOO hot,,, so far. Hundreds of diesel engines to try.

I have a PAW and a Frog of some sort that will be abused today. Stay tuned.

The glow plug boost is something that I'll be trying, in due time. The device has a means to adjust compression on the fly. Two contras have been made. One with a shallow trumpet shaped combustion chamber and one that is flat simulating what you get within a standard diesel. This device will also be run on glow to see what can be learned.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 01:02 PM
  #22
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Serceflyer,

I'm remiss in not mentioning a source for Amsoil. It's amazingly simple thanks to the Internet. Just order online here.

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/Se...CategoryID=139

The beauty is that once you place your order, they ship from the location nearest you. No Hazmat problems, they shipped to me by parcel post. At 7.50 for 16 ounces and at 2%, a bottle goes a long way.

AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 01:38 PM
  #23
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Greg,

Yes, the entire essence of using ether was to get the stinky little b&%$ds to start. Back then, electric starters weren't available and who invented the first spring starter? With all the caveats, (justified) to never use a starter,, well that's what held us all back, it seems. My experience is that even with the far higher compression ratios in diesels, they respond well to starters with no more danger to the engine than if they were glow. The key is to have your adjusting elements as close as possible for that first start. In the case of glow conversions, that can be done on glow fuel.

In the case of diesels, that can be done with an ether based fuel. Here's how you can go about tuning your favourite diesel engine to run on all kero fuel. Get it all tuned up on your stock fuel. Then make a mix containing, say, 10% ether. If it won't start, up the ether a bit. See where the settings are and then take the ether content down progressively. At one point you're running with no ether. Small steps, no pain.

You still need an electric starter though. It should be sized for the job and above all else, with a starter, NEVER prime into the EXHAUST.

There is the issue that higher compression ratios are needed to run all kero fuel. At one point I'm going to test various ether content fuels and make notes of the compression screw position. Subjectively, it does not appear to be as much as one might think.

Injecting high ether content with some device could do the trick in competitive situations. Can't wait to see what the inventive brains come up with down the road.

Your comment about 1/2A glows with no fins at all is interesting. The old paradigm was that the smaller the engine, the hotter they run. And yet, small engines need more ether,,, or so we thought. Small engines really only needed more ether to get them going. Once going, all that heat was a good thing.

A thought has just occurred to me. While ether allowed easier starts, because of its volatility and colling effect, it was, in a way, working against itself. The more ether, the easier start but then, the cooler the engine ran, contributing to the need for more ether etc. etc. As you take away the cooling effect of the ether, the heat generated by combustion allowed the kero to ignite more easily. Well, at least, once the engine started.

Another point brought up by Stewart in the land down under, was port design. The Mills engines ran so well and started so easily because, as he illustrated, the fuel charge was fully atomized when injected into the combustion chamber, as opposed to big, fat droplets. Critical to diesel and maybe, on some designs, the ether helps the kero get vapourized more easily.

Much, much food for thought. This thing isn't over,, by a long shot.

And thanks for the patent link. MOST interesting reading. I've got that printed out for some light reading later on. Neat.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 01:43 PM
  #24
AndyW
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,911
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether


Quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamC

Had a thought Andy, ever try or think of tyring to "pre-heat" the kerosene fuel. A simple coil of a couple of turns mounted inside the muffler would warm the fuel some and might aid in combustion maybe resulting in a bit lower compression; wouldn't help starting however.


Did you get you get out to the airport and inquire about the Jet-A ??

cheers, Graham

Graham,

That's a great idea. Taking that a step further, how about a marine type water jacket with the fuel helping to cool the engine and at the same time getting a preheat. Where to get small diameter copper tubing locally, plumbing and heating outfits?

Called the airport too late yesterday, thanks for reminding me.
AndyW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 01:56 PM
  #25
GrahamC
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ottawa, ON, CANADA
Posts: 633
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Substitute for Ether


Quote:
ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Graham,

That's a great idea. Taking that a step further, how about a marine type water jacket with the fuel helping to cool the engine and at the same time getting a preheat. Where to get small diameter copper tubing locally, plumbing and heating outfits?

Called the airport too late yesterday, thanks for reminding me.

K&S sells small 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 diameter copper tubing. If need be I can pop some in the mail for you, the local hobby stores have it in stock.

I thought about the water jacket or maine type cooling head as well, certainly a possibility. Or do like many did many years ago before the manufacturers made the marine heads, wrap a copper tube round the head (I think Octra may have marketed one line that).

However, if you cool the engine too much with one of these heads or jackets, might that not have a detrimental effect on the idle??

cheers, Graham
GrahamC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:29 AM.