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SBOT 01-07-2012 12:13 AM

choices
 
I am going to buy my first diesel. These are all new in box. Which would you buy and why. I have years of glow experience, but never ran a desiel. The choices are: CS .15, Elfin .15, MVVS .09, PAW 2.49, PAW 1.49, I am leaning toward both of the PAWS simply because I have heard of the brand, but the Elfin name sounds interesting. All are new in box and priced from $60.00-$40.00 each. I have bought engines from this person before and found him to be honest and trustworthy. He is a retired Hobby Shop owner with a large collection of engines he is selling off.

Thanks,
Oscar

qazimoto 01-07-2012 12:25 AM

RE: choices
 


ORIGINAL: SBOT

I am going to buy my first diesel. These are all new in box. Which would you buy and why. I have years of glow experience, but never ran a desiel. The choices are: CS .15, Elfin .15, MVVS .09, PAW 2.49, PAW 1.49, I am leaning toward both of the PAWS simply because I have heard of the brand, but the Elfin name sounds interesting. All are new in box and priced from $60.00-$40.00 each. I have bought engines from this person before and found him to be honest and trustworthy. He is a retired Hobby Shop owner with a large collection of engines he is selling off.

Thanks,
Oscar

Oscar,

it would be an easy choice for me!

I'd leave the CS alone, very variable quality.

The original Elfin was a quality engine, sixty years ago!
Again modern replica's are of variable quality ranging from very good to unrunable.

The MVVS 09 is a good beginners engine but a little weak on power.

Which leaves the PAWs. Good strong runners, they can take a lot of punishment and spares are available still direct from the factory.


Not much ambiguity there for me!

Ray

SBOT 01-07-2012 12:32 AM

RE: choices
 
Thank you for the information. So you would buy the PAW. The Elfin is an original.

Oscar

AMB 01-07-2012 04:34 AM

RE: choices
 
SBOT get the PAW if funds enought get the Modela MVVS 09 also a very good diesel works fine in small planes mine has lots of air time
no issues put pick up both if you can martin
If you do not want the modela 09 PM me and I will take it quite sure Fiery would also

Mr Cox 01-07-2012 05:21 AM

RE: choices
 
I would recommend the PAW engines too, very reliable and should you damage anything you can easily get new parts for them.


denoferth 01-07-2012 06:10 AM

RE: choices
 
PAW would and is my choice. I have around six new and used sizes. Their factory service is responsive and fast. Last year I bought a used PAW that had the four cylinder head screws over torqued. It felt good so I didn’t pull it apart like I usually do before running. It ran a few times before the head popped off. A quick email to PAW had the screws and gaskets to me in double quick time. Great service for their fine line of motors. MVVS also makes a fine, easy handling, engine as well.

[email protected] 01-07-2012 12:35 PM

RE: choices
 
PAW

gkamysz 01-07-2012 02:22 PM

RE: choices
 
I learned diesel with an MVVS 1.5 (.09). If it has a throttle and muffler they are hard to find. I remember it tuned well even with an Enya carb fitted and a homemade exhaust. I sold it when I was done with it. A few years back, I picked up another with an original carb and muffler. Bench running it did bring back memories. It has it's own character.

Either the PAW or MVVS. Spares available for the PAW is a definite plus.

Greg

AMB 01-07-2012 03:13 PM

RE: choices
 
SOBT It appears you are going to go for the PAW,( as the classic) after cutting your teeth on the this one I would consider a modern engine conversion. if you
have some glows, check the Davis site for heads, if you are lucky you may have one of them and only need the head, this covers both worlds of diesel
classic and modern regards martin

SBOT 01-07-2012 03:28 PM

RE: choices
 
The PAW it is. Thanks to everyone for the help. After the purchase I will be back for help on starting and break-in.
AMB give me a minute to drink some coffee, I work the midnight shift, and I will PM you with some info.

Thanks again,
Oscar

SBOT 01-07-2012 04:47 PM

RE: choices
 
Moot point now. Just talked to him he has sold everything but the CS.15 and the ELFIN .15 At the prices he was asking I knew they wouldn't last.

Thank you everyone,
Oscar

AMB 01-07-2012 05:19 PM

RE: choices
 
SBOT you can call Eric Clutton here in USA for PAW no web site 931-455-2256 for PAW here in USA (Tenn) cheaper shipping domestic
Davis heads [email protected] (site) phone 615-625- 3778 (Tenn) if you have a glow that he has a head for
Both can give you a lot of info over the phone and of course great printed instruction sheets from both wiith engines and heads and of
course diesel fuel from both too bad you missed on the PAW martin

Post note if Elfin are reproductions and CS is from China would not chance buying one with their spotty qualility issues
Clutton does test run the engines and sets them up

ffkiwi 01-07-2012 08:27 PM

RE: choices
 
I reiterate what's already been said. The MVVS (or Modela-depending on packaging) 09 has a good throttle and muffler-probably-in my opinion-better than either of the PAW equivalents. That being said-the Modelas I believe are out of production, so spares and support will be a dwindling resource-which is sufficient justification for going the PAW route. In the case of the Elfin, you would need to establish whether it is: a) an original
b) a Burford replica
c) a Dunham replica
d) an Argos replica
e) a Puma replica
f) a CS replica

As you can see its been a much replicated engine! All but the CS replicas are excellent, with the Burford and the Argo being the highest quality. The Dunham and the Puma-which I have, are also good, but not quite so nicely executed-ie cosmetically they are not quite as nice as the former two.

These comments assume you are referring to the radial mount earlier Elfin 249, if you are talking about the beam mount Elfin 249, AFAIK the CS is the only replica-and CS have a well deserved reputation for being variable in quality-and with variable metallurgy. That being said-there ARE good CS replicas-but you take pot luck!

If the Elfin turns out to be an original, well you are in a grey zone-nothing wrong with the originals-they were fairly rough by modern production standards-but generally ran well-better in fact than most of their contemporaries-but how much use has the engine in question had? If a lot you might well be facing additionaL refurbishment cost-such as a rebore, to get a good runner

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

gcb 01-08-2012 12:02 AM

RE: choices
 


ORIGINAL: SBOT

Moot point now. Just talked to him he has sold everything but the CS.15 and the ELFIN .15 At the prices he was asking I knew they wouldn't last.

Thank you everyone,
Oscar
Why gamble your money on a maybe with questionable results...get a new PAW. A few more initial bucks, but reliable results.

George

AMB 01-08-2012 04:42 AM

RE: choices
 
With the reproductions listed above, again the quality issues are with CS the rest are fine, this is an issue with other CS made engines'also not a good track record martin

SBOT 01-09-2012 04:19 PM

RE: choices
 
These are orginal engines. This man has been collecting engines for over 60 years. However, I am not sure what an original CS would be. I was looking at these engines instead of modern engines because they are NIB and priced at $40-$60 each. Anyway for $40 I went ahead and bought one of the CS .15, and an Elfin .15 for $60
That you everyone for all the information and help.

Oscar

greggles47 01-09-2012 07:41 PM

RE: choices
 
Good luck with them SBOT.

Before running either of them take the back plate off and rinse them out with kero. It's not unheard of for CS's to have a little swarf left inside. The Elfin? just do it on suspicion.

Regards

G

maxtenet 01-10-2012 05:31 PM

RE: choices
 
Not a fan of the PAW engines (blasphemy on this site). Go for the MVVS. It is everything a nice little diesel should be. Easy to start. Certainly as powerful as the PAW .09 if not more so and throttles very well for a diesel.

That being said, no one ever indicates whether they need a throttled diesel or not when they ask for info! This is crucial as some perfectly good non throttled diesels perform quite poorly when throttled. For example, The Engel Rebel .09 is a superb non throttled engine but is awful with a throttle. Same for the Cipolla .09. The MK .17 with an O.S. throtttle is amazing and the best of all in my experience. All depends on your application.

Max;)

Mr Cox 01-11-2012 12:18 AM

RE: choices
 
I don't think anyone has anything bad to say about the MVVS, but they are not made anymore and there are no spare parts available, so for a first dabble in diesel it would be better with something else.

The PAW engines throttle well but the carb is a little crude with the fixed airbleed. The Enya 09 carb (from the glow engine and available as a spare part) is direct drop in though on the PAW 09 and then you get an adjustable airbleed and they run much better around idle.

earlwb 01-11-2012 08:32 AM

RE: choices
 
Although the PAW engines are fine and OK, I sorta like other engines though. The MVVS or MP-Jet series are some other good examples of model diesel engines.
If you can get them, the Mills types of engines are nice, although some clones might be questionable as to whether they work or not.
Converting some glow engines to diesel is a valid choice too. You can go to Davis DieselDevelop0ment's website and peruse the engine list to see if you have something on the list already you can convert. The Cox .049 converted to diesel might be a good warm up engine to get started with too.

I have a couple of CS Engine's Elfin .09 engines and neither one works. Not even a pop out of them.
I would avoid them as a first engine to try..




AMB 01-11-2012 09:29 AM

RE: choices
 
EARLWB your advise is " on the money" for the newcomers on the site, check out his posts, he is making up a new drone 29 from a set of castings he got from Davis. he knows what he is doing and talking about.
A machinist I am not, but having many Davis conversion heads 049 to 90 simple, never any issues, Yes I have PAWs great classic engines
I have not had carb issues, remachining CS engines??, yes its been done, but why go there??
my MVVS and UK irvines again no issues
Well in conclusion ,use what works without issues its all here post after post martin

Post note I am referring to " everyday use sport engines. the specialty competition engines are an other ball game

SBOT 01-31-2013 09:14 PM

RE: choices
 
Has it been a year already. Wow; how time flies. Anyway I want to thank you all again for the advice, as I said earlier I bought the CS-15, and the Elfin-15. The Elfin is an orginal Elfin, not a reproductiuon. It runs great, starts easy, just a joy to tinker with. The CS, however, as everyone warned me; is another story. I spent hours flipping it by hand and I could only get short runs out of it. I didn't want to put on electric starter to it for fear of bending the rod. But, I finally reasoned that there is little practicle difference between an engine that will not run and an engine that will not run with a bent rod. So after a brief touch with the starter it fired right up and seems to run quite well.
Now to the reason for this post. How do I tune these engines. I have figured out how to start them. At least what seems to work. I open the NV till flipping the prop easily draws fuel to the engine, and back off the compression. Start flipping till the engine pops; then another tweak on,the "Tommy Bar?" is that what it's called? more compression, and the engine usually starts up. Using this method the Elfin starts easily, and the CS is getting better, but I don't think the CS will have a very long usefull life; as the piston leaks badly. But it does run, and pretty good. Now how do I tune the NV and compression for best preformance; and by best preformance I don't mean max RPM; just good, reasonable output. I'll probably build something like an old time 2 channel or maybe FF to put them in.
Many thanks,
Oscar

Mr Cox 01-31-2013 10:08 PM

RE: choices
 
Tuning takes some practice to learn, and you have to listen to the engine and hear how it runs. A leaner needle setting can handle (or needs) a higher compression setting. So if the engine is too lean or under compressed it misses every now and then, while if it is to rich and overcompressed it is down on revs and sounds labored.

earlwb 02-01-2013 01:04 PM

RE: choices
 
The PAW would be my first choice as a beginner and the MVVS second as a beginner. Those engines are fairly well made and would give one a good first experience and success running a model diesel engine.  The Elfin engines had many bad examples made that don't work and the CS can be similar where you have a strong risk of getting a defective engine.

AMB 02-01-2013 01:19 PM

RE: choices
 
SBOT you can get a fox 15 USA made, fox is one of the best from Davis with the original glow head and his diesel head the fox is a nice set up on the carb it is mounted on a flat
plate and c/l and r/c carbs quickly change out 2 screws, if you have a clunker you can trade it in to Fox and just get the Davis head for it
The Fox is of course made in the USA one the best out there martin
of course in the classics the PAW good choice both PAW and Fox are factory run
MVVS is a great engine however as pointed out supply of engines and parts limited I do have them the
09,15,40 AND A 60 ALL DIESELS NO ISSUES

in the wee ones MPJET 061 is back Davis Owen in Australia and I Care RC Quebec has them -fantastic engines

When you time go back in time on the posts you see all the engines, results, good and bad, fuels, props for each one, pix and videos
quite informative


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