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  1. #1

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    Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I have been wanting a diesel for a long time and I think the time has come to get one. I am not too sure why except to say that I have never had one. Since most of my models are small and I like staying at 40 size and below, I have decided on a .15. There seem to be three versions that interest me. First I have a question about the descriptions.

    For this engine "15 R/C W/M Plain Bushed", what does W/M mean?

    The plain bushed costs $95 at Carlson Engine Imports. The next possibility is 15 R/C W/M Single Ball Bearing with one bearing for $105 and the most expensive is 15 R/C W/M Double Ball Bearing at $120.

    I plan to check with Dr Diesel for his price before ordering. Not that it really matters but he is closer to my home in Georgia. I see him at the huge Perry swap meet and I may just wait to buy it from him there. He really needs a webmaster and a shopping cart so we can see the prices and place our orders.

    Which would you recommend and why?

    Do most of you mix your own fuel or buy commercial fuel?

    Should I stick with glow and forget the messing with "special" fuel at all?

    Thanks in advance, Wiggy

  2. #2
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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?


    ORIGINAL: Wiggy

    For this engine ''15 R/C W/M Plain Bushed'', what does W/M mean?
    Don't know, but if you email them they answer.


    The plain bushed costs $95 at Carlson Engine Imports. The next possibility is 15 R/C W/M Single Ball Bearing with one bearing for $105 and the most expensive is 15 R/C W/M Double Ball Bearing at $120. Which would you recommend and why?
    If this where for sport and was a nitro engine I'd say go plane bushing because their bearings rust out. Being a diesel it's going to be covered in oily film so it's not going to rust so I went with a single bearing engine. If you where going racing or very high rpm application twin ball bearings might be in order.

    Do most of you mix your own fuel or buy commercial fuel?
    Buy the fuel made.

    Should I stick with glow and forget the messing with ''special'' fuel at all?
    As a practical thing stick with the nitro, but I bought my diesels because they were different. I think the only place diesels are really better, (flame suit on), is in the very small motors .060 and smaller, but I have a FP40 with a DD head I'm going to run, a .21, some .12s, different is fun.
    Rich Border AMA 77727
    Sig Kadet Brotherhood #2

  3. #3
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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I think W/M stand for "with muffler" as a muffler is included with all engines of .09ci and up.
    The plain ones are fine for a bit of traditional low rev applications, but need at least 20% castor.

    I would recommend the single ballbearing (or even twin BB) , you then get a ballbearing in the high load end which presumably is a bit more forgiving to abuse and also better for higher revs.

    As for glow compared to diesel I think diesels are nice if one is after a large prop and lower revs, like in something like a scale model. For instance the PAW 09 will happily spin a 9x4 prop while a glow would only take a 7x4 at the most, but both would give about the same amount of thrust.
    Another plus with the low revs are a lower fuel consumption, and the fact that it is virtually impossible to get a deadstick before the fuel runs out.

    The downside with diesel is to find the fuel, and some do not seem to appreciate the smell...

  4. #4

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Wiggy You also have a couple of more choices, OS10LA, OS25LA, TTgp10, Davis has heads for these. They are plain bushed engines, but for diesel they are fine,also the carbs I think are better than the PAWS, The contra in head and adjustment compression screw is also a better design and will not "stick" on adjustment. Davis of course also has the fuel, I have PAWS and the Davis conversions for both the OS
    and TTs as well as Irvines.Foxes, and STs, I find the conversions more to my liking.
    Mr cox did explain the diesel advantage bigger props lower fuel consumption,yoiu can also "time" the engine by adjusting the compression to run a variety of prop sizes martin

  5. #5

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I don't have the .15 but I have the .29 in bushing and ball bearing no difference in performance.I would guess you best bet is to go to the trade show and buy what you want from Erik Clutton. I'm sure that he will tell you what to get and how to run it.(he has the fuel too) best wishes Erik
    erik58

  6. #6

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I am going to suggest an entirely different tack here – go for the twin ball race PAW 19 as it is the same weight as the 15, spins an inch larger prop and is the same physical size.

    >>

    The ball races will enable you to flick over the engine at start up much easier and will also give you an extra 1000 rpm over the single race engine and 2500 rpm more when compared to the plain bearing job. Plus the life span of the engine should be increased.>>
    >>

    I only mix my own fuel; this is probably due to the diesel psyche of loving to fiddle around with things and tailor the mix to suit different conditions if needed. For example, running in will need more oil, smaller capacity engines need more ether, ball race engines need less oil – and this will subsequently result in more ‘fuel’ being present to give more power (hence part of the recommended ball race engine purchase.)>>
    >>

    And there is no reason to solely stick with just one type of engine ever, try them all and have fun.>>
    >>

    Cheers Mate.

  7. #7

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Hi Wiggy, get the TBR version; It weighs about the same as the other versions,
    and in the .15 size, has significantly more power than the plain bearing version,
    and has more useful power than the SBR. The SBR is a good choice, but the TBR is a
    far better $5.00 choice. I've flown several C/l models with my .15PB PAW and
    then powered the same models with a TBR version.....I sold my .15 PB soon after. [8D]

    Tony G

  8. #8

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Hi group nice to see some activity on the site and Happy New Year to all
    I am not anti-PAW have the 03, 06, 19, and 40, they are just not my favorites,
    1 st choice Davis conversions
    2nd choice in a 15 factory issue is MVVS Twin BB cylinder can be rotated right, left or rear facing before running and a really decent carb
    have 3 and do well on Davis ABC fuel martin

  9. #9

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Martin,

    I had an MVVS 28 that was set to rear exhaust on a Diamond Dust several years ago. It never "felt" fast but it seldom got outrun. You may have seen it at RCACF where I used to fly. It always ran great. Well...right up until it broke a rod. It was not worth repairing. Parts can be an issue as well. Where do you get parts for your MVVS? What muffler do you use? PAW comes with a muffler, MVVS does not, I think.

    I don't have any of the engines on the Davis list that I want to convert. My 32 Sx motors are pulling deltas around and I don't want diesel for them. I do have a couple TT 42s but I want a smaller diesel.

    Billy


  10. #10

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Billy The mufflers are 3225As (MVVS) I think the only source now is Pe Rievers in Holland, The rod issue is strange. MVVS rods are pretty hefty. The only MVVS issue I had was my 40, it threw its wire clip holding the wrist pin badly scoring the piston and liner. It was replaced
    under warranty, my guess the groove holding it was not cut deep enough on the piston martin

    Carlson engine imports is worth a shot too

  11. #11
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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    listen to the guys from down under - .19tbr[8D]
    Space Available

  12. #12

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Yep, I have to say it again, get the TBR 19 as stated above - same weight and size but more power and its the sweetest engine in the entire range.

    I have one that is 35 years old and it never fails me.

    Here is a sign for you about the bearing types, in control line combat with PAW diesels it is considered that the 19 plain bearing is just fractionally ahead of the ball race 15 in performance - so it is the bearing type giving the smaller capacity engine a boost at high rpm.

    In fact interesting reading can be found on the PAW web site here http://www.eifflaender.com/techdets.htm


    Thanks.

  13. #13

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I am listening guys. I sent a message to Carlson today to see if they have the 19 in stock along with fuel and what the shipping charges would be. They have not answered yet.

    I think someone could build a decent web site to sell diesel engines and sell a bunch. You really have to want one of these to find one and get it ordered. Dr. Diesel has a very poor web site and Calrson hasn't been updated in years.

    I still plan to call Eric (Dr Diesel) to see what he has before ordering.

    It looks like it would cost $160.00 from the factory.

    Billy

  14. #14

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Hey,

    As an old diesel user for 30 years who has about 50 or so I thought I would put in my two cents. I did not see whether you wanted a throttled engine or not. Did you say $160??? You can get a Russian MAP .15 diesel from Carlson for about 40 bucks that will kick the crap out of a PAW. I have both and have run both. If you need a carburated engine, the MVVS .15 is hard to beat. May not be in production still but there are many around. It is much more powerful than the PAW and is Schnuerle ported unlike the PAW which is a fifty some year old radial port design. The MVVS is a bit heavier though. There are many other choices but the advantage of PAW is parts availability. PAW has made the same engine design for many years and they are reliable but at $160 there are many better options. Heck, for that kind of money you could maybe find a ZOM .15 which is my personal favorite.

    As for fuel, if the components are available mix your own per manufacturers instructions. There are many posts on this subject.

    As for conversions from glow, I have a few that work well and some that don't. It's a crap shoot! I machine my own diesel heads so I have quite a few. Most of the problem is carburation.

    Good luck,
    Max

  15. #15

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    The PAW 15 diesel range isn't really radially ported, it has pretty much the same porting arangement as the Cox TD range. Their top of the range engine, the 15 GTS2 TBR (British Goodyear) PAW diesel is only slightly less powerful than a Nelson 15D. Lets get our facts right before we start arguing the merits of PAWS against obsolete Soviet era motors that are renouned for their lack of reliability. Some of the MAPS are good, most are rubbish. Even the best break often. There is no real comparison between one and a new twin ball raced PAW or some of the new European sports diesels.

    The MVVS Diesels are very good but as noted above, are out of production.

    The new Spanish Parra 15D has an r/c version.

    See: http://www.clubtamaran.com/parramotorING.htm

    Also the Russian Fora Pioneer beginners diesel is excellent quality for less than a USD100. Doesn't come with a throttle yet but one could easily be fitted.

    See: http://foraengine.narod.ru/Engine.html

    Below pics: Parra 15D on the left, Fora "Pioneer" 15D on the right. The latter is powerful (AAC p/l) yet has mild timing and could be fitted with a throttle.
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  16. #16
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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Are the Parra engines being manufactured yet or are they simply taking pre-orders?

  17. #17

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I've taken delivery of my production Iron/steel version, so I guess the answer is yes. Both of mine are strong runners.

    This is the production version. The hex headed object is the head pin removal tool. It will be available in an AAC and Glow version during 2010.
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  18. #18

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?


    ORIGINAL: locktite401

    I've taken delivery of my production Iron/steel version, so I guess the answer is yes. Both of mine are strong runners.

    This is the production version. The hex headed object is the head pin removal tool. It will be available in an AAC and Glow version during 2010.
    I've been curious about the Parra engine for some months. Have you run yours yet?
    Club Saito member #632
    Once you hear the sound of a multicylinder 4-stroke, you\'\'ll be hooked forever!

  19. #19

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Yes, I also have one of the pre-production versions as well and both run the same. The rpm's match those in Maris Distlers engine review in ACLN referenced in other threads on this forum.



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  20. #20

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I am just curious as to the engines intended use, if it’s for a fun fly sports plane then I would not go past the PAW but if its for R/C competition use then the Parra or some similar higher powered engine I believe would be better suited. But that is only if you are sticking to using a .15cu engine and this is easily bypassed by taking advantage of the huge range PAW has on offer.

    >>

    If you want to stay within the .15 physical size range then simply take the larger capacity PAW 19 and just be done with it!>>

    >>

    I also think that PAW’s forte really is in control line engines and their r/c carburettors are the Achilles heel in the design so perhaps you could release some more horse power at a later date with a carby swap if you really wanted to.>>

    >>

    I am also surprised that no one has mentioned the Enya SS15 yet! There is some talk about it in this thread http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3320403/tm.htm>>

    >>

    Cheers.>>


  21. #21

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?


    ORIGINAL: locktite401

    Some of the MAPS are good, most are rubbish. Even the best break often. There is no real comparison between one and a new twin ball raced PAW or some of the new European sports diesels.
    Agreed.

    I have a couple of MARZes. They are nice engines, but there is no way I would even begin to compare a MARZ 2.5D with a PAW. The MARZ is rated at 0.34bhp, the same as an ordinary plain bearing PAW .15. The Marz also has definite quality problems (e.g. they have a reputation for breaking crankshafts). Mine is a relatively easy handling engine, but its performance is definitely no better than the plain bearing PAW 15 - around 11,200 RPM on a Taipan 9x4 prop. It is easily out-performed by my plain bearing PAW 19s (Bolly 9.5x6 at 9,800 - 10,000), and a PAW 19-TBR is in another class altogether (easily capable of flying planes design around classic era glow .35s like the Fox).

    Frankly, unless I needed to fit within a 2.5cc limit for competition reasons, I would always choose the PAW 19. Same weight, same mounting profile as the 15, but a more powerful engine. And you won't find a nicer handling diesel anywhere.

    cheers,
    Colin

  22. #22

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    I had a FOX .15 r/c with a Davis conversion head that ran well. It turned a black MAS 9x4 at 13,000 RPM. A sport plane with light wing loading will be fine with a PAW and a black MAS 10x5. I own both a PAW .15 and a .19; someday I will compare them.

    Francis

  23. #23

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    PAW 19 is now on order from Carlson along with a gallon of fuel. Total shipped was $160. He still has $7 shipping (soon to increase).

    Thanks for all the input. Now if I can figure out how to run one of these, I will be in great shape.

    Billy




  24. #24

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?

    Another option are Sharma (PAW clone), they do an .09 ,.15 and .19 in R/C or CL , no mufflers offered but the PAW mufflers can be made to fit. The Sharma .19 is a bit more powerfull than a PAW .19 PB , but not as powerful as a .19 TBR, but then its cheaper than both!- Carlsons has these.
    Stewart

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  25. #25

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    RE: Which PAW 15 should I buy?


    ORIGINAL: Wiggy

    PAW 19 is now on order from Carlson along with a gallon of fuel. Total shipped was $160. He still has $7 shipping (soon to increase).

    Thanks for all the input. Now if I can figure out how to run one of these, I will be in great shape.

    Billy



    Excellent>>

    The PAW 19 should be factory run before shipping and as such would have the comp screw set at the hot running position – at this point take a photo of where it sits for future reference because the first thing that idle hands will do is to move it and you will not remember where it was.>>
    >>

    Needle valve, about 2.5 turn out from closed, crank the comp screw in about 1/4 turn, choke prime twice and use a running in fuel mix of 35% castor oil, 35% Jet A1 fuel and 30% ether add to that 1.5% by volume isopropyl nitrate as a diesel ignition improver – this will lower your compression setting slightly and improve running characteristics.>>

    (Flyers may note that the quoted oil content is 5% higher than recommended by the factory – I call it insurance.)>>

    But there is no lack of help on the net with forums like these, good luck mate. I am jealous of your soon to be new engine!>>




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