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Diesel .50s (mostly)

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Old 11-22-2009, 07:03 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Just following on from the engine test stand post, I also noticed that you use an RC clunk tank to contain the diesel fuel.>>

>>

Is there any special type of tank that it needs to be in order to tolerate diesel or is it more the tubing needs to be ‘tygon’ or the equivalent. (I am looking suspiciously at the rubber bung in mine, and wondering if the ether content of the fuel might partially liquidise it.)>>

>>

Also I am running in a new PAW 40 soon so how long in duration would the engine runs need to be?>>

>>

I intended to run it in using 25% castor oil in the fuel, a 10.5X7 prop (it will normally operate on an 11X7, so the load will be slightly less on the bench), and 3 to 4 minute consecutive runs with a complete cool down between each run.>>

>>

Thanks for your time here.>>

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Old 11-22-2009, 07:50 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

That's just a Sullivan Slant 16oz tank with Tygon tubing, I think one piece is ah, well I can't think of the name. I didn't spend much time breaking in my PAWs in, I limbered them up for about 16oz and let flying do the rest.
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:52 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Here's a link to the "constructions" as my 5 year old Grandson says.

http://www.eifflaender.com/instruct.htm
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Old 11-22-2009, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Here's a link to the "constructions" as my 5 year old Grandson says.

http://www.eifflaender.com/instruct.htm

Thanks for the “constructions” mate, I was aware of that site and the thing I find conflicting is the factory stated use of a higher pitched prop for running in as compared to normal use.>>

>>

This would load the engine higher than I would think necessary and is very old school thinking.>>

>>

Oh and I am actually using a 30% castor in the fuel and not what I incorrectly stated before.>>


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Old 11-22-2009, 10:48 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

PAWs are very old school engines, I suspect the big load it to put plenty of heat in em.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:55 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer


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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Here's a link to the ''constructions'' as my 5 year old Grandson says.

http://www.eifflaender.com/instruct.htm

Thanks for the “constructions” mate, I was aware of that site and the thing I find conflicting is the factory stated use of a higher pitched prop for running in as compared to normal use.>>

>>

This would load the engine higher than I would think necessary and is very old school thinking.>>

>>

Oh and I am actually using a 30% castor in the fuel and not what I incorrectly stated before.>>




So, if you disagree with something, then it is automatically labeled old school? Actually, it is not old school thinking at all. We old schoolers believe in giving our engines a break during break-in by using a prop with less load - not more load.


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Old 11-23-2009, 05:38 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

>>

Not sure that we disagree on anything here mate.>>

>>

I stated that I would run in with a 10.5X7 prop whereas the ‘constructions’ tell us to use an 11X8. >>

An 11X8 is more of a load than the recommended running prop of 11X7 (recommended by Tony Eifflander himself when flying control line stunt) and far more of a load than the 10.5X7 than I intend to use.>>

>>

So we both agree on giving our engines a break with less of a load – it’s only the constructions that disagree!>>

>>

I label anything ‘old school’ that was accepted as the truth in the past but now has been superseded by new knowledge. >>

>>

Do we have an accord Ed?>>

>>

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Old 11-23-2009, 09:10 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

There must be a reason they want a heavier load on it to break in, a steel piston running in a steel cylinder would not need to be babied. They ran it to 10,000 rpm at the factory so its a little late any ***** footing around with it.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:12 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

The ‘good reason’ for a heavy load as far as I can see lies in old thinking, I have spoken to many diesel flyers here in Oz and they all say the same thing – run it in with a light load to achieve those revs.

>>

This leaves me thinking that if a larger prop is recommended by the factory to run in the engine it would never reach 10 000rpm, which is 90% of its operating range for this engine anyway.>>

>>

Honestly if you had a brand new car would you drive it around in a high gear keeping the load on it or choose to keep the load light until it eventually becomes freer?>>

>>

I would assume that the key with running in is simply going through enough heat cycles to lap the parts together and keep the engine at a safe operating temperature whilst doing so.>>

>>

Loading it up from new has to be the worst way to initiate a good seal on anything, cast iron piston with steel liner or not.>>

>>

But I know that PAW have been doing their stuff for more years than I have been alive so this leads me believe that it was a good reason once upon a time and maybe the information is out of date.>>

>>

Thanks mate.>>

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Old 11-24-2009, 04:26 AM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

In my view diesel engines are different from glow engines in terms of prop size and actual "load" on the engine. On a diesel the larger prop will be less strain to the engine as the revs and compression are kept low and the actual power output is low. With a small prop the compression needs a higher setting and the revs are higher thus presenting a tougher "job" for the engine and a higher power output.

So a larger prop is actually better for running in a diesel engine. Had there been adjustable compressions on glows we might have been running them in on a larger prop too...
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:24 AM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Small props are not always recommended for break in, my Irvine .40, (glow) says to break it in on a 12x6, which I did.

PS, hey Martin, I can't find my PAW .19, did I sell it to you a while back? Thanks, Dave
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:10 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Hobbsy I do have a PAW 19 if memory serves me right I think I got in a swap for an electric ARF with a brushed 400 motor < The chap had the engine and gallon of fuel at least 5 years which was fine used it up Evidently it came from clutton he marked the box9X6 prop comp as set needle 1 1/2 Ts cold start increase compression 1/2 to 3/4 turns then revert to original setting when warmed up this it was run and set up by clutton. so much for the gab on that one -all my 40 conversions fly on 12x6 graupners or zingers martin
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

There must be a reason they want a heavier load on it to break in, a steel piston running in a steel cylinder would not need to be babied. They ran it to 10,000 rpm at the factory so its a little late any ***** footing around with it.

Actually, I would think that a soft meehanite cast iron piston running in a hardened steel liner would need babying until it work hardens.>>
>>

Isn’t that part of the need for running in anyway?>>
>>

This leaves me wondering how on earth the factory takes a very tight brand new engine running on a larger prop than normal with an oil rich fuel up to 10 000 rpm in the first place>>
>>

I doubt that I could at those engine speeds without a fully run in engine under the same load conditions and fuel.>>
>>

Perhaps they do not use a propeller at all, so can anyone confirm this?

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Old 12-04-2009, 08:06 AM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Recyc, take the colored cooling fins off one of your PAWs and you will note that the engine is not tight at all. The piston is a very precise fit but has virtually zero drag on the cylinder wall. In fact if you place the piston halfway up the cylinder it will simply turn the crank and fall back down to the bottom, back plate off too of course. Another sign of this nearly friction free engine is when a PAW stops, the prop will bounce back and forth far more times than most other engines. What does all this mean, I dunno. All I know is that I broke three of them in like thay say to, and all three turned out perfect.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:33 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

You are right on Mr. Cox
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:57 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Thanks for the info Mr. Cox and ddd. I have tended to break in iron and steel diesels with larger props only because it is easier. Jack
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:22 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Martin, when you run your Irvine .53 and the Graupner 12x7 just put er here, I'd like to about more 50 sized Diesels. Especially more Fox .50s when people buy the newly released ones.
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Old 05-16-2010, 03:52 AM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

There must be a reason they want a heavier load on it to break in, a steel piston running in a steel cylinder would not need to be babied. They ran it to 10,000 rpm at the factory so its a little late any ***** footing around with it.

Actually, I would think that a soft meehanite cast iron piston running in a hardened steel liner would need babying until it work hardens.>>
>>

Isn’t that part of the need for running in anyway?>>
>>

This leaves me wondering how on earth the factory takes a very tight brand new engine running on a larger prop than normal with an oil rich fuel up to 10 000 rpm in the first place>>
>>

I doubt that I could at those engine speeds without a fully run in engine under the same load conditions and fuel.>>
>>

Perhaps they do not use a propeller at all, so can anyone confirm this?


Eye witnesses to the initial engine running process at the PAW factory, report that it's done the old fashioned way with a prop. It may also be a much more casual process that suggested above.

Like "recycled flyer" I wouldn't put too much credence in the prop chart on the PAW web site. It may have been mangled during transcription to a HTML format. Besides it just doesn't make any sense.

From experience with PAWs I'd stick to the multiple short runs with a light load method.

In fact I bought a new piston/Cylinder from PAW last year via the local dealer for my TBR GTS2 15. The items came with the instruction from T.E. personally to run the combination in with short bursts using a small low pitched prop. The p/l had not been lapped at all. Both pieces had been ground to size. They weren't lapped because of the size of the inlet ports (They're very Big!). Apparently this is common with PAW replacement TBR p/l.

The first attempt at starting was done with a 10/4 prop simply to get it hand-started because it was the only way to get it going. It felt terrible. After a few minutes running I was able to move to a trimmed Taipan 7 x 4 for the remaining "running-in". After the dozen or so fast short runs it felt much better. It then went into the air, however it took ages for it to come good. These days it has the loverly bouncy feel of a high performance traditional diesel.

So it was worth the trouble.

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Old 05-16-2010, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

I would have to agree with this, Ialso think that most larger prop sizes with diesels are chosen more for a flywheel effect than anything else and keeping the pitch low will give enough engine speed to get the heat cycles going for the run in.
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Old 05-17-2010, 07:14 AM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

When I stated above that PAW's were "old school" engines, I did not mean that as a bad thing. After all if it were a bad thing it would never get to be old school.
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Old 11-03-2010, 08:53 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

RCF, here some .45 to .50 sized conversions to look at.
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

RCF, here some .45 to .50 sized conversions to look at.
Dave, what am I looking at here?

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Old 11-04-2010, 12:34 AM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)


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ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

RCF, here some .45 to .50 sized conversions to look at.
Dave, what am I looking at here?

Uh, I don't see anything, fellers.

The King is wearing no clothes!!! (smile)


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Old 11-04-2010, 07:33 AM
  #74
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

How about Page #1 and following.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:18 PM
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Default RE: Diesel .50s (mostly)

I must not have understood what you were referring to, Dave. My bad.


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