Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Only one aileron on wing?

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Old 08-30-2005, 10:38 AM
  #1  
nexxa
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Default Only one aileron on wing?

(No. I dont want 2 servos setup for my ailerons)

Im missing place in the airframe to put linkage for a normal ailerons setup. Standard ailerons config (push, pull).
Is it possible to block one ailerons in place and only put one on the servo. The aileron is big enough and have enough travel to compensate?

Somebody already do this?

My airplane have 3 servos setup
1 trottle
1 wing aileron (only one of the two)
1 elevator

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Old 08-30-2005, 11:33 AM
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Razor-RCU
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

Yup- Pylon guys have done that.... Try a search for more info.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?


Yeah, as Razor noted, some of the old QM15 and 1/2A pylon planes (and a few others) used only one aileron.

In the long run, it was not worth it for racing, and it was just as easy to hook up a pair of working surfaces.

I'm not entirely sure about how your linkage is set up in that sketch, but in general 1 servo is all that is needed for two ailerons. Use torque rods, or you can set it up with bellcranks.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:17 PM
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daven
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

I agree with Bob, run two torque rods with one servo.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:37 PM
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nexxa
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

Yes I know how to setup my servo and rods to make 2 ailerons moved in the opposite way! I need place.... Just beetwen my ailerons servo I have another servo to control the elevator. If I put my 2 rods setup for ailerons it block the elvator servo.

I will go with one aileron setup, this plane his suposse to be very fast, I dont plan to make 3D with it!
I will post pictures next days

goto to this tread for all details: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3306385/tm.htm
(i know, this is why we need to draw plan before building something! )

Thanks for comments
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:53 PM
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daven
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

Looking good so far, could you put the elevator servo behind the wing and make a hatch?

Would this cause balance issues?

Personally I like two ailerons, its not high speed I would worry about, its getting that landing approach set up and banking out of your torque on take off that I would worry about.

Slow speed response with one aileron will be slower.
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Old 08-30-2005, 03:13 PM
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bob27s
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?


pardon the crudness of the quick sketch.......

Many of the 1/2A and a few older QM15 pylon planes were built as one piece (GLH, Miss Dara comes to mind). Some of the designs that started life with one aileron ended up in this configuration with two surfaces.

This aileron and elevator arrangement was fairly common. Aileron servo on one side, elevator next to it.

The aileron torque rods are simply different lengths. This is very easy to do with a flat wing (no dihedral). Pleanty of room.

You can mount the servos in the wing, in the fuselage, or a combination of the two.

Anyway, just a suggestion. I trust it is helpful

As Dave noted, that one time you try to land and get a bit off line and run out of speed, you will dearly miss the other aileron.

Bob

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Old 08-30-2005, 04:12 PM
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daven
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

Thats a good idea there bob, and really wouldn't effect anything.

We had a pretty bad crosswind this weekend, and I'm glad I had high rates coming into land. One guy didn't have enough throw and the wind was stronger than his ailerons landing a Neme-Q. Took it about 200 yards out into the corn after the wind pushed up a tip and he was forced to turn downwind away from the field.

... ERRR!!! I hate looking for planes in the corn.
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:23 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

only having 1 will decrease your redundancy... lose that aileron or that servo and its over... but from a flight standpoint it would work...
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

For all weather conditions, one aileron has to have lots of throw to keep the plane on course. By the time you get enough throw cranked in, you almost have a speed brake. For 1/2A designs with a 24" wingspan, one 8" aileron gives marginal control. It mainly saves room inside the fuselage with one less control rod to connect. For larger planes, 2 ailerons take less deflection to control the plane, and they make more sense.
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Old 09-09-2005, 08:28 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

you can fly on only one aileron?? cause if you look at it from an aerodynamic standpoint that aileron would cause more drag on one side, thus causing a lot of adverse yaw. then it would be easy to snap when your not expecting it.
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Old 09-09-2005, 10:56 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

Adverse yaw when you are almost in knife edge attitude and doing left turns is what keeps the nose UP, somewhat.......but you really end up with a one dimensional plane that isn't as much fun as having 2 ailerons.
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Old 09-10-2005, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

so basically you can only make left turns with it, then?
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Old 09-10-2005, 07:34 PM
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Mike Connor
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

ORIGINAL: Wide Open

so basically you can only make left turns with it, then?
I am with you Wide Open but in a sloppy way it does work. The absense of drag on the wing with no aileron can increase adverse yaw. An airplane with one aileron on the left wing would increased drag on only the left wing when the aileron is deflected in either direction. This would require right rudder when ever the aileron is deflected, up or down. While induced drag may be at a minimum when the aileron is deflected up, there is always profile drag with deflection in either direction.


edit -- replaced "left or right turn" with "up or down".
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Old 09-10-2005, 11:05 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

NO, you can turn either way, you TURN the plane with the elevator. The plane will roll [bank] either way, but if you put the single aileron on the starboard [right] panel, then left hand banked turns tend to adverse yaw the nose level, so you don't lose altitude in the turns. In the case of 1/2A pylon planes, there isn't any rudder so the single aileron was a gimmick to build in flight trim for turning left. If you put the aileron on the other side, you would bias right turns.
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Old 09-11-2005, 01:15 AM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

I once thought that using one aileron on a 1/2 A pylon racer would be a great idea, so I built one with only 1 aileron plus elevator controls. It turned out to be a dud for racing. It was flyable for straight and level flight and VERY gentle turns only. Everytime that I tried to do a tight pylon turn, it snap rolled. I gave up on the idea of using a single aileron, particularly when no rudder control is provided. The adverse drag mentioned by others is real, not imagined.
There is probably a way to design around the problem, but dual ailerons are the most practical solution.
Good luck.
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Old 09-11-2005, 10:41 AM
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combatpigg
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

It works well on my 120 sq inch, 8 oz bird. The plane does about 90 mph. I just bank the plane one time and fly the rest of the flight with the elevator. The plane can be flown with surgical precision as long as the weather is good. I think the plane has a roll rate of about one every 5 seconds. This plane is 1/2 the size of a legal AMA 1/2A racer, but it flies twice as good as one of those wallowing, floundering and mushy 20 ouncers. The size limits for 1/2A PYLON are at least 20 years behind the times.
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Old 09-11-2005, 01:51 PM
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Mike Connor
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

NO, you can turn either way, you TURN the plane with the elevator. The plane will roll [bank] either way, but if you put the single aileron on the starboard [right] panel, then left hand banked turns tend to adverse yaw the nose level, so you don't lose altitude in the turns. In the case of 1/2A pylon planes, there isn't any rudder so the single aileron was a gimmick to build in flight trim for turning left. If you put the aileron on the other side, you would bias right turns.
A single aileron on the starboard would make more sense for a left turning pylon plane. However, I can not see adverse yaw ever having more positive then negative effects from a drag standpoint.
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Old 09-11-2005, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

ORIGINAL: Mike Connor


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

NO, you can turn either way, you TURN the plane with the elevator. The plane will roll [bank] either way, but if you put the single aileron on the starboard [right] panel, then left hand banked turns tend to adverse yaw the nose level, so you don't lose altitude in the turns. In the case of 1/2A pylon planes, there isn't any rudder so the single aileron was a gimmick to build in flight trim for turning left. If you put the aileron on the other side, you would bias right turns.
A single aileron on the starboard would make more sense for a left turning pylon plane. However, I can not see adverse yaw ever having more positive then negative effects from a drag standpoint.

while banking... if the wing that is pointing up has the higher drag then the planes nose will be pulled up closer to center and since there is no rudder that would kinda help flying at 90 degrees from level flight...
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Old 09-11-2005, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

In near knife edge flight, you're using the fuselage to provide a great deal of the lift. The fuselage needs to be at a positive AoA to accomplish this. If you have a built in mechanism like a little adverse yaw, then it seems to work OK. The effect is very slight, and in reality my model will continue to sink slightly in knife edge mode, just not as much as with an aileron on each panel. The fewer changes of position and direction that you have to put your plane through for 10 laps will result in a faster time. In practice, the difference in performance [with planes on the scale that I'm talking about] is not measurable, but a plane with 2 ailerons will surely fly better in the wind.
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Old 09-11-2005, 02:44 PM
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Mike Connor
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?


ORIGINAL: Balsa Master

ORIGINAL: Mike Connor


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

NO, you can turn either way, you TURN the plane with the elevator. The plane will roll [bank] either way, but if you put the single aileron on the starboard [right] panel, then left hand banked turns tend to adverse yaw the nose level, so you don't lose altitude in the turns. In the case of 1/2A pylon planes, there isn't any rudder so the single aileron was a gimmick to build in flight trim for turning left. If you put the aileron on the other side, you would bias right turns.
A single aileron on the starboard would make more sense for a left turning pylon plane. However, I can not see adverse yaw ever having more positive then negative effects from a drag standpoint.

while banking... if the wing that is pointing up has the higher drag then the planes nose will be pulled up closer to center and since there is no rudder that would kinda help flying at 90 degrees from level flight...
You have to remember that the higher drag is only while the the aileron is deflected. You must return the aileron to neutral after the desired bank is obtained.
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Old 09-11-2005, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: Only one aileron on wing?

Yep, that's right, MIKE. The ailerons DO spend quite a bit of time either at or near neutral while doing the laps. And the plane does gradually sink in knife edge flight. You will notice the nose pick right back up when you decrease the bank angle. It would be fun to see identically powered [and lightly built] 1/2A racers go head to head with the different lay out ideas. Trying out different speed ideas on the class legal 1/2A pylon racers at 20 ozs RTF is like giving a dump truck a 50 HP shot of nitrous and then trying to look for a difference.

I think of the single aileron as more of a terminal velocity type gimmick anyway, at least you have one clean wing panel and one less hinge line.

If the guy who originated this thread wants to go with just one aileron, I would advise him to have the aileron span most of the wing panel, give it generous area and more throw than you would normally use for a dual aileron set up.
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