Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Denight Special Formula 1

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Old 02-02-2005, 04:47 PM
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js3
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Default Denight Special Formula 1

Speed Brothers and especially Bob27s,

Call it an impulse buy but last week I ordered and received a Paul's Flying Stuff Denight Special F1 kit from Sheldon's Hobbies. I guess nostalgia got the best of me. I never flew F1 but always looked at it as the pinnacle of R/C racing. The kit cost me just under $150 including shipping. I was hoping to get it for a bit less but they weren't willing to deal on planes that are no longer in demand. Apparently they are content to let them gather dust in their back room.

Anyway, my plan is to do it up right with the F1 style beauty-queen finish, cockpit, numbers, checkerboards and everything. Then for power, I was thinking a Jett BSE .50 FIRE with the quickie-length muffler and an eight inch prop though I would like to be able to use the APC quickie props too. My hope is that it will be faster than a 428 quickie but also have the ability to idle the motor for landing.

The wing construction states 3/32 sheeting with .010 CF sandwiched between the foam and balsa. Here's what puzzles me: The CF is laid out in two strips; the first is approx 2/3 span and at about the high point of the airfoil. The second strip is about 1/3 span and is aprox 4 inches behind the first strip. The instructions say to sheet the wings separately--splitting the CF!--then join the wings and add reinforcing glass. Doesn't splitting the CF in the center section defeat its purpose? Do you guys think I should add a spar to the wing for added strength? And about the wing sheeting, Paul says to select hard but light balsa for the leading edge sheeting then soft and light sheeting for the rest of the wing. That's kind of ambiguous. What weight of balsa should I look for?

Thanks for your expertise!
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Old 02-03-2005, 11:06 AM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

Sounds like a fun project!

Build per the instructions. It will come out great.

The CF is not intended as a joining spar. Just to stiffen the wing panel.

The center section is usually a set of layers of 2oz cloth arranged on a bias. Its very strong.

You do want somewhat medium-hard stock toward the leading edge. it ends up very dent prone. The remainder of the wing skin should be ligher (contest) balsa. Just be consistant. You have to glass the entire wing. That adds a great deal of strength. With the carbon installed, you may be able to get away with only 3/4 oz cloth over the whole wing surface. Usually I used 2oz cloth on the wings.

Engine.........ummmmmmmmm.... since you are building this from scratch........ maybe consider just using a regular SJ-50 with the q-500 muffler. Side exhaust. Its not as fugly as you might imagine, and if you use the RE pipe/muffler you will have to cut the cheek cowl/fuse side a bit, and still have the big thing sticking out. You can either utilize the cylinder side cheek cowl, or just build from the start to leave it off - will look like a current QM40 installation (attached SJ-50 up front - dago I believe).

I forget on that kit........ but is the fuselage full shape all the way to the nose, or is the engine bay cut-out for you already? If it is not cut, you can configure the engine installation and set the firewall pretty much Anywhere you want.

Utilize the D-1 Q-500 props. They will work just fine.

Sticking with the side exhaust, you also get the added muffler/nose skid feature (racers will know what I mean here)
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Old 02-03-2005, 01:10 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

wow. that plane looks fast just sitting there.[X(]
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:49 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

Thanks for the reply, Bob.

Well now you've got me thinking. I had wanted the SJ 50 FIRE so that I could put it in a scratch built pattern-type speed plane that uses a pipe and a pressure cowl (future wish-list project). But here's my thought--how hard is it to rotate the cylinder 90 deg from side exhaust to to rear exhaust? Is this something the end user can do easily or is it best left up to Dub? I know I'd have to use a separate top end for each configuration, RE and SE. Or I could just buy another motor. If the SJ 50s are anything like Dub's BSE racing motors, it just seems like I can't have enough.
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Old 02-04-2005, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

You can not rotate the cylinder. Although the BSE crankcase is originally fabricated in two pieces, the final machining is done after assembly. They are permanent assemblies.

If you want the investment for use down the road, by all means get the FIRE engine.

Something to think about..... go to the web site and request the Hangar Sale list. Dub almost always has some form of .40 or .50 engine on there that would be perfect for what you are doing. He ususally has some new or "used" Q-500 engines too... sometimes with a Red carb installated (throttle). Sometimes there is a FIRE on there. In most cases, they are special configuration engine he built for someone... and either had a credit carb bounce or the guy cancled the order. Others sometimes have a tool mark or chipped fin on the head or something minor. Worth a look... can save you a few $$ down the road
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Old 02-12-2005, 01:19 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

Bob,

I didn't realize that the case and cyl on BSE motors were intended as one piece. I assumed the design was like the MVVS motors where you can rotate the cylinder (prior to first run) from SE to RE.

Something else I assumed is that the Q500 muffler can be made to operate on a RE motor by leaving off the 90 degree header. Then it would require a custom RE header. Will this work or do I just need to plan on using a full length pipe from the beginning?

Another thought--should I plan to use a standard head button so that I can use K&B plugs or should I go with a racing head and use Nelson plugs? I don't mind using used racing plugs for sport use, lord knows I have plenty of them. Is there any performance advantage to using racing plugs?

Thanks for your indulgence!
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Old 02-12-2005, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

John,

You're going to force me to finish my Denight, it was my last low wing F1 because I switched over to midwing designs. I have the wing and tail surfaces glassed and at the point of installing ailerons. I have the YS-45 RE for it. I have seen a Prather Tony with this engine and long pipe. It landed slowly with the engine running, but was only able to fly 130-140 range (that might have been prop selection).

Bob,

Would Dub have a Jett Stream for RE that would work on a YS?
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Old 02-12-2005, 02:07 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

Bob (HighPlains)

I sure would like to see one of your F1 Stingers. I know you've said you don't take pix of your planes but maybe you could point me to a magazine archive or something? Or better yet, do you have a Stinger F1 that you could bring to the next race? I'd love to see it.

I'm just surprised that more people don't do the F1-for-sport-speed thing more often. Every once in a while you'll see a Prather Lil Toni pop up on eBay and someone will pay upward of $200 for it. I know that's a lot of coin but there are kits out there.

To me, there is nothing more beautiful in R/C than the lines of a nice F1. It's a shame the F1 event couldn't evolve and still be flown today.
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Old 02-12-2005, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

ORIGINAL: js3

Bob,

I didn't realize that the case and cyl on BSE motors were intended as one piece. I assumed the design was like the MVVS motors where you can rotate the cylinder (prior to first run) from SE to RE.

Something else I assumed is that the Q500 muffler can be made to operate on a RE motor by leaving off the 90 degree header. Then it would require a custom RE header. Will this work or do I just need to plan on using a full length pipe from the beginning?

Another thought--should I plan to use a standard head button so that I can use K&B plugs or should I go with a racing head and use Nelson plugs? I don't mind using used racing plugs for sport use, lord knows I have plenty of them. Is there any performance advantage to using racing plugs?

Thanks for your indulgence!
John.....

The jett-stream type muffler is available for the RE versions. Dub can make anything you wish As long as you can accomodate it on the aircraft well. Usually that ends up being the issue. If you want Q-500 props and rpm, you would have to specify that when ordering the engine and muffler so they are set up properly.


See image - shown here on one of the Fan .50 engines, but shows most of what you are talking about. (I do have to get a more up to date photo of one of these on a FIRE or something)

As for the head..... personally for this I'd go with the Nelson plug head. Chances are you will never blow a HD plug in there. As long as you have plugs and access to plugs, its the way to go.

High Planes,
I know the muffler will work.... works great on the side exhaust YS. Its the stub header/mounting that is at issue. If you note from the image, this installs on an O-ring adapter which is stock on the Jett RE engines. Do you have the o-ring style stub header for the YS? If so measure the diameter. Or can you get me the bolt dimensions where it mounts? Maybe the stock Jett RE stub will fit. I can check on that. If i am not mistaken, the Jett exhaust fit up with the ST X-40 and Nelson exhausts.

Bob
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Old 02-12-2005, 05:13 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

ORIGINAL: js3



Another thought--should I plan to use a standard head button so that I can use K&B plugs or should I go with a racing head and use Nelson plugs? I don't mind using used racing plugs for sport use, lord knows I have plenty of them. Is there any performance advantage to using racing plugs?

Thanks for your indulgence!
John,

I know Bob got your questions answered, but here my thought on it in term of using standard vs. Nelson plug.
If you're going to use the engine specifically for Sport use, I would highly recommend the standard head and using the McCoy 9 plug. The difference in performance is not really that much according to Dub, but maybe about 300 ground rpm from what he told me a while back. The standard plug head is far more user friendly if you have a carb on there for idling purpose. The Nelson plug is good for top-end in racing, but not Sport use in my experience.

Back in 1994 (I think) when Dub came out with a Formula 1 engine that use 15% Nitro fuel (trying to save formula 1 racing class), I bought one for Sport flying. Initially, I ran the engine with Nelson plug and huge ventury and it turn 8x7 prop close to 24,000 rpm on the ground. I was happy with the performance, but couldn't get the engine to idle when I installed the carb. I called Dub and have him sent me two new head button for standard plug and Lord behold... The darn thing would idle with carb installed and it still turned the same 8x7 prop over 23,000 ground rpm. I was amazed that this thing would idle when it was design to run high rpm's. I think the standard head is much better for your intent purpose even though you lose a little top-end power.

I still have that engine until now and has put in about 20 flights with a quickie plane since then. I will post pic of the F-1 engine once I find it later this weekend.
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Old 02-12-2005, 05:18 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

That's great Sam. Something else to think about. Thanks for the reply.

Post your pic when you get the chance. I'd like to see that setup.
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Old 02-12-2005, 08:35 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

Bob (HighPlains)

I sure would like to see one of your F1 Stingers. I know you've said you don't take pix of your planes but maybe you could point me to a magazine archive or something? Or better yet, do you have a Stinger F1 that you could bring to the next race? I'd love to see it.
This will put most peoples magazine collections to a real test.

There is a picture of my first Stinger in the January 1989 issue of Flying Models in the article about the 1988 Nats in Tidewater Va. At that time, the airplane was a year old (it had been entered at the Lincoln Nats in '87). This airplane was the very first high aspect ratio wing ever used in Pylon racing. It had a wingspan of 58.5" while most designs were around 50-51" It was so dominate in Pylon that within two years all other designs were redesigned to high aspect wings. Fortunately for the US pylon team, they had time to develop their own designs in time to sweep the FAI in 1989 placing the top four places that year. Now the FAI designs have even longer wings to reduce induced drag in the turns.

I still have one new Stinger built that is in primer, and a couple more that are still kits. I guess I should paint it at the same time as the Denight. Power it with a F1 Nelson and open pipe.

Bob
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Old 02-12-2005, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

Thats a good point Sam...

I think I still have the econo-F1 engine somewhere too

A regular SJ-50 even with a small prop will run a long time with a simple K&B 1L in there.

Oddly enough, the Nelson plugs ive run in the SS40 idle ok, but they sometimes do not transition well. The difference you saw was more likely due to the head/squish rather than the plug itself.

I bet I have a photo of your stinger somewhere I primarily flew pattern at Tidewater 88. Lost my Q-500 the day before racing during practice.
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Old 02-12-2005, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: Denight Special Formula 1

It sure was impressive at Tidewater to look up and see F14 Tomcats with the wings extended on landing approach overhead. My Stinger was painted with a bird pattern, and was very easy to see in the air. It was also a pretty good glider, as in one heat I did 10 laps and shut down the engine because it was going lean. As I crossed the finish line, I pulled the elevator to pop up to altitude to wait for the race to finish. It was then my caller (Jim Kelly) said, "Ugh, Bob, I hate to tell you, but you got a cut". So I dove back down onto the course and glided the entire last lap and still finished 2nd or 3rd. Most of the shorter winged F1's couldn't do a lap dead stick, especially if they were low winged.
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