Looking for a fast airframe
10-09-2004, 11:16 PM
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Looking for a fast airframe
Hey fellas,
I have the urge to build a small .15 to .40 size speed plane. I would prefer some sort of warbird like the AT6 or P51. The airframe does NOT have to be designed for speed as I will be making mods to it to lighten it up as much as possible and strengthening the wing. I would like for the plane to have a RACEY scale appearance. I am really at a loss here as I am mostly an aerobatic pilot. I am not going to be racing this plane, just having fun with speed. I plan on reducing the weight of the plane as much as possible and powering it with a JETT engine.
Just looking for some suggestions
I have the urge to build a small .15 to .40 size speed plane. I would prefer some sort of warbird like the AT6 or P51. The airframe does NOT have to be designed for speed as I will be making mods to it to lighten it up as much as possible and strengthening the wing. I would like for the plane to have a RACEY scale appearance. I am really at a loss here as I am mostly an aerobatic pilot. I am not going to be racing this plane, just having fun with speed. I plan on reducing the weight of the plane as much as possible and powering it with a JETT engine.
Just looking for some suggestions
10-11-2004, 10:29 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
I second Daves nomination. I test flew a wing mfg AT-6 with the Jett .46 on it last spring, and it flew VERY well 
I have a kit sitting in line near my workbench too. Nice kit. Builts like a typical foam/wood Q-500 airplane.
The HOB P-51 is a good choice too......keep it light.
Also....... look around for some of the older F-1 and QM-40 and QM-15 kits. Older Prather Toni kit, Stafford Ricky-Rat, Matney/Latsha Rivits. Sig use to make a Mustang 450 kit ... a F-1 design from back in the 1970s - flew nice. They have great lines, and make very nice sport-speed planes for an experienced pilots. Sometimes you will run across these at swap meets and such... and occationally you can find built, used airframes that are not all that difficult to convert to sport use. Matneymodels still has kits for the QM15 planes. His QM40 planes are quick, and fairly current designs.
Other options.......
Great Planes .40 size P-51. Lots can be done to make it a little lighter, and it can be modified into any one of the number of Reno P-51 aircraft. It basically has a Kaos .40 wing, which is a bit thick, but with the gear up and the plane cleaned up, it will move fairly well.
I have a kit sitting in line near my workbench too. Nice kit. Builts like a typical foam/wood Q-500 airplane.
The HOB P-51 is a good choice too......keep it light.
Also....... look around for some of the older F-1 and QM-40 and QM-15 kits. Older Prather Toni kit, Stafford Ricky-Rat, Matney/Latsha Rivits. Sig use to make a Mustang 450 kit ... a F-1 design from back in the 1970s - flew nice. They have great lines, and make very nice sport-speed planes for an experienced pilots. Sometimes you will run across these at swap meets and such... and occationally you can find built, used airframes that are not all that difficult to convert to sport use. Matneymodels still has kits for the QM15 planes. His QM40 planes are quick, and fairly current designs.
Other options.......
Great Planes .40 size P-51. Lots can be done to make it a little lighter, and it can be modified into any one of the number of Reno P-51 aircraft. It basically has a Kaos .40 wing, which is a bit thick, but with the gear up and the plane cleaned up, it will move fairly well.
10-12-2004, 10:32 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
What kind of speed can I expect to see with either the HOB p-51 or the WING MFG AT-6? I would like to have a scale looking model with max speed reaching 110 to 120. I really have no idea if this is even possible with small scale looking airplanes. DOESN"T HAVE TO BE VERY SCALE, just look scale while in the air.
10-12-2004, 12:53 PM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
I have seen the AT-6 with a .50 up front turn in the high 1:20's on the short course. Thats just a tad slower than most of the 424 sport Q-500 planes.
Without actual radar data....consider this from my racing background.
1:00 is 60 seconds on a 2 mile course, or 120 mph.
1:30 is 90 seconds on a two mile course, or 80 mph.
these are ideal numbers.
we all know that 1 minute on the short course involved 428 class Q-500 aircraft flying at 150 mph. Thats about 80% perfect, which is about right.
So figure in that 80% factor, and that speed for 1:30 is actually 100 mph.
I think the AT-6 can do a bit better than that actually. Maybe it will snow a lot this winter, and I can spend more time in my shop.. finish up that AT-6
Without actual radar data....consider this from my racing background.
1:00 is 60 seconds on a 2 mile course, or 120 mph.
1:30 is 90 seconds on a two mile course, or 80 mph.
these are ideal numbers.
we all know that 1 minute on the short course involved 428 class Q-500 aircraft flying at 150 mph. Thats about 80% perfect, which is about right.
So figure in that 80% factor, and that speed for 1:30 is actually 100 mph.
I think the AT-6 can do a bit better than that actually. Maybe it will snow a lot this winter, and I can spend more time in my shop.. finish up that AT-6
10-12-2004, 01:15 PM
#10
RE: Looking for a fast airframe
For all out speed, I'd stay away from the AT-6's due to their big cowl and the buffeting effect you tend to get when their over powered.
The P-51 is a good choice if you wanted something scale looking.
OR....why not something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW
I have one I was going to modify and power it with a .32 or .36, but time hasn't cooperated. You could always re-cover it to resemble a "warbird".
Remember though, those 15 size planes can git small in a hurry.
Gary
The P-51 is a good choice if you wanted something scale looking.
OR....why not something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW
I have one I was going to modify and power it with a .32 or .36, but time hasn't cooperated. You could always re-cover it to resemble a "warbird".
Remember though, those 15 size planes can git small in a hurry.
Gary
10-12-2004, 04:26 PM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
VERY good question....retracts? I was planning on using retracts. I figured it would take the reduction in drag to get to the speeds I am wanting.
10-12-2004, 05:04 PM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
Those speeds above were with fixed gear, NO retracts.
It is a pretty thin wing, you may want to check with Wing if there are any retracts that fit.
It is a pretty thin wing, you may want to check with Wing if there are any retracts that fit.
10-13-2004, 07:37 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
What do you guys know about the DAGO RED from CALIFORNIA SPEED PROS? Do you think this would be one of the fastest scale looking planes?
10-13-2004, 08:23 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
CSP ...... that is Lyle Larson...... the plane you noted is a QM40 racing design.
You will be hard pressed to find something a whole lot faster.
Lyle's Dago Red is a 1998 vintage QM..... there are quicker designs available now, but the Dago is still competitive and very fast) . I had two of them. Outstanding aircraft. Well behaved. Slowed down fairly well for landing when kept on weight.
As I noted in an earlier post.... any of the QM40 or F-1 designs can make well behaved, very fast speed/sport planes.
If you can pick up either all-composite composite or foam/glass Dago from Lyle or a pre-owned one.... grab it.
Lyle also use to make a nice Streaga as well... similar fuselage, shorter span wing.
Attached photo is a Larson Dago Red painted up in VooDoo colors.
Tom Scott's aircraft from back in 2000.
The plane lends itself nicely to being painted in any number of Warbird P-51 paint schemes
Lyle's Vandetta/Miss Asheley is another very good aircraft.
You will be hard pressed to find something a whole lot faster.
Lyle's Dago Red is a 1998 vintage QM..... there are quicker designs available now, but the Dago is still competitive and very fast) . I had two of them. Outstanding aircraft. Well behaved. Slowed down fairly well for landing when kept on weight.
As I noted in an earlier post.... any of the QM40 or F-1 designs can make well behaved, very fast speed/sport planes.
If you can pick up either all-composite composite or foam/glass Dago from Lyle or a pre-owned one.... grab it.
Lyle also use to make a nice Streaga as well... similar fuselage, shorter span wing.
Attached photo is a Larson Dago Red painted up in VooDoo colors.
Tom Scott's aircraft from back in 2000.
The plane lends itself nicely to being painted in any number of Warbird P-51 paint schemes
Lyle's Vandetta/Miss Asheley is another very good aircraft.
10-13-2004, 09:17 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
The Dago and Vendetta from Lyle Larson are fiberglass fuzes with composite wings. You mentioned that you wanted to lighten one up, so I assumed you meant a conventional wood/balsa/foam kit. I have a Dago and a Vendetta, my preference is the Vendetta, but the Dago has the typical Mustang type wing, where-as the Vendetta has the lear jet (swept back) Miss Ashley type wing.
I airframes are built around the Nelson or Jett Q40 engines and capable of speeds in excess of 185 mph. Not for the feint of heart, and about the fastest real plane you will find other than FAI.
Here are a couple pictures of my Dago and Second Vendetta (First Vendetta is my avatar)
I airframes are built around the Nelson or Jett Q40 engines and capable of speeds in excess of 185 mph. Not for the feint of heart, and about the fastest real plane you will find other than FAI.
Here are a couple pictures of my Dago and Second Vendetta (First Vendetta is my avatar)
10-13-2004, 10:54 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
Not easily. I would give Lyle a call and ask, I know he modified an FAI vendetta for gear.
I would be very hesitant to cut into a composite molded wing. Also, your going to have virtually no room in the fuze to mount an air tank, or even an extra servo. Space is very limited.
I would be very hesitant to cut into a composite molded wing. Also, your going to have virtually no room in the fuze to mount an air tank, or even an extra servo. Space is very limited.
10-13-2004, 05:35 PM
#20
RE: Looking for a fast airframe
Since nobody commented on my comment, I will ask this: (Bob or Dave)
Did you guys not have any kind of buffeting with the AT-6's you ran? I ran a 40 size with an OS 61 FX/Pitts and the thing was terrible at full throttle. Matter of fact, I had two At-6's (same motor) and both acted the same.
I think part of the problem was the the stubby fuse and the oversize wing span (common with these "military trainers"). Were the ones you raced modified in either one of these areas?
Flew awesome until you punched the throttle. It also jumped left when punched, and this was with a little over 2 degrees of right thrust added.
Any comments?
Gary
Did you guys not have any kind of buffeting with the AT-6's you ran? I ran a 40 size with an OS 61 FX/Pitts and the thing was terrible at full throttle. Matter of fact, I had two At-6's (same motor) and both acted the same.
I think part of the problem was the the stubby fuse and the oversize wing span (common with these "military trainers"). Were the ones you raced modified in either one of these areas?
Flew awesome until you punched the throttle. It also jumped left when punched, and this was with a little over 2 degrees of right thrust added.
Any comments?
Gary
10-13-2004, 06:00 PM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
Dave or Bob,
How exactly are the engines mounted in these QM40 planes? Backplate or beam?
Also, are the setups you can buy from Jett or Nelson just "bolt-on" affairs? I assume these planes are designed around the use of these engines, so they all have the same spinner diameter and things like that...?
I have been thinking about getting me one of these things, just for kicks (we don't have QM40 in Europe).
It looks appealing: 400$ isn't too bad for an all composite skin hinged plane, they actually look and fly like plane, no pipes to mess with... just fire up and fly... what more could I want?
Edit: Another question... how loud are these things, for instance compared to Q500...? I'm about the loudest guy at the field as it is... don't want to offend the oldies with their gliders (the ones who run the club
)
How exactly are the engines mounted in these QM40 planes? Backplate or beam?
Also, are the setups you can buy from Jett or Nelson just "bolt-on" affairs? I assume these planes are designed around the use of these engines, so they all have the same spinner diameter and things like that...?
I have been thinking about getting me one of these things, just for kicks (we don't have QM40 in Europe).
It looks appealing: 400$ isn't too bad for an all composite skin hinged plane, they actually look and fly like plane, no pipes to mess with... just fire up and fly... what more could I want?
Edit: Another question... how loud are these things, for instance compared to Q500...? I'm about the loudest guy at the field as it is... don't want to offend the oldies with their gliders (the ones who run the club
)
10-14-2004, 07:25 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
The engines are mounted on a beam, but it is an extremely tight fit. The spinner contours exactly with the shape of the fuze with only a 1/16" gap. Mounting of the firewall is very important.
They are louder than a Q500, because the engines are tuned to run at 23,000 rpm versus a Quickee at 19,500. However, for a sport plane in Europe, I would suggest running a Q500 motor on the plane. You will still get 175 MPH with that engine, and you will have a throttle barrel, rather than the Q40 with open venturi.
I can post pictures if you want.
Gary, Which AT-6 did you have? The wing kit mentioned above, is definately sport scale, and was made to go faster. The nose is not as big and round, and the wing is thinner than scale. For a .40 sized warbird, this is the fastest we've found up here. With the same engine, its a bit faster than the World Models Mustangs.
They are louder than a Q500, because the engines are tuned to run at 23,000 rpm versus a Quickee at 19,500. However, for a sport plane in Europe, I would suggest running a Q500 motor on the plane. You will still get 175 MPH with that engine, and you will have a throttle barrel, rather than the Q40 with open venturi.
I can post pictures if you want.
Gary, Which AT-6 did you have? The wing kit mentioned above, is definately sport scale, and was made to go faster. The nose is not as big and round, and the wing is thinner than scale. For a .40 sized warbird, this is the fastest we've found up here. With the same engine, its a bit faster than the World Models Mustangs.
10-14-2004, 08:33 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
Dave covered most of the questions.... beam mount.. makes service and installation easier. The very original QM40 designs were actually set up to install the Q-500 engine with the backplate mount. That went by the wayside about a year after we started with the class.
For sport use, you can stick just about any "40" you want in the nose. My old 1995 vintage Miss RJ is still flying......has an OS 40FSR up front and its current owner is having a blast. I also did a bit of test and experimenting using my Bob Wallace mustang, with a Thunder Tiger .40 in the nose (prefered 424 engine)... very nice performance.
The more current QM40 designs are geared around the Jett and Nelson engines. You can purchase either with an integral (driven backplate) spinner of the correct size, and both Dub and Dave Shadel can provide you with the correct engine mount. The engines themselves are pretty much plug-n-play. Current APC QM props make life easier too.
As Dave noted.... its probably a good idea to either go with a Q-500 engine, or simply with a SJ-46 or 50..... more user friendly, and you can throttle back if needed. The only issue may be clearance for a 9" dia prop... but I think you will be ok.
Lyle use to sell the Dago and Strega with a foam core wing option....... basic kit format. Most competitive guys ended up buying the composite wing version of the Dago. For sport use, that would be an easy/econimal approach if he still offers cores. My Strega had a foam wing... nothing wrong with that.
You will not 'need' retracts And its not worth the weight or complexity in this size model. Turns out, unless you button up the wheel wells with flush fitting doors, the Pizza cutter wheels and struts have about the same drag as a turbulent open wheel-well.
If you want all-out speed, and some P-51 looks, go with one of Lyles planes. Danny Kane also made a good P-51 qm kit, Miss Foxy Lady.
Gary.... The Wing AT-6 flys more like a Q-500 than it does an AT-6. The last one I flew had an OS .46 with one of Dubs Turbo-jett mufflers on it. Flew quite nicely..... no bad habits at all..... and was easily over 100 mph. Prop selection is pretty generous on the plane. We tried a few different sizes. Turned out with that combination, we got what appeared to be the best performance turning a 10x7 apc. I did not notice any buffetting or anything of that nature. If I had any complaint, is the plane needed to be about half a pound lighter.
Bob
For sport use, you can stick just about any "40" you want in the nose. My old 1995 vintage Miss RJ is still flying......has an OS 40FSR up front and its current owner is having a blast. I also did a bit of test and experimenting using my Bob Wallace mustang, with a Thunder Tiger .40 in the nose (prefered 424 engine)... very nice performance.
The more current QM40 designs are geared around the Jett and Nelson engines. You can purchase either with an integral (driven backplate) spinner of the correct size, and both Dub and Dave Shadel can provide you with the correct engine mount. The engines themselves are pretty much plug-n-play. Current APC QM props make life easier too.
As Dave noted.... its probably a good idea to either go with a Q-500 engine, or simply with a SJ-46 or 50..... more user friendly, and you can throttle back if needed. The only issue may be clearance for a 9" dia prop... but I think you will be ok.
Lyle use to sell the Dago and Strega with a foam core wing option....... basic kit format. Most competitive guys ended up buying the composite wing version of the Dago. For sport use, that would be an easy/econimal approach if he still offers cores. My Strega had a foam wing... nothing wrong with that.
You will not 'need' retracts
And its not worth the weight or complexity in this size model. Turns out, unless you button up the wheel wells with flush fitting doors, the Pizza cutter wheels and struts have about the same drag as a turbulent open wheel-well.If you want all-out speed, and some P-51 looks, go with one of Lyles planes. Danny Kane also made a good P-51 qm kit, Miss Foxy Lady.
Gary.... The Wing AT-6 flys more like a Q-500 than it does an AT-6. The last one I flew had an OS .46 with one of Dubs Turbo-jett mufflers on it. Flew quite nicely..... no bad habits at all..... and was easily over 100 mph. Prop selection is pretty generous on the plane. We tried a few different sizes. Turned out with that combination, we got what appeared to be the best performance turning a 10x7 apc. I did not notice any buffetting or anything of that nature. If I had any complaint, is the plane needed to be about half a pound lighter.
Bob
10-14-2004, 10:20 AM
#24
RE: Looking for a fast airframe
ORIGINAL: bob27s
You will not 'need' retracts And its not worth the weight or complexity in this size model. Turns out, unless you button up the wheel wells with flush fitting doors, the Pizza cutter wheels and struts have about the same drag as a turbulent open wheel-well.
You will not 'need' retracts
And its not worth the weight or complexity in this size model. Turns out, unless you button up the wheel wells with flush fitting doors, the Pizza cutter wheels and struts have about the same drag as a turbulent open wheel-well.I'm sure glad someone else besides Ol' FBD and myself believes this. We've been saying this for a while now, with quite a few disagreements.
Granted, there are particulars....but lets not stir that pot up here.
The "Foxy Lady" sounds interesting.....where could I see these and get more info?
Dave,
I don't recall what ARF (yeah, an ARF
) it was, but it was squirrley went you put the nitro to it. ....maybe it was Kangke? Seagull?The AT-6's have always been a favorite of mine, but I guess to have one fly like I would want, I'd have to go with a modified version.
A buddy of mine had the Hanger9, and was not impressed with it at all....in fact he got rid of it after only a couple of flights.
How are those to build? I've always been one to try to find a (personal) happy medium with looks and speed, with a lean toward a plane looking like a plane.
If they got both, I'm a happy camper! Gary
10-14-2004, 11:43 AM
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RE: Looking for a fast airframe
Here are some links to other Q40 aircraft.
Not sure if the Foxy Lady is still being produced. H&M racing use to kit one also, but they are now mainly selling the Miss Candace, you can find it here:
http://www.superminnow.com/hmracing/index.html
If you want a pretty Mid-Wing, my favorite is the Polecat. I think it is the fastest q40 currently made.
www.bigbruceracing.com
Heres a picture of a couple of Tom Scott's Polekitties.
The green one, was (past tense) mine
Just a word of caution, Q40s do fly great, but are anything but a beginner plane. If right rudder is not used on takeoff, you will snap roll and crash your plane. Landing these planes takes practice, they glide forever at dead stick (don't even try a power on landing), and the wing is so thin that they get tough to see on approach.
Not sure if the Foxy Lady is still being produced. H&M racing use to kit one also, but they are now mainly selling the Miss Candace, you can find it here:
http://www.superminnow.com/hmracing/index.html
If you want a pretty Mid-Wing, my favorite is the Polecat. I think it is the fastest q40 currently made.
www.bigbruceracing.com
Heres a picture of a couple of Tom Scott's Polekitties.
The green one, was (past tense) mine
Just a word of caution, Q40s do fly great, but are anything but a beginner plane. If right rudder is not used on takeoff, you will snap roll and crash your plane. Landing these planes takes practice, they glide forever at dead stick (don't even try a power on landing), and the wing is so thin that they get tough to see on approach.