Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Fast P-51

Reply

Old 12-18-2011, 10:24 AM
  #1  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Fast P-51

I'm in need of some power plant suggestions. The engines wont be modified or run excessive nitro.

I'm toying with building a race plane and it must be base on a World Models P-51 with the wood fuselage not glass. I want to use this plane because I know very well where and how to beef up the plane. The stock canopy and fake scoop will be in place, not Stiletto-ized. Fuel capacity at least 16 oz.
The wings will be stock other than strengthening, added inboard flaps and door ailerons (wider & shorter) further away from the wing tips than stock.

My engine & probable prop choices are:

YS 115s 14 X 14N, 14 X 13.5 or 14X13 around 9300 to 10,000.

YS 91SR-3DS two stroke heli engine with a Mac tuned pipe running an APC 11x11 15.500 rpm (proven numbers) Would like the ys 120 same in the case size heli, but for the rules........[]

K&B 1.00 ducted fan engine 11X8 ish wood prop around 20,000 on the ground. (23300 is Mach tip speed )

Suggestions guys?



freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 04:58 PM
  #2  
Roary m
Senior Member
My Feedback: (67)
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: lancaster, CA
Posts: 730
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

I would suggest the K&B; not because it's better(Iprefer the YS) but the mortality of the ship will come into play. One false move and your baby will disintegrate.
Roary m is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 06:57 PM
  #3  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Very good point since I've killed three of them. One lost the receiver, one caught a barbwire post, and the last one when some dweeb came on the same channel. All were at full speed and spectacular .
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 08:43 PM
  #4  
airraptor
My Feedback: (66)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: fairfield, CA
Posts: 4,191
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

for get the K&B. 11" prop starts to get in to excessive prop noise at 17,300 rpm. i know so because of telemetry.....

the YS 91 will be a tad slower than the FS with the exhaust sticking out in the air stream.

My choice if i was you would be the 115 on 35% with the 14x14N

The 120AX with jett muffler will spin a 14.5x14.5N at 9,200-9,300 and gave me 140-145 on the GP revolver. the WM P-51 has about the same drag if not just a slight bit more than the revo. I would think if you clean up the wheel wells and put some good retracts in it you will be very close to 140. Also I would go through the time to put flaps on. they land just fine with out them.
airraptor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2011, 10:19 PM
  #5  
still4given
 
still4given's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 1,582
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

The 115 on the 14x14N will probably be the fastest but you might need 50% to get the speed you're looking for. Make sure you get a Hyde mount. The 1.15 has a lot of vibration and will shake everything loose if you don't.

I also wouldn't bother with flaps nor would I do barn door ailerons. They tend to cause negative yaw and are more susceptible to flutter. Look at Q40 planes and you will see the ailerons in the center of the trailing edge. Less chance of flutter but still far enough out to give some authority.
still4given is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 11:11 AM
  #6  
airraptor
My Feedback: (66)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: fairfield, CA
Posts: 4,191
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

On the ailerons i would cut about 12-15" from center and about 4" from the tip. make the center part the moving aileron. glue the rest and fill in the gap.
airraptor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 02:33 PM
  #7  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,808
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

This is the type of aileron setup I use on my race planes.


Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Ge96110.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	157.5 KB
ID:	1702237  
speedracerntrixie is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2011, 08:01 PM
  #8  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

After flying and watching a lot of very good pilots, I've come to a conclusion, you can't race if if the plane can't land intact every time. When racing you don't get many go-arounds and add that to a heavy motor and a lot of pitch. If there's no head wind or and no flaps, that means you need to dead stick. If you miss judge or the wind is twitchy, kill it too soon and end up short and bend or tear up the landing gear if your lucky, if not, you nose over break off the firewall and or the rudder. Kill the engine too late you run off the end and you got the same bad things. Than some stubborn contestants glop CA all over in a mad rush between heats on a hope and a prayer that they finish before the next race. That's no fun. Sometimes it looks like 30% of the top racers fight to go again or DNF simply because of this.

Going flaps this time with power on landing guys. The ailerons will be door, not barn door...better than flimsy strip (buzz) ailerons. I've learn a few tricks to keep even torque arm types from fluttering, not that I going that way here.
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2011, 02:10 PM
  #9  
still4given
 
still4given's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 1,582
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51


ORIGINAL: freakingfast

After flying and watching a lot of very good pilots, I've come to a conclusion, you can't race if if the plane can't land intact every time. When racing you don't get many go-arounds and add that to a heavy motor and a lot of pitch. If there's no head wind or and no flaps, that means you need to dead stick. If you miss judge or the wind is twitchy, kill it too soon and end up short and bend or tear up the landing gear if your lucky, if not, you nose over break off the firewall and or the rudder. Kill the engine too late you run off the end and you got the same bad things. Than some stubborn contestants glop CA all over in a mad rush between heats on a hope and a prayer that they finish before the next race. That's no fun. Sometimes it looks like 30% of the top racers fight to go again or DNF simply because of this.

Going flaps this time with power on landing guys. The ailerons will be door, not barn door...better than flimsy strip (buzz) ailerons. I've learn a few tricks to keep even torque arm types from fluttering, not that I going that way here.

Very interested to hear how that works out for you. Please keep us posted.

Blessings, Terry
still4given is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2011, 04:27 PM
  #10  
airraptor
My Feedback: (66)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: fairfield, CA
Posts: 4,191
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51


ORIGINAL: still4given


ORIGINAL: freakingfast

After flying and watching a lot of very good pilots, I've come to a conclusion, you can't race if if the plane can't land intact every time. When racing you don't get many go-arounds and add that to a heavy motor and a lot of pitch. If there's no head wind or and no flaps, that means you need to dead stick. If you miss judge or the wind is twitchy, kill it too soon and end up short and bend or tear up the landing gear if your lucky, if not, you nose over break off the firewall and or the rudder. Kill the engine too late you run off the end and you got the same bad things. Than some stubborn contestants glop CA all over in a mad rush between heats on a hope and a prayer that they finish before the next race. That's no fun. Sometimes it looks like 30% of the top racers fight to go again or DNF simply because of this.

Going flaps this time with power on landing guys. The ailerons will be door, not barn door...better than flimsy strip (buzz) ailerons. I've learn a few tricks to keep even torque arm types from fluttering, not that I going that way here.

Very interested to hear how that works out for you. Please keep us posted.

Blessings, Terry
+1
airraptor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2011, 08:20 PM
  #11  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,808
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51


ORIGINAL: freakingfast

After flying and watching a lot of very good pilots, I've come to a conclusion, you can't race if if the plane can't land intact every time. When racing you don't get many go-arounds and add that to a heavy motor and a lot of pitch. If there's no head wind or and no flaps, that means you need to dead stick. If you miss judge or the wind is twitchy, kill it too soon and end up short and bend or tear up the landing gear if your lucky, if not, you nose over break off the firewall and or the rudder. Kill the engine too late you run off the end and you got the same bad things. Than some stubborn contestants glop CA all over in a mad rush between heats on a hope and a prayer that they finish before the next race. That's no fun. Sometimes it looks like 30% of the top racers fight to go again or DNF simply because of this.

Going flaps this time with power on landing guys. The ailerons will be door, not barn door...better than flimsy strip (buzz) ailerons. I've learn a few tricks to keep even torque arm types from fluttering, not that I going that way here.
IMO the WM Mustang with the stock wing will slow enough that landing will not be an issue. I have seen the YS 110,115,120 paired with that airframe and they land slower then I would have thought. Look up some You Tube vids under the title of Sams warbird racing.

speedracerntrixie is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 09:24 AM
  #12  
rye
Senior Member
My Feedback: (10)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: chicago, IL
Posts: 1,780
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PnJkBl0Ql8 wow does this sound cool
rye is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 10:25 AM
  #13  
r-c-guy
Senior Member
My Feedback: (37)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Hilton Head Isl, SC
Posts: 204
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Hi

We used OS 91 vrdf's to get to the 190mph area and BVM 96's to break 200. Things on the aircraft broke as we tried to get much over 204. However, the Mustang was a Stiletto.
r-c-guy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2011, 05:35 PM
  #14  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51


ORIGINAL: r-c-guy

Hi

We used OS 91 vrdf's to get to the 190mph area and BVM 96's to break 200. Things on the aircraft broke as we tried to get much over 204. However, the Mustang was a Stiletto.
What diameter and pitch props were used?
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2011, 02:35 PM
  #15  
r-c-guy
Senior Member
My Feedback: (37)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Hilton Head Isl, SC
Posts: 204
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

We used 11-8 cfiber and 10-10 cfiber props and things got real scarry when it came on the pipe.......
r-c-guy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2011, 05:43 PM
  #16  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

ORIGINAL: r-c-guy

We used 11-8 cfiber and 10-10 cfiber props and things got real scarry when it came on the pipe.......
I'll bet that 11" prop makes an unearthly sound.
Good, then I can hear my plane over the high nitro YS 115 open headers.
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 10:22 AM
  #17  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Well I'm going to do some bench testing on a K&B 100 since I all ready have the engine (and another NIB on the way) and Mac's #1399 marine muffled tuned pipe. The engine is new, so Ill beak it in with a wood 11X9 zinger cut down to 10" to help it unload and not get too hot. I've been talking to some guys and found some interesting things, It seems that the K&B is a very powerful engine but never really had optimized components for it, like fan and preset pipes which were targeted better for the OS 91.
The K&B power peaks at a lower rpm from what I'm told(if true, not a bad thing). The header/pipe is adjustable in my application so I just have to experiment to find it. For reference the OS 91 DF length is 11.8" from glow plug to mid, high point on the pipe, so I'll start at about 13" for the K&B. The other issue with the engine was connecting rods, which may be a result from following poor break-in instructions (too slow and cold) and not stressing the need for 23% oil. I do have an aftermarket titanium replacement rod it needed.

So I'll play on the bench with a half dozen cut down wood props down in the 11X8 to 10.5X 9.5 ranges with about 20k rpm airborne target in mind. Ya, I know it's a disk area vs tips speed efficiency thing. They will be thinned a bit and CA soaked. Perhaps I'll find a point where the tips fray. After I get a feel for it and If it looks like there's any potential with the K&B , Ill go ahead and get the plane.

The YS 115 and YS 91 heli have an advantage over over a DF engine that I've learned over time, and that is their resistance to dust damage. Ring engines are much more resistant to ground dust sucked up by the prop at run-up and takeoff than ABC engines. That issue cant be helped around here. A big @$$ air filter? There's room for it since the 16oz. tank is rear shift-able.
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 12:41 PM
  #18  
smoknrv4
My Feedback: (11)
 
smoknrv4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: RR#7 Aylmer, ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,285
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

This sounds interesting FF, I'll be watching this thread.
smoknrv4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 05:12 PM
  #19  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

In case anyone was wondering, "I'm dead in the water" till I get a Macs #3882 header....I ordered 3 weeks ago and it'll be at least another week I'm guessing, "He's too busy." [&o] I must have purchased $2,500 from Macs directly and indirectly over the years, loyalty doesn't count for much. I have a lot of engine and Mach.9 prop testing to do and if it takes too long to get things, I'll have sh*t can the project as I have upcoming obligations.
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:12 PM
  #20  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,808
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

He did the same thing to me, It took 3 weeks to get it andI think that was because I called on the third week and told him I was sending someone in to pick it up. It's too bad, I remember when they would bend over backwards. I guess customer service skips a generation.

On the brighter side I wish you all the luck with the project.
speedracerntrixie is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 01:35 PM
  #21  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Getting closer to running. The strait header will at least let me run it in get pipe length(s) and static test some prop shapes. The "fuse top header" will come later. The hand throttle wont cut it, K&B throttle barrels can rotate 360* so a servo will be used to control end points and an in flight mixture control and servo as well. An automatic glow driver will be used to help lower the idle speed. Sure can tell the difference between the Macs 15cc marine (BIG body) and the Macs 15cc "Aero tune" pipes.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Db86293.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	116.7 KB
ID:	1723337  
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 03:27 PM
  #22  
smoknrv4
My Feedback: (11)
 
smoknrv4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: RR#7 Aylmer, ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,285
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Can you post some video of some bench testing when you get a chance?
smoknrv4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 04:02 PM
  #23  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Sure, but not the first time out. And I'll have to twist someones arm to get the video, I have no nothing that can do it.
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 04:57 PM
  #24  
freakingfast
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mather, CA
Posts: 2,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

First off the machine.

Version 1.0 Span-wise optimized airfoil. Without going into a lot of NACA numbers, asymmetrical, symmetrical, supercritical airfoil 10.75 X 9.

Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Jh16238.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	146.5 KB
ID:	1735038  
freakingfast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 06:00 PM
  #25  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,808
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Fast P-51

Freakinfast. What would it take to get one of those props from you? I think my Macchi needs one. Have been using an APC 10X10 and would like to try something a bit more refined.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Db85507.jpg
Views:	14
Size:	157.4 KB
ID:	1735076  
speedracerntrixie is online now  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service