Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

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Old 10-31-2004, 06:52 PM
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David Hill
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Default Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hi Guys ,
Well I have been working on this for a about a year and finally got it done. It started out life as a Flair Models Stinger kit I bought at Lebanon two years ago. After a lot of work and help from others I just flew it a little while ago and all I can say is YIPEEE!!!!!!! My buddy who is a state trooper put his gun on it and on the 3rd flight I hit 182 mph. The engine is a Super Tiger rear intake, side exhaust X45 that was reworked by LCS Performance. It is running a Dub Jett QM40 muffler. I ran an APC 7.8-7 prop and I used S&W 30% fuel. It was turning almost 24,800 on the ground. I painted the plane in the brightest PPG colors I could find, WORKED GREAT. You can see it a mile away

David
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Old 10-31-2004, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Wow! Great looking and performing combo... I have been reading about the X45-

24.8K... Geesh, someday maybe I can get into that--- You use composite props like CF? Where do you get this stuff?
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Old 11-01-2004, 10:16 AM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Nice job Dave.......

Is that a Stinger or a Shark ??
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Old 11-01-2004, 05:07 PM
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David Hill
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hi Bob,
Maybe it could be a Shark, I don't know. I am just going by what I was told. The guy I bought it from did not have it in a box, instructions or anything, but for $60 I could not pass it up. The wings were pre-sheeted in Obechi wood, done real nice. I glassed the center with 3 layers of 2oz and then the whole wing in 1oz. Boy is that sucker strong!!!!

The Super Tigre X-45 TST engine started life as an engine I flew in U/C Carrier. I sent it to LCS Performance and he fitted it with a Nelson F-1 backplate, modified the porting to match up with the Jett QM 40 muffler I had on hand, and had the liner rechromed. Since the engine runs WIDE OPEN , no throttle, he came up with a pretty slick way I can at least control it some what. He set it up to run on a BVM inflight mixture control for ducted fan use. All I have to do is richen it up, and boy it slows down quick falling off the muffler. Lean it out and boy does it GOOOO!!!!!!!

Life in the fast lane

David
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Old 11-01-2004, 06:07 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

The wing and fuselage is pure Stinger (Williams W-17).

But the tail is something else, since a Stinger had elliptical tail surfaces.

Looks great however and sounds like a strong runner.
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Old 11-01-2004, 06:22 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hello,
Hmmmm, OK the stab is different because the one it came with had a twist, so I made my own out of some good stiff 1/4" balsa. The one it had originally was elliptical. I just liked the look of this one better. Do you think it makes much of a difference?


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Old 11-01-2004, 06:37 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

No, the shape of the tail is pretty much personal preference. What is the span and the area of the plane?

I raced Formula One Stingers for years with 58 1/2" wiingspans, 451 sq. in. In their day, nothing on a race course could touch them.
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Old 11-01-2004, 07:31 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

The plane has a wing span of 56" and a wing area of 462 sq in. It came in at 4lbs 13oz . It has such a great glide. I kill the engine and I can make 3 full circles around the field before it comes down. The only thing I have to watch is if I get the nose up just a little it wants to keep flying. I already have over shot the runway 4 times. Any suggestions?? I wish I had two aileron servos in it, then I could kick them up a bit to kill the lift.


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Old 11-01-2004, 08:46 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Yeah, my Stingers were great gliders too. I could kill the engine and still do another lap (1/4 mile) from an altitude of 20 feet and still do a 360 turn for landing.

The best method for landing is to burn off the speed at altitude, and establish the glide slope. The ailerons lose most of their control, so you steer mostly with the rudder. Then control your landing point with the elevator. If you are going long, use more up elevator to get into the draggier "back side of the curve" (j-curve). If it looks like you are going to be a little short, lower the nose to gain speed and cover more ground (front side of the curve).

Another trick if you come in a bit hot is to get the airplane on it's wheels and rolling, then give full down elevator. The tail will lift and the wing will act like a drag brake. You can slow from a smoking hot landing in a very short distance.

The pylon guys learned this trick from the control-line racing guys who can go from full speed to a landing in about 1 lap. They kill their engine, and pulse the elevator quickly with up and down to kill the airspeed, then attack the ground and hit down elevator just in front of their pit area where they refuel, restart and take-off in just a couple of seconds. Truly amazing to watch.
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Old 11-01-2004, 10:31 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Thank you very much for all of the tips and the explanation. I don't understand my more guys on here are not trying to hunt down F-1 planes to go fast?? I know this one was maybe not a state of the art racer in it's day, but boy does it fly great. You should see the point rolls it can do at 180mph I bet if I put it in a dive of any great length it could push close to 200 BUT I like it too much to try that yet. For right now it is just fine.

Do you have any other props you could suggest other than the APC carbon fiber prop I am running? I rally rather not carve one.


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Old 11-01-2004, 11:37 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

It wouldn't take much of a dive to exceed 200.

Props aways make or break high speed airplanes. Carving wood props is an art. Making carbon props also. But you might try some of the APC D-1 quickie props in the higher pitches. Just cut them down in diameter from the 8 3/4 size. The danger is the rpm you are running. But at around 8" diameter with a higher pitch, the rpm should drop some. We ran around 8 1/4 x 7 3/4 props on Formula One with X-40's and Nelson 40's. But our speed was only in the low 170's though we were trying to have a prop that accelerated well from the launch and out of turns.

If acceleration is less important, then slightly small diameter and more pitch will work ok. Your engine with the tuned muffler (Jett) may be making more power with the 30% fuel than we got with just an open pipe and 65%. But our's made pretty noise in the air, and you can't beat the smell of four engines winding up on high nitro fuel before the launch. I think we were at about 110-115 dB.

Your right about the flying of old F1 airplanes. They really flew well, very ballistic performance. One with a Jett 50 would be a great place to start. But not too many of the old kits exist anymore. I guess we used them up about as fast as they were being put out by the few guys that made them. The Q40 airplanes are even smaller and lighter. Needless to say a bit faster too.
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Old 11-02-2004, 01:17 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

ORIGINAL: David Hill

Thank you very much for all of the tips and the explanation. I don't understand my more guys on here are not trying to hunt down F-1 planes to go fast??
I tend to keep an eye open for any of the older F-1 planes..especially kits. There are a few old F-1 planes out there, but not many. A few I know of are flying with SJ-50 engines up front. The general problem was that not to many F-1 aircraft 'survived' The ones that did survive are frequently prized possessions... hanging proudly on a shop wall.

If you run across a Prather Toni or one of Pauls Flying Stuff models at a swap meet, they are always a great find. Sometimes you can find an old wood Denight or Rickey Rat kit too. For sport use you can build these up about 1/2 lb lighter than for F-1, and power them with just about any 40-50 size engine.

I would imagine that Lyle Larson might have a couple Shark and Toni kits/parts still sitting around.
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Old 11-02-2004, 02:58 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hello,
I went out again and tried the only other props I had. An 8.75 x8.5nn cut down to 7.75 and I also had an 8x9 Taipan Prop. The cut down APC just did not let the engine run well, it was very hard to needle on the ground so I had to take off rich and try to lean it out in flight. The best we could do on the gun was 169, much slower than before. Now the Taipan 8-9 was another story. The engine turned taht at 22,100 BUT boy did it go in the air after about 45 seconds of flying. It seemed like the plane just kept accelerating.I found out something a little strange that Lewis Schwab at LCS Performance told me about. The richer I ran the engine, the faster the plane went. He said engines need fuel to unlaod and I guess he was right. It actually sounded like a real big nasty Tee Dee up there. 3rd pass level fight I hit 187mph . Now the problem is I am blowing a plug a flight[8D] Ahhhhh, the price of speed.

By the way, the full down on landing works GREAT. I also found if I do a couple of loops after I kill it, the glide is much slower. Thanks for those tips!

David
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:37 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Very good dave!

Hey... always count on Lewis for good advice.

Glad you are having fun !

The QM muffler you have is the trick here. It has a couple of staging points. That 22K rpm ground is key. Must be above that for launch. Thats what the QM engines launch at.. somewhere between 22.2K and 22.5K. Its actually slightly off of the "pipe" at that point as you may have noticed......which is one reason you want to launch a bit rich. If you try to lean the engine too much on the ground, you get a false peak, and the engine will go lean as it unloads in the air. Launching a heavy prop at 22K or slightly lower is possible, but one must be VERY careful or the engine will overheat on the ground.

What you described of the airplane having to fly about 45 seconds before unloading...... either the engine got a bit hot on the ground, and/or there is still just a tiny bit too much prop. Next time out, keep that prop.....after starting the engine, set the needle about where you last flew it, and have the person launching for you hold the nose of the plane about 30deg down angle until you are ready to launch. I'd be willing to be it jumps on the muffler the moment the wheels leave the ground [&:]

I have a feeling you are damaging the plug before the plane leaves the ground. Blown plugs are from lean runs. A brief over-heat on the launch can do this too. If the plane leans out in flight, you are sucking air or foam. Did lewis set you up with a tetra tank ?

Bob
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:49 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Blown plugs are from running lean, or from running your head spacing a little too tight.

Also, does this have a carb or shut off, or is it just a venturi? If its just a venturi, it helps if your holder slightly covers the venturi with a finger while the pilot is getting ready to fly. This helps keep the engine from sucking so much air, and keeps it a bit cooler on the ground before launch.

Definately consider a bladder type tank from Jett or Tetra.
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:26 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hi Bob and Dave,
I an running a Jett tank in the plane and they are all I use in everything. Best tank out there as far as I am concerned. One thing I left out, I am still running regular K&B 1L plugs, not Nelsons , so I am not surprise they are failing. The element is pulled down and pushed over just a bit which I thought meant it was a touch under compressed, and I wrong?? Lewis is making me a head button now for a Nelson plug with a neat cross hatched combustion bowl in the first bubble, not the one closer to the element. I can not wait to try it. I think he was shipping it yesterday. The one I am running now has that cross hatch and I picked up 300 rpm with it. He said he got the idea from something he worked on with Rossi several years back.


Dave, there is no way I can hold anything over then venturi, it is a rear intake using the Nelson F-1 backplate assembly. The BVM mixture control lets me keep it a little rich until I get ready to have my friend launch it.
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Old 11-02-2004, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hi David,
I see you have been busy with your new go fast toy Glad it is going good. I sent you out 2 head buttons, let me know how they work out. You can use the same head shim stack you have now. I also put in 2 Nelson plugs in case you did not have any. Boy you are right, those colors are BRIGHT, might have to try that combination.



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Old 11-03-2004, 05:29 PM
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David Hill
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Default RE: Flair Stinger --HOLLY #!@*

Hi Guys,
OK here is the update. I put on the new head button with the Nelson plug and it works great. 6 Flights and it was still good. Tachs up just about the same, but it puts out more smoke in the exhast. Looks great going by. Another strange thing is the needle is much easier to adjust with this head/plug combination. No idea if it was any faster or not, no radar gun to play with today. I can tell you one thing, I reall can't see wanting to go that much faster. OK maybe 200 just a couple of times


By the way, I am going back to the CF APC prop. The Taipan prop satrted to show a white area half way out in the blade. I did not like that at all.

David
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