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Questions AE and DC

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Old 05-19-2007, 09:46 PM
  #1
modeltronics
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Default Questions AE and DC

I just got done reading Dieseldans thread about what is going on and all the lurkers. I am one of the lurkers. I read everything in here. After reading the thread I pulled out a few boxes and started looking at my diesels.

I have 2 new AE diesels the 1cc and the .1cc . These have never been run and I would love to hear some comments and history on them. Also I have a new DC
.76 cc (or .047 cu./in) Quickstart diesel.

I would love any info on fuel, props, history and just plain info. Also...I know some of these are quite old, should I use them or just save them as collector pieces.

Next I will start pulling out my ED, MVVS, PAW, CS, AM, Irvine and Super Tigre diesels to ask questions. Most of these engines are new or it has been a while since I ran them.

I want to thank all you guys for all the good info in this section of RCU.

Pete the Lurker
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Old 05-19-2007, 10:34 PM
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The AE engines were prodiced by Allen Engineering (hence the 'AE') and marketed/distributed by Irvine. The maestro behind them was Dennis Allen-the 'A' from the A-M engines of the 50's and 60's (OK I know AMs were also around in the 80's, but that was two other manufacturers and it gets confusing otherwise) The AEs were produced in 0.1cc, 0.2cc, 0.5cc 1.0cc 1.5cc and 2.5cc versions. All were of similar design. with a dense black anodised crankcase, and parallel plain aluminium fins, with a detachable front housing a la Enya, and all but the 0.1 and 0.2cc had beam mounts.
For reasons unknown they never really caught on and I suspect sales would have been disappointing. IIRC the 2.5 may have been ball raced, but all the others were plain bearing. The 2.5 may also have been available in R-C form. I had one each of the Mk1 and Mk2 0.5cc models in the late 80's early 90's-but found them disappointing in power and inferior in handling to a D-C Dart-and certainly not in the same league as a PAW 55 (though I would say a decent DC Dart leaves the PAW for dead-for handling [but of course not for power]
So the AEs remain a sport diesel range that never quite made it commercially. I have no idea how long they were made for, nor how many were made, so like the Kingshire Kingcat and Glocat 1.5s-another 'might have been'.........

DC of course is Davies-Charlton-one of the big three in UK engine production (the other two being ED and Frog) D-C goes back to the immediate postwar period ca 1946-47 when they produced-on the UK mainland the DC Wildcat and DC 350 diesels-both of which were a cut above the average in performance and quality for the time. Around 1953 they moved to the Isle of Man into much larger production premises (the Isle of Man was a tax haven which may also have had something to do with it!), and around the same took took over the production rights to the Allbon engines-which had been produced by Allbon engineering-the Allbon 2.8 sideport being dropped from production but the 0.5cc Dart and 1.5cc Javelin continuing in production 'under new management' and appearing in Mk2 versions shortly after. In 1954 the 1cc Spitfire appeared, based on the Javelin crankcase and bottom end, but detuned for beginners for easy handling, as well as the exquisite (but tricky to handle) 0.15cc Bambi. Soon followed by the Merlin 0.76 in a different crankcase design with plain liner and drop over screw-in fins-a cheaper design to produce-and this led to the dropping of the Javelin from production to be relaced by a new 1.5cc model in the form of the Sabre, using the same construction as the Merlin. Rapidly followed by a new version of the Spitfire, using as before, the Sabre bottom end. In 1956 they upgraded the 350 and called it the Manxman, and followed up in 1957 with the 2.5cc Rapier which failed to live up to its racing design promise, and was no competition to the ED Racer or Frog 2.49. Late in the 50's the short lived DC Tornado 5cc twin appeared-the flagship of the D-C range-but very expensive, and sales were not high. Soon disappeared from production. The DC Bantam glow. based on the D-C Dart, crankcase casting appeared ca 1959-60 (along with several other sport glow engines from various UK manufacturers) and was very successful, remaining in production for about 12 years until superseded by the 0.8cc DC Wasp, in 1971-which was cheaper to produce. This appeared in various forms, with and without radial tank-which conveniently matched the Cox reed valve mounting dimensions. Some were lugless and appeared as the DC Bee with gold/yellow head and black crankcase.
From the mid 60's on DC were also making the Frog engines, actual manufacture by Frog having ceased. I believe however that these were distributed by a different wholesaler to the DC engines. This explains why the frog engine range appeared with very D-C style starter springs and cams through the 70's-and also why you occassionally come across a Frog Venom 049 glow-basically a DC Wasp with a red head, 'Frog' on the crankcase instead of D-C . In the mid 80's DC appeared to fall on hard times, and the company underwent restructuring-but with deleterious effects on both production and quality control. The final gasp was 'Ewdec' and production of D-C simply dwindled away sometime in the 80's.
...........but in terms of production there must have been many hudreds of thousands of DC engines produced over a 40 year period!
So there you are -a potted history of AE (not much) and D-C (plenty)
........isn't this fun........

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Old 05-19-2007, 11:29 PM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

Thank you for all the information. WOW what history! Let me give you a little history on how I got these engines.

The 2 AM engines...Years ago when I got married we went to London for our honeymoon. I saw a hobby shop in a little city outside of London called Addlestone and had to stop in. While we were in the shop the owner told me about a show in Esher ( the Sandown show). I just had to go. This show was just like the Toledo show in the USA. It was great. I bought many kits and engines. This was long before the limits on what you could carry on a plane. We both carried on a stack of kits.

The DC.... When I was a kid flying C/L somehow I got a magazine from the UK. I wrote a hobby shop that had an ad in the magazine about some engines. I saved my money all summer and ordered some engines. I can't remember all the engines I ordered but the DC was one and I do know there was an ED racer that I still have in the order. My best guess is that was over 40 years ago. I have run the ED but have never run the DC.

Pete
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:13 AM
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I've been to Addlestone models! Visited them several times-they called themselves-'the shop with the stock' -and boy were they right-you could barely turn round in the place without knocking something off a shelf, or collecting something hanging from the ceiling. It was a MODEL SHOP-the only place comparable I've been to was T&A Hobby Lobby in Burbank, California-and that was about 4 times bigger!

I have every D-C made apart from the Wildcat 5cc and the Tornado twin-the latter come up for sale so rarely they go for astronomical prices. D-C Wildcats pop up now and then-very nice motors-handle like a Mills.

I omitted a few points in my potted history-firstly that D-C used the name 'Allbon' well into the late middle 50's-even for their own designs-so the Merlin Spitfire and Sabre which were all in house D-C designs were marketed as the 'Allbon Merlin, Allbon Spitfire,Allbon Sabre etc even though by this time the only 'Allbon' design left in the range was the 0.55cc Dart. Sometime around 1957 they dropped the Allbon tradename and simply referred to them as D-C .........
'
The 'Quickstart moniker appear around 1960 when they started fitting spring starters to the diesels-the Dart, Merlin, Spitfire, Sabre and the Bantam glow, but not the larger designs which seem to have been phased out of production (perhaps they were tooling up for the Frog range?) After a relatively short period the spring starter was supplemented by the 'cam quickstart' , with a diamond-lozenge shaped alumium cam fitted behind the prop which engaged with the loop on the free end of the spring [this eliminated the 'spring vibrating chewing up the prop' problem that beset some other spring starter equipped engines) and the system remained unchanged for the remainder of the production for the next 20 years or so.

In the late 60s D-C produced lightweight silencers for all their engines-with the exception of the Bantam, becoming the first UK manufacturer to do so (for aero engines)(-ED had produced silencers for some of their marine models) and the ED Cadet 1cc sideport was the first UK engine sold with a silencer as standard.

The other point I omitted earlier was that in the aftermath of the D-C meltdown in the 80's, the company existed for a period as Dav-Cal before the manufacturing rights and tooling passed to Ewdec.
...and that is about the sum total of my knowledge on D-C.......gone but not forgotten-and their products can be still found on most New Zealand flying fields every weekend.
My personal favourites? A good Dart (there were bad ones...........) and the Mk2 Javelin-a far far better engine than the Sabre which suceeded it. I ran all 3 of mine (Javelins) this morning-the best turns a Master 8x3 at nearly 12,000 rpm-not bad at all for 2-3/4 oz of motor! Finding one thats still in good running order, however, is another story.............

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Old 05-20-2007, 12:43 AM
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Pete and ffkiwi, Thanks for the info on British diesels. About 40 years ago in Northern Illinois there were two Hobby shops that sold imported diesels. Stanton Hobby Shop in Chicago And Hobby Hideaway in Delavan. Most of these diesels were British. Stanton had mostly 2.5 cc diesels as I remember and Hobby Hideaway specialized in small diesels for free flight. I ran three diesels today. A Drone from around 1947. A Dunham Valkyrie British form the early 1980's but looks like a late 1940's early 1950's. And last a GB from the Land Down Under. Jack
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Old 05-20-2007, 01:03 AM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

I loved Stantons Hobbies as a kid. I grew up in Rockford Illinois as a kid and a bunch of us control liners would go to Stantons in Chicago and Al's in Elmhurst. (personal note. I've not had a control line handle in my hand for years and have to fix that).

I think this is funny...we all live in different parts but have visited the same hobby shops. I have to thank Dieseldan for getting me to start this thread and putting a smile on me remembering all the shops we have been to.

PS. I see you are in Downers Grove.... I still have a t-shirt from the Hooters in Downers Grove...long ways from Texas

Pete
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Old 05-20-2007, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

If they are in good shape no reason not to run them I would guess castor based lube thus davis 1/2A or plane fuel would do fine looks like the call to arms is working for the flip and go crowd, martin
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:06 AM
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Hmm made a very short trip to electric land with my Ripmax coyote with a brushless 400 lith battery sort of a pain after my flip and fly with diesels maybe will put the motor and battert away and my grandchildren can charge and play in 20 years with it it is a pretty sturdy air frame and it will get a modification fire wall landing gear and small diesel this will be a very easy conversion it is quick and a T tail should be a fun thing to fly martin
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:25 AM
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FFKIWI WOW what a bit on info having lots of engine mainly Davis conversions and only a few overseas ones PAW, Irvine, MVVS and a few of the other guys have joined in
we may even pick up a few newly intrested guys also martin
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:59 AM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

ffkiwi has been an wealth of information!
His advise is well taken!
Rob
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Old 05-20-2007, 05:00 PM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

This is the DC
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Old 05-20-2007, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

This is the 1cc AE
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Old 05-20-2007, 06:45 PM
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Default RE: Questions AE and DC

Pete, Al's Hobby Shop in Elmhurst is still going strong. Celebrated the 60th year just yesterday. Granddaughter (Cindy) of the founder now runs the place. Her father Al ran it for many years but died a couple years back. Stanton's used to be in an old building, dingy looking and with poor lighting. Always had some British diesels back in the 1960's. I had not been at Stanton's since 1969 until a couple of years ago. Now bright lights clean but no diesels. Newer building on the same street. Jack
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Old 08-03-2015, 03:20 PM
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DC Rapier recently acquired from across the Tasman Sea.

Comments made by Chris (ffkiwi) in post # 2 are agreed. Attractive looking engine, but in 1957 it was too little, too late.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRzNLGSWGEc
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:25 PM
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The D.C made FROG engines were not as good as the originals IMHO
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Old 07-22-2017, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john mantova View Post
The D.C made FROG engines were not as good as the originals IMHO
That seems to be a commonly held view. You can 'sex' your Frog for manufacturing origin-the DC made ones have a letter preceding the serial number, the IMA made ones do not. AFAIK (based on about half a dozen examples through my hands over the years) the DC made Frog Venoms do not have a serial number-but in any case these are not true Frogs-being just a badge engineering exercise by DC. Note that 'Venom' in this context refers to the DC Wasp .8cc derivative -not the 1961 glow version of the 1.5cc Frog Viper drum valve diesel-which was also named the Frog Venom.

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