Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

My very first PATRIOT!

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Old 06-21-2004, 06:42 PM
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jdp8488
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Default My very first PATRIOT!

Hello there. this is my first real high speed plane. I just bought it from a guy off of here. it is the ARF version with a YS 45se, tuned pipe, retracts, futaba servos all around, and a nice whip antenna. i purchased it for $340 shipped. only thing it was missin is the rx and battery, and nose retract servo. when it arrived, the plastic wing tip on the right side was cracked, and a crack, and small hole in the plastic part of the fuse near nose wheel. all in all, i figure it was a pretty good deal. i am not use to flying high speed planes at all, and am wanting to know what i should be looking for from my first takeoff to my first landing. from what i have read, the patriot, like most jets needs a lot of speed on take off. this will be a major difference for me. i am use to flying smaller 3d type airplanes, like my razzle 60, and UCD 60, and i also have a 40 sized cap 232. which is probably my fastest plane. honestly i just want to know what i should expect, or if i should have someone show me the basics of propjets at my local field. the guy i bought it from said it is exceptionally faster then the local pylon racers, just doesnt turn as tight. he said it may fly around 130-150. this seems awful fast. i have been reading that even the DD only fly around 140. could the patriot be any faster? well. im just a .. beginner and want to know as much info as possible on this plane. thanks . justin.
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Old 06-21-2004, 08:39 PM
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Snakers
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

Congratulations on joining the "Mach 2 with hair on fire" club. Top Gun quote of course. I just maidened mine a few weeks ago and heres my tips/comments.

Take-offs - I am also running ys 45 with pipe. On a 10X8 it gets off the ground really quick. On the first flight just give it power and you'll know when its ready to fly. It'll start hopping around if you keep it on the ground long enough and then you know youre ready to fly.

Flight- You'll be impressed with how solid it feels and probably a little nervous at the speed at first. I know I was. Keep in mind it takes a pretty steep bank angle when you're going full bore to keep it from getting too far away from you going downwind.

Landing - Hope you have a long runway! It really slows down pretty well but it's so clean I have trouble getting it to slow down. Takes practice to get it right. Try switching to slightly higher rates when landing because it much less responsive at landing speed than it is at 120. You may want to practice some slow flight and stalls at altitude to get a feel for low speed handling.

Speed - My understanding from what i learned on rcu is it's really hard to hit 130mph with patriot. Doubt youll bust it either. But either way you wont be wanting more speed for quite a while.

If you have a local guy to stand with you when you maiden and you think he really does know more than you (not just thinks he does) than by all means use him.

Have Fun, Hope this helps!

Alan
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Old 06-21-2004, 09:35 PM
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jdp8488
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

Is there any difference in the kit and the ARF? I mean as far as materials. Because one thing that is really starting to tick me off is all the cheap fragile plastic around the plane. I am thinking about buying the kit so I can build it nice and lite. But is there any plastic materials in the kit other than the cowl? The wingtips on mine are cracked, and the plastic around the nose wheel is cracked, and I dont know how to fix it other than use some tape... Anyone have a kit for sale?? I guess I could always go with towers, $78 isnt a bad price at all.
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Old 06-22-2004, 09:32 AM
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Snakers
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

The kit has no cheap plastic parts. Even the cowl is shaped balsa and permanently attached. A little work involved shaping and sanding but much nicer.

Alan
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Old 06-22-2004, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

The kit is better in the long run. I had the original ARF for two years.... plastic parts got tired after a bit. I retired it last fall. I have another ARF in the box I picked up a few weeks ago. But I will probably build my wood one first.

As for landing speed...... work on technique. The plane handles well on the back side of the power curve. Get the nose up in the air on approach....about 3-4 deg...... and use the power to control your decent/altitude (as with a full scale jet). The elevator controls your airspeed. Let the nose down, and it speeds up... nose up, slows down. Takes some practice with the patriot to get the proper feel and learn where the stall points are. Try it at altitude first. My ARF landed quite nicely like this, usually with about 1/4 power on just until touchdown. Not much faster than a typical sport plane.

Saves quite a bit of wear and tear on the nose gear.
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Old 06-22-2004, 02:22 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

I have been reading a lot about the engines and pipes. What does the term "comming up on the pipe" mean? I have the tuned pipe on the plane, but haven't really noticed a change in the sound when i go from idle to full, other then the prob spooling up I guess. And I do not have a tachometer. Is this something I should invest in now that I am jumping into high speed planes where RPM's really matter?
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Old 06-22-2004, 04:24 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

I'building a patriot at the moment.
a plastic cowl would have been nice.lol

i also have a tune pipe.
where the header mounts to the engine...
the mounting flange is .40-.50 size engine, i assume
the hole for the exhust on the header is a bit smaller than the engine's.
is that normal for an air plane engine tune pipe ?

there's is also another attechment to the tip of the pipe.
i would assume another vacume chamber.
will that help..or should i leave it off?[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]
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Old 06-22-2004, 09:45 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

leftnut: I used to work in El Centro Are you asking about the tip of the header where it attaches to the pipe with a coupler?

We need pics-


I have had ARF and kit Patriots- The ARF does have a few plastic parts but you can make replacements with light ply/balsa... I actually like the finish of the ARF-
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Old 06-23-2004, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

razor,

the header (intake) it looks small to me.it's maybe 1/4 " in dia.
should i ream it out ? The header tube is around 1/2 in dia.

at the exhaust (output) end . there's like a reverse venteri thing
or an extreem angle pipe. it clamps on to the tip if the pipe.

should i mount a 12 OZ tank if i use the pipe?
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Old 06-23-2004, 11:39 AM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

jdp....

A tach is a good investment, and they are not expensive. Sometimes they are not accurate, but if you use it as a reference only, its a handy tool. Although, its not absolutely necessary you have one for most applications, if you are tuning a pipe on an engine, it is the only true way to determine peak performance.

Coming up on the pipe........ the pipe is designed to tune to a specific rpm..... determined by the distance from the piston face to the divergent (fat) part of the pipe. When operating with a pipe, as the engine increases in RPM from idle toward full throttle, there is a notable 'stage' where the rpm suddenly jumps several hunderd as the pipe tuning takes effect. This is usually just below peak rpm for the pipe.

If the pipe is set up way too long, it operates pretty much as a long muffler, with its tuned point below the peak RPM the engine will run at with that particular prop. You may never hear it stage, since it will do so about 1/2 throttle.

Set up about right, but maybe a touch on the long side by 1/4" is generally best for sport flying. The engine will stage about 3/4 power on the ground, and stay on the pipe the entire flight. Should operate smoothly, very little jump in power, excellent transition. Be sure to set the high speed needle about 500 rpm down from peak rpm. Set your low speed needle to achive seamless transition after setting the high end.

If the pipe ends up set too short, the high speed needle becomes very sensitive, and the engine will operate erratically and transition poorly, because at full throttle, it is in that 'stage' zone trying to get to the tuned rpm, and it cant get quite get there. Oddly enough, this is actually the best length for speed planes.... if you are careful enough with the needle, the engine will jump on the pipe the moment the prop unloads in the air. However, its a sacrifice of user-friendliness for a few mph of speed (Q500 and QM40 engines are set up this way).

A quick tip...... get the pipe 'about' the length appropriate for the RPM you desire, then try a range of props turning different RPMs. Start out with smaller props, and work up. When you get to a prop where the engine begins to act up and needles poorly, note the RPM. You have found the actual tune point. Then back off to a slighly smaller prop (which turns slightly higher rpm). For sport use, this is often a lot easier than trying to adjust the pipe 1/4" in either direction, and you will still get pleanty of performance.
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Old 06-24-2004, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

I am having a very difficult time trying to tune my YS 45. It seems to run its best 1 1/2 turns out. Every time I hit full throttle though, the engine seems to bog down, and if I keep it at full, it will cut off. The owners manual states start out a 3 turns out, but that seems very rich to me, and the engine doesnt even want to start up at 3 turns. I usaully run my o.s engines about 1 1/2-2 turns out, but the ys seems to heat up really quick with this. I have tried and tried to get the engine running right, and set the needle at all different positions. The engein and tuned pipe always seem to heat up really fast. I am running standard 10% omega.. And a plug, which I dont even know. I think its the stock plug. Is there a different fuel and plug set up I should use??? This is my first YS engine, and first tuned pipe. I am just a little lost. Any information would be helpful. Thanks. Justin
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Old 06-24-2004, 02:05 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

First,

Dont go by 'turns'. Go by what the engine behaves best with. The needle setting will be different for each prop and resulting RPM.

YS engines are very picky on the fuel system. make absolutely sure you do not have any air leaks. If the tank wont hold pressure for 15 min, its leaking.

What prop are you running?? you might be trying to load it too much.
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Old 06-24-2004, 02:10 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

.05

My YS-45 runs much better and smoother on 20/20 (Powermaster for ex.)

Sounds lean to me- I use an OS-8 with fine results...
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Old 06-24-2004, 04:11 PM
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Default RE: My very first PATRIOT!

Yeah, I am only running 10%.. The prop is an 11x7 zinger. The tank has NO airleaks. I was running the engine lastnight, and this morning I pressed in the nozzle to let the air out, it rushed out. So it held air in the tank all night I suppose. I may try and throw a 10x8 APC on it, and run 20/20 fuel. The reason I have the zinger on it is because the original owner said its good to start off with that prop. Less speed and all. Well, I will try and see what I can do. It should run with the setup I have on it now though.. shouldnt it? I will try some 20 percent fuel sometime. And a different prop. Thanks for the info.
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