Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Magnum carnage... total loss...

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Old 11-14-2004, 02:14 PM
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Rudeboy
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Default Magnum carnage... total loss...

Splattered my Magnum pretty good today.
Post mortem will have to be done to determine the cause. Let's hope I can find a cause... I hate unexplained crashes.
When diving towards the field the plane suddely rolled over on its back, and then it rolled back... that was probably me correcting. The roll to inverted happened about 50 feet off the ground and at a 45 degree dive. By the time I got the wings level again it was too late and it went in full bore.

The engine was buried about a foot deep into our very nice grass field.
I had to get a spade to get it out.
The rest of the plane was spread over a very nice debris field, about 3 yards wide and 10 yards long. The battery got away furthest obviously.

Engine is probably ok, pipe came out ok too. The rest is for the bin.
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Old 11-14-2004, 02:21 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

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Old 11-14-2004, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

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Old 11-14-2004, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

ouch [X(]

How about the engine ?
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:44 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

when my buddy's magnum went throught the trees at full bore there was not enough left to glue back together

debris field 115 feet long 25 feet wide wing in 3 pieces
never found battery but we did find its shrink wrap case
sport Jett 50 OK but headder and pipe junk
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Old 11-14-2004, 03:58 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Sorry for your loss, must have looked spectacular. Is it just me or can anybody else not see the pics? All I get is the placeholders but no pics.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

I can see the pics. When the words "magnum" "full bore" and "crash" go in the same sentence, do you need to see pictures? [:@]

I've seen one go in, it twitched out of a loop and headed straight down...was doing well over 200mph when it hit. The cylinder head of the west 50 was bent up at 90degrees.[] Your pipe seems to have survived pretty well. My mates was in a "W" shape.

Hope the engine's ok.
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:29 PM
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Rudeboy
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Yeah... its amazing... my pipe isn't even scratched. Look at the damage to the header!

Another nice thing about this one was that it actually left a "smoking hole" in the ground The smoke lasted several seconds.
Probably water from the moist soil evaporating on the hot engine. Very nice "special effect"!
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:42 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

You know, when my 60 size Cermark F20 with a Jett 90 up fron went in. It was sad but spectacular!
I too came around the bend for a high speed low pass and it went in right on the far edge of the runway full speed. Sometimes it seems like a crash that produces limited damage is more aggravating.

What I mean is you get disgusted and try to figure out if you want to repair it or not. When you have a plane go in full bore with an audience to boot and the wreckage resembles food at Golden Corral, thats impressive cuz there is no way your going to rebuild it and everyone is in "awe" over it as when you were just flying it at 130mph.[X(]

You try and fiqure out what happened yet. Ailerons or battery?
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:21 PM
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Strykaas
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Rudeboy, do you use a failsafe pcm radio ?
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:43 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Yes

Fail safe was set at 0.25 seconds signal loss... with a slight left roll, a little up elevator and throttle down.

Since the plane initially rolled over to the right I can rule out it went into fail safe.

I will look into it tomorrow. But even if I find the cause all the radio gear goes straight into the dustbin...
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:24 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

HI RUDEBOY, the worst part is not being able to figure out what failed. I suspect that vibration can feed back through the linkage rods, to the servos and fracture solder connections, or create intermittent trouble. At these speeds a momentary glitch can sure bring about spectacular results. glad you were able to salvage the engine!
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:31 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Whers your antenna routing? I learned something about a month ago on this fortunately I saw the signs and asked questions before anything happened. I think I wrote about it here somewhere.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

I had a similar rolling situation when my first Mag went in over 2 years ago. Pretty sure something on one of the elevators let go, because I remember the roll direction changing when I moved the elevator stick. Wasn't much left of it. It went in the sea flat out in a vertical dive...like hitting a brick wall! Only the motor survived.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

ouch.....

(original set of photos dont seem to work.....but I have a vivid imagination!)
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Old 11-15-2004, 10:06 AM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

My receiver was situated at the trailing edge of the wing. From there the antenna went straight through the aft section of the fuse and out the back. Where it exited the plane I guided it upwards behind the (square) trailing edge of the vertical stab. At the tip of the vertical stab it was secured again, and the remaining 6 inches or so were left dangling.

I also think I can rule out some sort of in flight elevator damage. The damage to the plane clearly suggests a violent impact between the left elevator half and the trailing edge of the left wing. Probably caused by the compression of the front end of the fuse and the fact that it was still held by the pipe on the right.
Both elevator horns were still secured to the elevators.
The left aileron is completely seperated. The torque rod is ripped out of the wing.

Observations so far:
Throttle servo stripped, control arm broken off. Other than the stripped gear the servo is still functional.
Aileron servo intact and functioning. Control arm broken off. One steering rod was not retrieved. The other one still has half a kwiklink and half a servo arm attached to it.
Elevator servo intact and functioning. Complete linkage still intact, except for the kwiklink at the side of the seperated elevator half.
Receiver still functioning. All servo connections intact. The wood fragments embedded in the servo connectors and the damage to the power lead suggest violent contact with some part of the airframe during the crash. After that it must have hit the ground pretty hard too.
Battery/swith connection was seperated violently. Minor contact marks on the battery.
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Old 11-15-2004, 10:08 AM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

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Old 11-15-2004, 10:33 AM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

This sounds way too familiar

My Cermark F20 (RIP) went in full bore. The same kind of crash. I was diving to do a low pass and the radio locked out due to some kind of interferrence. Full throttle straigh down. I had nothing, I could not even throttle back. Mine landed at the base of a tree. Not on the tree. not left of the tree. Not right of the tree. Just perfectly at the base. There were very thick weeds that contained all my sticks within a 2 foot area. EVerything was totaled. The servos had busted cases, wires trashed, pipe trashed, engine all busted up. Not a single servo survived the carnage.

Like others have said, if your going to crash...Do it with style. It is one that I will remember for some time!
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Old 11-15-2004, 12:34 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Something to consider...... (and often overlooked). Not trying to be medical examiner... just info.

When dealing with speed planes, there are some fairly high frequency and high engergy level vibrations involved.

Two of the most parts most vulnerable to this are the switch and the crystal.

Switch failures occure. Especially with inexpensive switches. In these cases, the switch will fail open. The radio does not have a chance to 'fail safe'..... it simply turns off. Sometimes you will see glitching or intermittent operation as the switch contacts vibrate open/closed... or as the switch contacts simply wear upon one another. There are some real 'cheap" switches on the market. Does not take much to make one of them fail open and ruin your day.

Possible scenario: Plane is flying ok.... comes from altitude in a big split-S, engine starts to scream as it unloads to ungodly rpm...prop and engine transmit a serious buzz into the airframe...... switch finds its resonance point....... airborn flight pack simply 'shuts off' ....game over.

On the RX...... if the RX in ANY way comes in contact with the fuselage during high power flight, the crystal will 'buzz' impeeding its operaiton, and can often fail due to the vibration. I had the unforuntate experience of having this happen first hand. Twice. The first time was fatal for the aircraft. The second time I saw what was happening and got the plane down. In both cases, the crystal survived, but the aircraft was lost.

Brief story on the second flight. Involved a QM40. Aircraft flew fine the day before. First heat of a race, the first turn at pylon #1 was uneventful. Then starting on the second lap, each time the plane turned hard a pylon #1, it went nuts. Briefly. Then resumed normal flight. The first time, I thought I hit dirty air. Second time, was not as pronounced.. just a tail wiggle. Third time, plane went nuts again. I pulled off the race course. In level flight, no problem. I shut down and landed without incident. Following the heat, I went back, pulled the wing. Recalling that the day before I had changed RX due to a frequency assigment...... I went looking for the RX installation. Sure enough, the RX had slide back out of its foam wrap....just a bit....... and had been rubbing directly on the fuselage. Althought it was not actually touching the fuselage, it was close. In the high-G turn at pylon #1, it was clear that the battery and RX were exerting enough force on the foam to compress it, and permit that exposed end of the RX to touch the airframe. This drove the RX and crystal nuts. I corrected the installation, with no further problems in flight.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:21 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Bob - what do you suggest for a switch in a high rpm/energy environment? I worry about switch integrity even though I have not had a JR brand switch fail on me.

Thanks.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

I tend to only use the JR Gold plated switches on the QM40 and Q-500 planes.

The smaller JR switche seem to be ok. I'm sure the Futaba switches are pretty good. The ones that concern me are the tin-plate house-brand switches. There are a couple of companies that make good after-market switches as well.

one other precaution..... I mount the switches on the servo tray if at all possible. I tend to install the servo tray in the fuselage with GOOP type adhesive. Works as a bit of a vibration isolator. Helps the servos and the switch survive a bit longer
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:33 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

If it were a switch failure, plane wouldn't have rolled suddenly....
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Old 11-15-2004, 06:52 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Your not the only one. I want to see the pic too.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:55 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

Uh ooohh... if that chunk of dirt got in there the way I think it did, we may have a problem. [X(]

That's what I thought when I lifted the cilinder head. But after taking the engine apart it became clear the it must have gotten there through the header when pulling the engine out of the ground.
The liner, piston and bearings are fine, and the crank is straight, so I think this one will run again.

Also, look at the damage to the head... it has been raining a lot here, so our field was really soft... if this had happened during the summer I think the engine would have been scrap.

As for switches... there's a guy (electronics engineer) in our club building electronic switches with integrated voltage regulators. These are off when they're on, and on when they're off Plus they have a 2 second delay on them, so even when they make intermittent contact they servos won't jitter. They are 50 bucks a pop, but I think that's what I'm using from now on...
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: Magnum carnage... total loss...

I don't see any point in using a switch. A 300 mah NIMH will give 20 minutes of run time, just unplug until you are ready to go, and bring spare batteries to the field. I think mounting the servos in silicone caulk is a good idea. And like BOB stated, keep the RX away from vibration. Too many crashes are written off as "interference", but they are actually due to high frequency vibration,"intermittance".
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