Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Lil Toni Engine Choice

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Old 09-05-2004, 11:05 PM
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dean320
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Default Lil Toni Engine Choice

I ordered a Lil Toni and cannot decide on an engine. What are everyones' thoughts on the best engine for the Lil Toni to get the most speed? 2 or 4 stroke? How big can you go for either. My guess is a 90 or 120 Jett would get the most speed. I would really like to hear from those with this plane on their engine as well as overall impression of the handling and characteristics of the plane, but any input is welcome and appreciated.
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Old 09-06-2004, 05:00 AM
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Harry Lagman
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Dean, I've got a Jett 90L in mine. I maidened it with its break-in prop (12x6) and with that fine pitched speed-limiting prop it had the most spectacular unload I've ever heard in a model engine. It must have gained 2-3000 rpm over static easily. Fellow modelers were scurrying for cover, cattle were stampeding and birds were silent for a minute afterwards. And vertical performance - let's say that it seemed to accelerate the same whether horizontal or vertical (OK fellas, forgive me some enthusiastic literary license here...).

I have no means of accurately determining speed yet, but I would imagine with prop optimisation (11x8 and 11x9 are on the agenda), well over 100 mph should be possible.

Because of the down/right thrust built into the model, to mount this engine (and most other two-strokes with conventional exhausts) with its stock Sport Jett muffler, you'll either have to put a spacer on the exhaust or you'll have to mount the engine with the cylinder on port side like I did.

Flying characteristics of the model are good. It has no vices and is even quite capable of basic aerobatics. It is actually pretty easy to land for a model of its type. If its like mine, with a .60 to .90 engine, the model will be a little tail heavy. A slightly heavier engine like a YS FZ 110 is another option worth considering. Guys are getting good speed with this engine too.

Good luck with yours and do file a report once you have chosen an engine and maidened her!
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Old 09-06-2004, 05:20 PM
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dean320
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Would the Jett 120 fit? If people are using YS 110s I would think the 120 Jett would fit. What kind of speeds could I expect with the Jett 120 and YS 110?
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Old 09-06-2004, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

The Jetts would of course be a great choice....but of the engines I have
in stock....I'd probably go with a YS 1.20 FZ, or an OS 1.08 FSR.

FBD.
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Old 09-06-2004, 11:25 PM
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dean320
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Will I get more speed with a YS 120 compared to a Jett 120? What speed range would these engines put this plane in? Also, I am not questioning your recommendation, but I thought a 2 stroke was preferred for speed, why the recommendation for the YS?
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Old 09-06-2004, 11:38 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

dean320....

....It depends on what you want to get out of the plane, not so much
in all out speed as the final answer. There is a degree of personal satisfaction
running the supercharged YS engines....the sound cool, they look cool....

....and they haul butt !!! The Jett .90 is an absolute screamer. However, the
operation and sound of the plane is completely different. I don't know a thing
about the Jett 1.20

FBD.
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Old 09-06-2004, 11:54 PM
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dean320
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

FBD - The personal satisfaction for me with this plane will be getting the most speed. As for the cool factor of the YS, I had a YS 63 and could not get it to run right. Now I am willing to bet the problem was user error, but it has left me a bit leary of the YS engines. My 4 strokes are Saito and I have Irvine, GMS and Jett 2 strokes. I do like the sound of 4 strokes better, but if I have do sacrifice the preferred sound of the 4 stroke for speed, I would.

I always thought you wanted the max RPMs for speed, but the rule of thumb I have heard on 4 strokes is 10k. Given the 4 can turn a bigger prop but a 2 can turn higher RPM, which is preferred for speed? This is starting to get confusing.

Thanks alot for your help.
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:07 AM
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Flyboy Dave
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

No problem, Dean....

....few would argue the hot 2-cycles are the way to go for speed.

An example....a Jett .90 turns an 11-8 prop.
A YS .90 FZ turns a 14-8 prop.

Bottom line....personal preference. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]

Dave.
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:36 AM
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AdrianM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

I tried my plane with a Magnum .91 2c (12x8) and a Saito 100 (12x12). The Saito was faster. The conventional 2c like an OS, Magnum or ASP is just not timed to wrap up like a Jett.

The Saito spun the 12x12 at 10K (30% Nitro) on the ground and noticeably unloaded in the air. It would take off well and turn into the traffic pattern but as soon as you headed down wind it would unload and the revs would stay up for the rest of the flight.

The Magnum spun the 12x8 at 11,500 on the ground (15% Nitro) and it unladed a bit in the air but that was it. I was going to try a 11x10 but a bad switch...you know the rest...[&o]

A Jett 90 with the short RPM muffler or a YS110 with a 13x13 would be the best way to go for unlimited speed.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:56 AM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Dean

You would not really want a BSE-120L in there. It is not designed for higher RPM use, and prefers BIG props (15x8 16x6 16x8) turing closer to 9000 - 10000 rpm. Tends to run more in the 4-stroke power band for 3D and aerobatics stuff, but I guess if you proped it with a 13x8 or 13x10 a Toni might move along very nicely. The 120L is not agressively pipe timed, and does not unload in the air a great deal even with the jett-stream muffler. The big-block SJ-120 might work better (that thing is a real beast), but its a bit bigger/heavier engine and bigger muffler.

The BSE-90L (or SJ-90L) is designed to unload, and loves RPM. A few folks are flying these in the Toni with APC 11x9 props and 12x8 props (after some initial flight time) , and the plane really hauls hiney. The smaller disk area of the 11" prop lets the plane really move in the air. You can also push a 12x9 once you become familiar with the engine and the needle setting proceedure and requirements. One of the customers is suppose to get me some air-data info on his Toni (eventually).

There are a few photos of a 90L installation in a Toni in the Engines forum in the Jett support section.

Bob
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:17 PM
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dean320
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

bob27s - Would the weight of the 120 be worth the extra speed it could generate? How much more could I expect with a 120 over a 90? Would the 120 fit in this plane? Also, what is the difference between a BSE and a SJ. I know what both of those terms mean, and know the SJ is the basic, versatile line, but I am not familiar with the BSE. I would like to ability to use this in other planes down the road, so if that disqualifies either one, please let me know.
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

I have a Saito 1.00 on mine and it flys great unlimited vert. and sounds real nice high speed dives. I have pics of it mounted if you want to see... Brad
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:04 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

I also have the Jett .90L and the .50. Both are superb engines. Before I read down all the posts, I was going to suggest a .90. The Jett .90 being the best choice but the Jett 1.20 is not for high rpm speed. Now I have similar planes. I have a Midget Mustang with a 1.08. It's a healthy flyer with a 14/8 prop but it's not made for high rpms.
Frankly I think a Jett .90 in the same plane would take it easy. I also have a Shoestring with a G90. I think its as fast as my Midget. My 90L is in an Ultra Sport and my .50 is in an F-20. If money is not a big deal here, your best choice for that plane would be the 90L.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:21 PM
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3D BRI
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Hello I have the little toni with the Jett 90l installed and let me say it rips I turn a 11-7 at 14200 and she screamssss look at my gallary photos thanks Bri
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Old 09-08-2004, 01:34 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Dean,

The BSE line stands for Bar Stock Engine. Those are the machined case versions. Performance wise, the BSE-90L runs a tiny bit better than the SJ-90L cast case version.... but either will work.

The 90L is more than you will ever need in the Little Toni. If you go with the 120, you have do some serious prop experiments, and probably use at least a 13" diameter prop .... that will create enough drag extra to minimize any speed gain.

If you look in the jett web site's hall of fame section, there is an AT-6 racer with a big block 120 installed. There is a good deal of information available with that photo about the application. It works well in the AT-6 turing the larger diameter prop out in front of the big cowl.

The 90L is also the same size as an OS61 or 91FX, which means it will drop in without any serious hassles (does require a special muffler extention kit we have available).

The weight is not really an issue. The BSE-120L weights about the same as the 90L. The big block 120 is about 3 oz heavier.

Down the road, the 90L will be very happy turning a bigger 13-14" prop with a simple muffler change. But in the short term, its your best Jett engine choice for this application would be the 90L.

(edit - link to the above mentioned AT-6 article http://www.jettengineering.com/hall/at6com.html )
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Old 09-08-2004, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

One other little note here for you, when you get this thing. Make sure you slop a fair amount of epoxy to the corners of the firewall-inside and out. This engine could rip right out. If you've never had a Jett and the 90L is your first, your in for a real treat.

I have seen first hand the front ends of some planes covering go into a honeycomb effect and feels like the front end will snap right off. Shoot my own engine had been shut off for about 20 seconds one time and it just started up on it's own!

Now I do not know what insides look like but on my Midget Mustang, the servo tray held the rudder and elevator servos side by side. So I hacked it up and installed three servos side by side.
rudder in the middle and made two servos, one for each elevator for better stability. Something to consider.

Also make sure that back end is solid. I would keep in touch with those other guys with those "Toni's'. Most of my speed planes I removed the framed up stabs, elevators and rudders and replaced them with solid balsa control surfaces prior to installation and recoverded too.
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Old 02-02-2005, 09:47 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

no, i do not agree! the best prop for the little toni is a 9x14
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Old 02-02-2005, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

A 9/14 on a Jet 90L? Thank you for your input.

ORIGINAL: gungalo

no, i do not agree! the best prop for the little toni is a 9x14
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Old 02-02-2005, 11:11 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

The Lil' Toni is 60 sized right?

I would use the K&B-65 Sportster for optimum performance.

If it is designed around a .90 2 cy. I would use the AWESOME OS-91FX

Unless GMS/Mecoa has a 90?
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Old 02-02-2005, 11:17 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

ORIGINAL: Razor-RCU

The Lil' Toni is 60 sized right?

I would use the AWESOME OS-91FX
Good choice, Razor......[sm=thumbup.gif]

....I'd go with the 34-26-36 for Lil' Toni myself....
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Old 02-03-2005, 10:40 AM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

ORIGINAL: Snoop Doggy Bag

A 9/14 on a Jet 90L? Thank you for your input.

ORIGINAL: gungalo

no, i do not agree! the best prop for the little toni is a 9x14
I can't begin to even design one of those.... sounds like a marine prop

Smallest I ever personally tried on the 90L was a 9.25x12 which I whittled down from an 11x12. Only ran that on the test stand though.

Attached is a photo of one of Duane Gall's "original" F1-90 pylon planes. Same size as the GP toni. Jett 90, turbojett installed. 12x8, 11x9 are good choices here. Plane originally had the jett-stream muffler. DG added the turbo more recently. Nice having a wood front end

If the 90 size pylon class ever really gets off the ground, there will surely be a lot of prop development.

Bob
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Old 02-03-2005, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

wow... just looked. APC does make a 11x14 prop. I've never seen one.

hmmmmmmmmmm.......
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Old 02-06-2005, 08:48 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Hi
I have one with an OS 91 VRDF. This was built stock except for dimpling the fuse to accomodate a tuned pipe. It flies on rails and is very fast... 11-9 apc. It turns out that the 91 is very well mannered and FAST

randy
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:39 AM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

Randy, what rpm does your OS turn? I'm thinking about putting one in a future project.
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: Lil Toni Engine Choice

It is turning in the 17.4k range static and assuming a 10% unload... that is would be 19.1 in the air. I am running 15% omega fuel with pipe pressure. I also opened up the lower cowl intake to make the internal cowl pressure better than 1 atmosphere - maybe. I wish the fuse were more streamlined... better speed

randy
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