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Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

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Old 12-16-2002, 04:42 PM
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JoeEagle
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

A question to all who have done it or have personal experience.

I just ordered a Jett 50 for my GP Patriot .46 Kit, and after looking around here this past weekend, i started to think about a Cermark F-20, or a F-16.

So my questions are.

Can you still buy a F-20 from Cermark, couldn't find one one their website.

If you can, which of these 2 (F-20 vs F-16) are "better" and why? (are they both arf's).

I don't mind building, so is the Patriot in the same class as either of the above?

If as one poster mentions, the Cermark retracts are cheesy, what brand/model number do you recommend as a replacement? Also same for the Patriot (.46 size-I remember hearing B&D).

This is my first "fast" plane. I have been flying 1/4 scale this past year, and will be flying a 1/3 Scale Cap in 03.

I am trying to find a relatively fast plane to work up to faster (read turbine) plane and i don't want to go the ducted fan route now (or maybe ever). I fly off of grass strips, which i know kinda is difficult for planes with smaller wheels, and especially retracts, but that is what i am stuck with.

I know that the size of the F-20/F-16 is larger than the .46 patriot. don't know about what size the wheels are on the F-20/F-16, but the patriot recommend 2.25 and 2" for the retract version.

If someone can convince me that F-20/F-16 is the way to go, then i have to call Dub Jett NOW before he ships me a .50 size motor and just upgrade to the .90L. and comments on the .90L would be appreciated.

thanks in advance

joe boyd
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Old 12-16-2002, 06:06 PM
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maverick
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

It is my understanding that the Cermark F-20 is no longer in production and there are none left. Also the Cermark F-16, although I have never owned one, I have heard complaints about the large scoop under the fuse where the air intake is on the full scale version, creates a lot of drag and slows the plane down.

I personally have a Patriot kit which I am about to start building and will be buying a Jett 50 for it. I also have the B&D air retracts.
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Old 12-16-2002, 08:37 PM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

Joe,

You might want to consider a ducted fan with fixed gear instead of retracts. Built light, most fans will fly off of grass fields (look into a Starfire). While being a nice plane the Patriot doesn't have the same flight/landing characteristics of a fan plane or turbine. It will sharpen your thumbs though.

If you truely want to move toward turbines, a sleek pattern ship will help you with the "at speed flight" a nice heavy warbird with flaps and retracts will help you get the landings down.
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Old 12-18-2002, 02:09 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

I have the Jett .50 on a DC F-20 which is the same size as your Patriot. It will be an excellent combination. If you happen to go with the Cermark (if you find one) you will need a 90L to be satisfied.
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Old 12-18-2002, 03:40 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

thanks for the comments about the ducted fan and the cermark.

i think that im going to build the patriot, get the f-16 (cermark is out of F-20's) and get a 90 for the f-16. anybody decide to put a hole in the air intake to mitigate the drag created by it?

thanks in advance.

joe boyd
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Old 12-18-2002, 06:16 AM
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Razor-RCU
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Default Cermark?

Check on e-bay I always see an F-20 or 2 on there...

How about about a TGA F-15 DF? Supposedly gets off grass pretty well with an OS-91...

Later,
james
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Old 12-19-2002, 05:07 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

I Have The F-16,it is not as fast as I expected,maybe 120,But it sure flies great.Lands like a dream and I have flown off pavement and grass equally well.The retracts are Good and work very well,just take your time setting them up.
Also,this is a 60 size plane and will need all the power you can put on it,I have the Jett 90 on mine. I am flying the plane with the closed intake right now ,but will open it up when I fly it again.

Good luck!
Steve
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Old 12-19-2002, 08:50 PM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

Thanks Steve. That is the setup that i would like to do, i am sending dub jett another check for the 90L. did you do the BSE engine, or the regular one? dub said same performance, but different looks!!-yup, the BSE's look nice on the website.

anyhow, did you consider different retracts such as air retracts instead of mechanicals? for more robust rough field longevity?

ps, how are you going to terminate the other end of the hole you are cutting in the "air intake"?

cheers

joe
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Old 12-21-2002, 02:50 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

I dont think you can get a BSE 90,they are pretty,but not in production yet ,,,,that I know of.
The sport Jett 90 L is your best bet. You will be amazed with the Quality of a Jett Engine.
If you cut the inlet front and open the bulkhead at the back of the wing saddle,you can then look down the scoop and you will see vast? amounts of daylight for flow thru.
Thats how I did Mine,but I havent flown it yet in this configuration.
Steve
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Old 12-21-2002, 07:07 AM
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Default F-20 still available....

Look here http://www.kangkeusa.com/
Looks like the same thing as the Cermark...
Forget the F-16....yes they look cool, but they won't
go fast. Your money for the Jett .90 will be wasted
on the F-16.

Trust me on this one....I currently fly the .40, and ..60
size Cermark F-20's, as well as the Cermark F-16. If you
wanna push 150, get the F-20. FORGET EVEN THINKING
ABOUT THE STOCK RETRACTS....they are junk.
Use the Robart 609 HD's...90 Deg., and their nosewheel.
(all mehanicals).

Dave.
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Old 12-22-2002, 05:23 PM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

any personal experienc with Kange products?? how about cutting a hole in the scoop of the cermark f-16 and putting a tube to the exhaust outlet to releave the drag/pressure buildup caused by the fake air inlet?

no new f-20s available. unless you know where i can by a .60 size one. i'll have to check ebay

cheers

joe
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Old 12-22-2002, 06:03 PM
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Default F-16 air scoop....

....it has been suggested that by opening up the
scoop, and slotting the back to let the air out
might help. The rear area butts up to the round
fuse...and I think that this would create more
problems that it cures.

Dave.
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Old 12-22-2002, 09:28 PM
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Default scoop

Where theback of the scoop meets the round fuse ,cut a hole in the fuse bulkhead at that point ,and you will see that you can open it up quite alot.Wish I had a digital camera,I could show ya.(maybe christmas)
Steve
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Old 12-22-2002, 09:35 PM
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Default engine

If you go with the F-16,use a OS 108,all the power you want,but cost a lot less than the Jett.
By the way,My Jett 90 will completely drain the fuel tank on my F16(maybe10 or 11 ounce) in a little under 4 minutes if I fly at full throttle,I would think the OS would give greater flight times> just my thoughts.
Steve
ps If you read the instructions and make good connections to the retracts ,they work Perfectly,even off grass.Setting them up correctly is the key to a reliable retract system.
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Old 12-22-2002, 11:42 PM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

Originally posted by GeeBee
I dont think you can get a BSE 90,they are pretty,but not in production yet ,,,,that I know of.
The sport Jett 90 L is your best bet. You will be amazed with the Quality of a Jett Engine.
If you cut the inlet front and open the bulkhead at the back of the wing saddle,you can then look down the scoop and you will see vast? amounts of daylight for flow thru.
Thats how I did Mine,but I havent flown it yet in this configuration.
Steve
I believe the BSE series are smaller high performance engines geared toward Pylon/Q500 stuff
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:34 AM
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Default Cermark F-16

I did not use the fiberglass scoop! I built up a mook up out of sticks and sheeted it! A lot smaller frontal area similar look! I thought of routing the exauast out the back but all the control's are there and they are difficult enough in the lack of space provided. Spend time with the retracts and locktite everything!
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:50 AM
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Default F-16 Bottom View

My scoop Custom less frontal area
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Old 07-24-2003, 02:46 AM
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Razor-RCU
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Default cool

Real clean LUDS!

What is on the nose of that beast? (108 is my guess)

More pics please
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:01 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

Joe,
Kangke has both a 40 and 60 size F-20 available. I'm putting the 40 size together now.
Very nicely done ARF...little different though. Has a horizontal stab, complete with elevator servo that bolts to the airframe, ( Blind nuts already installed.) Nice, rather thin one- piece wing. (Set up for fixed gear, not retracts.)
The framing and covering is first rate. The hardware is 'OK'.
I snapped one of the threaded rods trying to 'Z-bend' it, so will replace all of them. It has hardwood engine rails, so you may only get one shot at your engine choice. But all-in-all, it's a very nice , fast building plane.
It does not look near as slick as the Patriot though...kind of boxy, but it should be fast. I'll just be using a Max 46FX, but it will still out-pace anyone at my field....so it should be fun.

CONTENDER
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:57 AM
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Default wOw

I have heard many good things about both F-20's The most popular seems to be the Direct Connection 40 sized one, (ARC) dunno what differences there might be-

I have the bigger Cermark F-20 with the bolt-on elevator deely.... Tempted to glue the whole thing on, cuz it makes me nervous-

As for the hardwood mount, remember the OS-46FX shares a bolt pattern with a bunch of other engines if you wanted to change later-

ASP- 46/52
OS-50FSR and the newer 50SX
Irvine-46 & 53
TT Pro-46
Magnum-46 & 52 (I believe)
and of course the Jett-46 & 50

Nice to have options!

james
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Old 07-25-2003, 05:26 AM
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Default Cermark F-16....

...I'm gonna take the scoop off mine, and just stream-
line the fuse at the rear of the wing....forward to the
front of the wing. I'm using the OS 1.08 FSR, and it
has plenty of steam....

I also need to chuck the stock retracts, and put in the
Robart #609 HD's.....

Dave.
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Old 07-26-2003, 06:08 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

WoW wish I would have read all this about the Cermark F16 a couple of weeks ago. I bought one off of a guy on ebay, flew it a few days ago and it had to have been the most dissapointing flight of my life. Was not what I expected, I fly the DC F20 and the Great Planes F14 and it was not even close, after two flights it is now a ceiling ornament in my garage.
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Old 07-26-2003, 06:37 AM
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Default dmartian....

....what do you have in yours...? Don't even tell me
an OS .91 FX.... ....

....that's how I got mine. A Buddy put it up....paid
originally $369. for it....put the FX in it....it was such
a dog, he pulled the motor out, cleaned it up and sold
it....pulled the radio, and gave me the plane as partial
payment for a rebuild I did on another of his planes.

Actually, when I get the scoop removed, the canopy
removed and filled in....and the junk retracts in the
gargage can....the plane will really do ok. The 1.08
FSR is a brute....and right now it's flying fast enough to
buffet the scoop pretty bad.

I think when the 1.08 get's some more time on it, and
the right prop....with the streamlining....I can get it up
close to a buck and a quarter. It's only redeeming feature
stock is....it's a good flying plane....no bad habits....flies
on rails, and looks good.

I have in the past however, described it as a telephone
pole with stabilizers on it....

Dave.
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Old 07-27-2003, 12:26 AM
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Default Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

It has the MVS 77 in it, does track well even though it feels like it is always about to stall, and does flare out real good for some aerobraking. How do you put pictures on here I want to show off my f20, is there a web site on the Jett engines I have been reading about this host line?
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Old 09-12-2003, 06:39 PM
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LUDS96
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Default RE: Cermark F-20 vs F-16 vs Patriot kit

Any one have flutter problem's Mine fluttered real bad the other night! Not sure which surface! Got my pipe tuned in some what cranking 12,600 with 11x9 apc! picked up 1000 RPM don't want to push the Super Tiger 90 much further! New Factory Version well see!
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