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Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

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Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Old 11-30-2003, 11:13 AM
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Oosiksmith
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Default Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

I normally post to the "jets" page but I thought some people in this forum may be interested in my latest project. I've taken a new, unbuilt Yellow Aircraft F-16A (the old kit), installed the new scale landing gear, and plan on using a pusher engine instead of a ducted fan. My set-up will be similar to the Combat Models F-16N, as I also plan on using a YS .45RE (if I can find an unused one). I think this engine set-up will be the best choice because of its integral fuel pump. Weight will be a little more than usual as the gear is heavier than standard Robarts or Springairs.

Any thoughts, recommendations, ideas? You prop-speed demons should know a few tricks to help me out.

Tim
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Old 11-30-2003, 01:21 PM
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Razor-RCU
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

How heavy you gonna be? Looks sweet that is for sure! The CBM F-16N flies very well on the YS-45 (RE)** but was easily "dented" up and hangar rash was a problem-

If you are < 8lbs. you should be ok, any more and it will be a paperweight-

Cheers,
james
Old 11-30-2003, 03:28 PM
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Oosiksmith
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Default Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

I'm guessing its going to be around ten to eleven pounds dry (when set up as a DF it comes in around 12-14 pounds). Perhaps the .45 is too small? I know some guys are putting the YS .60RE short stroke in the G&P F/A-18 pusher and allegedly are getting about 90mph with it. Should I step up to the .60 and forget the .45?
Old 11-30-2003, 04:20 PM
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Nik
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

put a tower .75 in there! Nice and quick engine! (Cheap too!)

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXUR78&P=7

-Nik
Old 11-30-2003, 09:39 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Well @ 12> 14 lbs. the YS-45 is not going to be enough-

Assuming your fuel tanks are going to be near the CG (like the CBM F-16) the difficult part is finding an engine with enough power that can deliver fuel efficiently that distance- An OS-91VRDF in a Dynamax or Ramtec fan only has about 11 lbs. of thrust so to fly a bird that heavy- you will need something big!

I am sure others will chime in-
Old 12-01-2003, 05:47 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

If it'll fit look at the new Webra 120 w/pump. Pricewise it's not too bad...around $235.00 and you can use the same set up as the 45 (with the tanks on the CG) and spin a 12-14" pusher prop if you have enough clearance.
Tom
Old 12-01-2003, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

this might be a stupid question, but why waste the airframe like that? It was designed for and works well with a ducted fan, far better than a pusher will perform for you. You will need a substantial sized engine back there as you'll be at least 12 pounds, you'll need to add nose weight to balance out, and with a bigger engine I am guessing you will eat alot of props as the F16 needs to land quite nose high to slow down well. It is a great flying bird, but I'm just wondering why you wouldn't put a fan in it rather than converting to pusher. Especially with the scale gear, it's a fair investment for a pusher jet, why not just get a combat models F16 if you don't want to go ducted fan?
Old 12-01-2003, 11:02 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Yeah, I get that question a lot. Mostly because it hasn't been done before. With the older F-16A airframe you get about a half inch less internal room and with the new gear there is no room for a DF fan shroud. Also, from what I've seen DF set-ups are just too temperamental and only yield five minutes or so of flight. A pusher will give me longer flights with less hassle and reduced risk of engine out situations.....seen too many DF jets auger due to loss of power. Anyway, as I see it, most guys will step up to turbines if the AMA geeks pull thier heads out of thier collective derrieres and time and mass production reduce turbine costs. There is still enough room in my plane to fit a turbine later on. I'm putting the plane together just as if it were a DF so if this idea flops I can pop out the new scale gear, add some SpringAirs and a fan and go fly it that way. The whole engine mount will be screwed onto a pair of rails which will distribute the thrust generated through three of the internal bulkheads; this rail mount can be easily removed by removing six bolts (no modifications to the existing internal mounts was required, other than to make room for the new gear).

As far as your other concerns, I didn't want to go with a CBM F-16N because, as Razor-RCU noted above, they are too easy to damage. Additionally, after all that finishing work they just don't look as nice up close as the old Yellow kit does (although they are impressive flyers and I still may get one just for the fun factor). I fly "real" planes and have learned at least one thing, NEVER, EVER add weight which isn't useful or cargo. I had a special larger battery made for the nose and have offset some internal components forward...this should help balance the plane (fuel tanks are mounted above the air intake forward of the CG just as in the DF set-up). As for prop strikes, if they happen they happen. Not sure if I will mount a fixed stinger in place of the arresting hook or a retractable set-up. If aft weight isn't too much of a concern after balancing I may add a mechanical retractable stinger similar to mechanical retractable landing gear. These stingers worked fine on the CBM plane.

As far as pusher performance, I've seen enough CBM F-16N video footage on this site to motivate me to try. Look at the Belgian Tiger scheme plane footage the guys in ??Taiwan?? have posted to the Jets forum and you can see amazing high speed flight, low speed-high AOA flight, and impressive turning capability. Another poster to the Jets forum made a beautiful CBM F-16N in a Thunderbirds scheme and attached a video. I think his name was ??Kelvin??--you should download his video and watch its performance. He can slow it down to a brisk walking pace just before landing and the plane only had a five foot roll-out. Impressive is all I can say.

No, I don't consider this a waste of an airframe. Just a neat project. One day I hope to get a turbine, but I think this will be a heck of a lot of fun until then.

Tim
Old 12-06-2003, 01:59 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Here ya go:

[link=http://www.gailvin.com/KelvinF16.wmv]my CBM F-16[/link]

In this video I had only flown it about 4-5 times and had a problem with the engine over heating. If you listen you can hear the engine slowing down through out the flight. That problem has since been fixed, a different prop installed and it goes even faster now.

Have fun.
Old 12-06-2003, 06:44 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Yeah, thats the one. Pretty neat.

Galvin,

Which prop, pipe and header did you go with? Your planes performs well and maybe I'll use the same set-up.

Tim
Old 03-29-2004, 07:52 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

i have the same project ...like you i have a Y/A F-16A to from DF and i wanted to Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher .
i want to talk to you about this project by email if you can.
anderson
Old 04-03-2004, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Anderson,

Send me a PM with your email and any questions. Mine is about ready for paint. I'm just trying o decide which cockpit to put in. Either buy one or build one.

Tim

ORIGINAL: aeroandy

i have the same project ...like you i have a Y/A F-16A to from DF and i wanted to Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher .
i want to talk to you about this project by email if you can.
anderson
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:54 AM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

I am planning the same setup for my RCM F-18 pusher -this plane is not suitable for ducted fan-, i need to fit an OS 91 vrdf in ac tail, and the tank will be far away on CG (around 18" from the cylinder head to cg place). I will need some sort of pump? or this engine have enough power to feed glow flawlessly?

Thanks in advance.

Javier
Old 04-29-2004, 09:46 PM
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Oosiksmith
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

I have no experience with the set-up you describe or with the engine you will use, but my research in this forum leads me to believe you would need a pump. Even if the engine can provide enough of a vacuum to draw the fuel from several feet away it could still be flooded in an extended climb or lean out during a long dive. Read what guys have to say in the posts about the combat models F-16N (similar set-up to what you are describing). They ALL recommend using a pump or getting a pumped engine because the fuel tanks are so far away. As far as F/A-18s go, I know a lot of people have had success with the G&P F/A-18 without a pump, but the tank is mounted far aft and a pump really isn't required. Good luck; let us know how it turns out.

Tim
Old 07-01-2004, 12:16 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Update??
Old 07-01-2004, 02:43 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

i think it is a cool project. i have an old CBM f16n that i am converting to a tractor(engine on the nose) like the patriot). It is going to be a standard fun beat on plane. No retracts. should fly pretty decent.
dave
Old 07-01-2004, 02:47 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

I considered putting the engine in the nose of my CBM F16 too. cant be bothered though. makes take off and landing easier in tractor set up!

any pics?
Old 07-03-2004, 09:39 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Well, here's the update. I've almost finished painting the plane and its about ready for its decals. Although the difference is subtle, I went with the four-color grey scheme. I've attached a picture of the rails I attach to the internal bulkheads to show how the engine attaches to the plane. This should distribute the thrust and stresses throughout the entire empennage. Most of the electronics, as well as the gear, are in. The plane currently weighs about eight and a half pounds; after I add the air tanks and missiles I hope to keep the total weight below nine pounds.

The last major hurdle is to craft a cockpit from scratch. I plan on order the CJM 1/9 scale painted pilot too.
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

looking good.....going to hopefully maiden my CBM F16 tomorrow.....along with my magnum.. and i'm not at all nervous[sm=surprised.gif]
Old 08-20-2004, 04:16 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

LOL. Good luck; I saw in your other posts you were going for it this weekend. Let us know how it goes and how your engine combo works out.

As for my Hawk, I recently got promoted and my son learned to crawl; net effect: Only have time to dabble on my F-16 and haven't touched teh Hawk in months.

Tim

ORIGINAL: Dave03B

looking good.....going to hopefully maiden my CBM F16 tomorrow.....along with my magnum.. and i'm not at all nervous[sm=surprised.gif]
Old 08-20-2004, 06:06 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

How is the exhaust going to get out of the plane? From the looks of it, air flow coming in the inlet duct will hit the end of the pipe, increasing exhaust backpressure and costing you performance. Also everything aft of the pipe outlet will get coated with exhaust residue and be a real pain to clean. I suggest that you consider a Byron tuned pipe, which reverses the flow and exits exhaust in the rear.

Joe
Old 08-21-2004, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

just to let you know, magnum maiden went great.....F16 didnt happen due to a worn out fuel pump which decided to give up, luckily whilst doing some taxiing runs...... so now i'm after a YS45 to power my F16.
Old 08-25-2004, 05:04 AM
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Default RE: Converted Y/A F-16A to from DF to pusher

Hello from Swizerland,

I built and fly a small F-16 from a german kit. Lenght is 1m10, , but there are a lot of similar problematics you will encounter too if you try a conversion on a Y/A airframe.

1. It is almost impossible to have an undercarriage on a pusher F-16, as you have to get it very nose high for take-off and landing. Mine is without any kind of wheels, lands well but have to get the right man to start. Dolly may also be possible on concrete runway if you got any.

2. Each gramm/ounce in the motor needs about 1.3 in the nose to balance. Total weight with a 600g motor is almost 1.5 kg! I got an OS32SX, mounted as lightweight as possible by screwing its backplatte on PCB board, then on bulkhead with 3 M4 plastic screews.

3. The propellers are only available for pusher in limited variations... I fly with a 9X6, Ducted Fan fuel giving about 22000 rpms, which means top horizontal speeds at about 100mph, and max measured at 247kmh.

4. Every variation in the engine rpms gives a big roll effect, so it is nearly impossible to trim the thing in flight. A real D/F (i got a mirage 2000 with ramtec) flies just straight until you ask something else!

I will never again make a pusher for all the above reason, and I think my necessary choices can't apply to a bigger plane as yours, and i recommend you to build a Ramtec with OS91 and JMP system 2 pipe in it, it will be a thousand times less complicated, and will perform identically. Another way now is the EDF, some bucks ok, but performance, reliability and ease of installation beats everything

Nice flight your side of the pond

Daniel Rossier, Switzerland
[email protected]

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