Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Reply

Old 07-08-2004, 11:39 PM
  #1  
crewkip
Junior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Newcastle, CA
Posts: 5
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

The basic question is how would you go about making a 150 mph warbird following these rules: http://www.sacramento-rc-flyers.org/...samwbrules.pdf

The GP little toni looks like it might be able to do 150 with a YS 110 or 120SC but it was not an Unlimited class racer. There doesn’t seem like a real easy way to do this. No ARF that I know of will be able to withhold the stress of pylon racing at 150 MPH. Which brings up the question of whether or not an ARF is worth purchasing over a standard kit? The EZ Dago Red and Voodoo are great looking planes but to make them strong enough would require stripping off that beautiful covering—it would be such a shame. Yes, a WM P-51 can be made to go extremely fast, but what alternatives would be even faster? Warbird racing is big in Northern California and a WM Zero with a YS 120NC just is not doing it for me anymore.
Kip
crewkip is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2004, 08:08 AM
  #2  
daven
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,455
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

I think your going to have a tough time getting any of the available ARFs to hit 150 mph. There is simply too much drag on these bigger planes.

About the closest I've seen is a WM Mustang with a Jett .76. I don't know much about the YS engines, so they may be a better option, but I'm still not convinced.

My Kyosho Spit with a Jett .50 is lucky to hit 110 mph.
daven is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2004, 09:17 AM
  #3  
bob27s
My Feedback: (19)
 
bob27s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,576
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Going real fast with a warbird is about 50% plane, about 30% engine, and about 20% prop choice.

But going 150 mph with anything is gonna be tough.

The YS 4C engines have a lot of power, but you are going to have to REALLLLLLY work on prop selection to keep them in their happy RPM range.

Here is something for a bit of a reference. It will give you an idea of what you are trying to accomplish

http://www.jettengineering.com/hall/at6com.html

(although it appares from the rules, that an AT-6 is not eligable since it was not a fighter)

Bob
bob27s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2004, 10:28 AM
  #4  
daven
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,455
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Bob,

We have an annual Warbird race, and last year we had a guy with a Wing Manufacture AT6 kit with a Nelson q500 motor on it. If you've seen the wing kit, its very small for a 40 sized plane, and the wing is very narrow.

I'm pretty sure it was faster than 130 mph, but probably not up to 150.

This is one of the fastest "40" sized kits out there, but you have to build it and its not the friendliest taking off or landing plane. Snaps bad if your not carefull.
daven is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2004, 11:49 AM
  #5  
bob27s
My Feedback: (19)
 
bob27s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,576
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Good idea dave....

Infact I started to mention the Wing AT-6, but noted in the rules that its not eligable. Although, round cowls just tend to gather air and slow things down, with some TLC you can minimize some of that effect.

I have a Wing AT-6 in the hangar with a SJ-46 on it. Its pretty quick, although I've never had it on a gun. On the course (just goofing around) it will fly the 2.5 mile long course in the 1:25 range on the right day with the right prop. About competitive with the CAPS quickies. Your estimate is about right..... somewhere in the 125 to 130 range.

I believe my VQ P-51 flys in the 110 to 115 range, but the structure on the ship can not withstand that for long (stab visably starts to flutter). Not too bad for an inexpensive ARF though. SJ-46 on that one too, turbojett muffler in the cowl. I rarely fly level at full throttle with that bird. In fact, I run a 12x4 to intentionally slow it down.

Here is a P-51 more up to the task. SJ-50, 9x8 MA prop, turns 18K. No speed data, but the owner Paul Geders tells me he wins about 95% of the races in the St. Louis area with it. My guess is it is faster than my AT-6. I am not sure what kit it is, but I am sure I can find out if you wish.

I don't think anyone ever flew one of these at Reno... but look at this http://www.skysharkrc.com/me109e.htm
at 710 sq inches.......you can run a 90L on it. High aspect ratio wing.....fairly light weight... retract gear.........take off some of the window dressing, and I bet you can make this thing really move! I have flown two of the skyshark designs so far, and although I cant guarantee speed, I can tell you they both flew great and were very well behaved.

At least it was something that in war time kept up with the Mustangs.....definately qualifies for your fighter class!

btw...how picky are they on scale looks and dimensions ? Because, techically, you could fly a QM40 mustang ?? Kinda out of the spirit of things I guess

Bob
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Ig12830.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	121.6 KB
ID:	151987  
bob27s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 07:58 PM
  #6  
taildraggerdave
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sun Valley, CA
Posts: 960
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Great thread. This is the thread I would have posted had I not found this one. A WM .40 Dago Red and a YS110 will get you 125-130mph all day long. I had a Saito 1.20 in a WM Dago Red and could go 120-125mph. I definitely need another warbird and I need speed. It doesn't have to meet any rules or regs. We have a warbird race down here once a year (now) and the unlimited class lets you pretty much do what you want--no Nelson type engines, though. Any additional ideas would be great.
BTW, what defines Extreme Speed Prop Planes?? Anything over 100mph?
taildraggerdave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2004, 08:30 PM
  #7  
crewkip
Junior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Newcastle, CA
Posts: 5
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Where can I get/see a Wing AT-6? I do agree the skyshark kits look like they are high quality, but I would hate the put in the time to build a kit like that and proptly place in a midair rich environment such as pylon racing. I noticed some of you have suggested planes with only Jett engines. Under those rules posted wouldn't it seem like YS engines have a huge advantage and should be the better route to take for extreme speed? Bob: They do have to be somewhat sclae but since there is no scale judging it does not have to be as close to scale as possible. On the other hand I think someone would say something if I showed up with a QM40
Kip
crewkip is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2004, 08:11 AM
  #8  
bob27s
My Feedback: (19)
 
bob27s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,576
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

AT6 http://www.wingmfg.com/Pages/WingAT6.html

YS engines will work ok, they have increadible power.......but the prop is the trick. You have to keep the 4 strokes under 10K rpm, even unloaded in flight. With the correct prop selection, they are a good choice, especially for the larger aircraft.

With the 2 stroke engines, there is no RPM limit, which opens up the prop selection. They have better power-to-weight, and smaller frontal area (more easily cowled).

For racing (this is somewhat aircraft dependant) you want to keep the prop 'disk' area as small as possible. Smaller diameter, moderate pitch, higher rpm works best for a balance of straight line speed and 'turn' acceleration. Finding the correct balance is often difficult to do with a 4C engine when trying to use off-the-shelf props. When racing, the speed at which you exit the pylon turn is often more important than your maximum straight line speed.

I guess some of the suggestions for Jett engines you see comes from the fact that most of us flew under various racing rules where pressurized fuel systems, supercharging and such were not permitted, and we ran with a spec fuel. (Yes, F-1 being the exception on the fuel and fuel system). With those being allowed, I am sure the YS engines will work with the right setup.
bob27s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2004, 01:44 PM
  #9  
crewkip
Junior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (6)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Newcastle, CA
Posts: 5
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Thank you for the website. I think that’s a great looking plane. I wonder how hard the retract installation is. Do you know how much building goes into this plane?
I agree prop choice is hard with YS engines but they give you the ability to run larger diameter props for those planes with cowls the size of 5 gallon buckets.
Kip
crewkip is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2004, 08:36 PM
  #10  
r-c-guy
Senior Member
My Feedback: (37)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Hilton Head Isl, SC
Posts: 204
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

I fly a 55 inch wingspan Dago Red with carbon spars, os 65 vrdf, 15% fuel, 11x7 or 11x8 apc. It will approach 180 mph on radar

randy
r-c-guy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2004, 08:44 PM
  #11  
mr_matt
My Feedback: (10)
 
mr_matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA,
Posts: 10,343
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Here we go....
mr_matt is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2004, 07:40 AM
  #12  
bob27s
My Feedback: (19)
 
bob27s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,576
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Crew.......

It took me about 4 nights to build the plane. One evening to sheet the wings..... one for most of the fuselage structure..... one to finish out the wing.....and another night for assorted detail work. Builds very much like a Q-500 plane. Beyond that, it took me about 3 months to finish it Just got sidetracked and stuff.

The plans show a retract install-- however I don't recall what they suggested........ Mine has fixed gear, but it was build a number of years ago. If you use retracts, you will need some low-profile gear and fairly narrow wheels. The wing is not that thick.
bob27s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2004, 12:25 PM
  #13  
T34RACING
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: SAN JOSE, CA
Posts: 348
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

I have raced many years in the Warbird Racing. I have also ran numerous races at Madera and Morgan Hill. We have an Unlimited Class that is 520 sq. in minimum and a max of a 1.8 engine. Pretty much other than the it has to look like a mustang or an airplane that it represents. Because of the course layout and safety requirments, we do not have break out times. So the faster the better.

We normally run the Pt-26 or Mustangs with 91 DF engines in them. But as Sacramento states in their rules, no trainers. So you have to look at alternatives.

If you want to go fast, you have to do your homework. If you want to buy something off the shelf, you are going to be just as fast as everyone else except a few. With Sacramento, you dont have to have the fastest airplane out there. You have to fly clean and well. With all the break out times, you sometimes dont want a airplane that is a bullet, but one that is capable of barelly breaking out. Look at the pilots who are flying the airplanes. If they are on top of the poles and they are not breaking out, then maybe not a good choice of aircraft. But those who are tight and making it barely, then those are the planes you want.

As for the trainers, look around. The At-6 which is a trainer is not legal but would be a awesome aircraft due to the nice aspect ratio. But if you change the turtle deck and make it into a NA-50, you now have a race plane. A NA-50 raced at Reno using a modified AT-6. As for other aircraft, you can alter some others into different aircraft to make things legal.

As for engines, I am a 2 stroker.... But the rules do not favor 2 strokes. So if you want to go fast, you have to go small. The four strokes are good on bigger planes, but they do not do well with the small planes because of the weight. Pauls Flying Stuff made some 400 sq in fiber glass fuse mustangs. I have three of them in kit form that we were going to modify. They actually can be scaled up by playing with the wing to accomodate a 60 size motor by just adding a couple inches in the right spots. ALso Balsa Craft made some built up kits. I have a Sea Fury that I was going to put a 60 in also....it just takes a little work..

So basically it all depends on what you want. If you need help or have any questions, email me at knorred@trimtech.com. i will help you out anytime....
T34RACING is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2004, 11:11 PM
  #14  
patterndreamer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 429
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

ok let me place something unbelievable but true in front of your eyes for all controversy to break loose. I've got a .40 size mustang with a 40 in it. I've had it clocked at 100 mph straight flying 110 mph power dive. Now the guy who kindly provided me with the plane is all anxious to put a 61 into the plane. I've not done this yet but...but with the size of this plane it should go 130-140. Now here's the controversy every wednesday at my field is warbird wednesday and thos planes are pushing 190-200 with ys 110s. So this may change everything here but im just saying what i know.
patterndreamer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 12:52 AM
  #15  
T34RACING
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: SAN JOSE, CA
Posts: 348
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

i will believe it when I see it.......


what plane is the ys 110 in....oh let me guess a world models mustang?
T34RACING is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 07:48 AM
  #16  
taildraggerdave
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sun Valley, CA
Posts: 960
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

No, No,No.....I fly at the same field and the Wednesday Warbird guys are doing 120-125mph. The YS110 in a Dago Red is only going to go 120mph. I have radared many a plane with one of the jet guys radar gun and sorry, but they don't do anywhere close to what you are saying. Maybe the radar gun you are using needs a tuneup or it is set to kilometers per hour rather than miles per hour. Hope this clears the air. Dave
taildraggerdave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 09:14 AM
  #17  
T34RACING
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: SAN JOSE, CA
Posts: 348
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

THAT SOUNDS A LITTLE BETTER......
T34RACING is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 06:22 PM
  #18  
patterndreamer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 429
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

sorry then but this is like an 80s plane very aerodynamic. Very fast.
patterndreamer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 09:05 PM
  #19  
taildraggerdave
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sun Valley, CA
Posts: 960
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Have Rex get you on radar this weekend. He has a Hotspot? and usually pits more towards the north end. There is a photo of me earlier in the Sepulveda Basin thread. Look me up next time you are at the field. I'm there between 8:00 and noon...........We'll have our version of the warbird show on Sunday morning. Bring your plane out and join us. Take Care. Dave
taildraggerdave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2004, 12:26 AM
  #20  
patterndreamer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 429
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

im stuck to the hangar for a while because of the democrats. My dad is in boston to cover it for fox so i can't be there sorry.
patterndreamer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2004, 04:18 PM
  #21  
spanish lady
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: The HagueZuid Holland, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 11
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Anyone knows what to expect on this??

I own a PRAFA (like EZ) ARF mustang .40-.46 size.
Now I want to put on a WEBRA 10ccm on it.
Using retracts on both left and right side wich are driven independent by two multiplex micro BB servo`s.
I wonder what speed I will reach on this baby.

My intention was in first place to put a supertigre .50 size on it with racing muffler and all pulling a 12X6 prop.
YES I TESTED THE ENGINE, SUPERTIGRE .50 PULLING A 12X6 PROP (your read fine), this setup amazed me.
They say that it is for .40-.46 sized engines (.50-.61 4-stroke) but to me those engine seem a little light.

Anyone know`s how to help or can give me an idea about the speed when a webra is put on it.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Vt57265.jpg
Views:	14
Size:	76.3 KB
ID:	158016   Click image for larger version

Name:	Kf12309.gif
Views:	15
Size:	51.3 KB
ID:	158017  
spanish lady is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2004, 12:56 PM
  #22  
MLaCoste
My Feedback: (15)
 
MLaCoste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 1,031
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

Alright guys, you've all made good points here, but as one of the CD's for the warbird races at Red Barons I have to chime in a little........

We do have guys that fly in the Gold Class that have airframes that push 160+mph. They've been checked on a calibrated Stalker radar gun. One guy is a LHS owner that flies highly modified, and custom spitfires & mustangs, running Nelson engines. His son flies a modified Mustang with a YS 1.20, and it's been clocked over 150mph. Another guy made a plug from a GP spitfire, running it with a YS 1.10, easily in the 150'smph. I have a highly modified WM Mustang with a YS 1.20 and it's been clocked at 156mph.......

Then you have the guys that come up from Arizona (Pacini & crew).........I don't think any of these guys can fly slower than 150mph!!!!!

All of these speeds are from straight & level, just getting ready to make the turn in to pylon 1. Actual race speeds are obviously slower due to the turns, but these are still very fast planes. Many of us have to fly long courses to avoid breaking out.

BTW, due to the speed at which my Mustang flies, I was able to use it to get my turbine waiver.

Just my 2 cents.......

Regards,
Mark LaCoste
Sacramento Red Barons
MLaCoste is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2004, 02:05 PM
  #23  
bob27s
My Feedback: (19)
 
bob27s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,576
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

What sort of mods on the WM planes......... what props are you running on that YS120 ??

Bob
bob27s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2004, 02:51 PM
  #24  
MHall
Senior Member
My Feedback: (7)
 
MHall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 439
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

As the other CD for the Red Barons races I run easily in the 140 to 145mph range with my P-51. Yes that are highly modded. We clip and carbon fiber the surfaces, smooth them as much a possible and most guys run HIGH nitro! I personally run a Stock YS 120 NC on 20/20 fuel and can easily break out of the silver class. I have run in the low 1:40's in the gold class with 50/18 fuel. It comes down to how you fly the course, Low, straight and tight will always beat high, long and wild. As for the props, sorry guys you'll have to figure that out for your self. As for the top dogs at our races, one guy runs a P-47 with a highly modded YS 110, Others are running YS120SC's in Mustangs, Spits and others are running screaming 2 strokes. Pick your favorite and come have fun. [8D]
MHall is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2004, 03:58 PM
  #25  
patterndreamer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Northridge, CA
Posts: 429
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Recipe For 150 MPH Warbird?

what would be the biggest engine you could cram into a 40 size etc. plane nothing giant scale?
patterndreamer is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service