Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

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Old 05-17-2006, 06:33 PM
  #1  
Razor-RCU
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Default Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

I love prop-jets but I would like to have a place with all the info. I need about these new kits/ARF's instead of digging over here and searching over there... The MFG recommends a 25LA but with a TT Pro-46 it BARELY flies. or I had to add 6 oz. of tail weight to a 3 1/2 lb plane for balance. We wanna know the good, the bad, and the ugly!


There are quite a few new prop-jets out these days and MANY threads about this one or that one, some informative some dead-ends...

I would like to start a thread about Prop-Jets specifically where we can find pics, reviews, details and mods from real builders instead of just Manufacturers specs.


Crazy4flight built an F-20 right? He is dialed in right? Let's get the info. Crazy!

Bob27 has a protech F-15 and Jett-30 on the board yes? (I know you are busy Bob but when you get a chance-) lets get GOOD info. from our Prop-Jet Sensei's

Is it worth the price?

Is it a bunch of plastic?

How is the customer support, if any?

What is the real CG?

Real flying weight?

What kind of performance can we ACTUALLY expect?

How about PICS from people actually building or flying these prop-jets.

Here are a few to start with, do any of you own or fly these? Want to write a short review explaining your set-up? Just a short post with info. it does not matter if you used an OS-40FP and std. servos all around, or a Jett-60LX Retracts and digital servos- we want to hear from you!

We need info. from a beginners first impression of a prop-jet to the guys who strip the covering, glass it and put in BVM wheels and brakes!

Some relatively new kits/arf's:

Cermark F-16
Angel's Rifle **
Weston Magnum R
Phoenix F-20
Any other F-20?
VMAR Mig-21
VMAR F-4
VMAR F-5
VMAR A-4
Protech F-15
Protech "Alpha Jet"

Old School like:

GP patriot (40 size)
GP patriot XL

SIG Kobra
Cougar
King Kobra

Remember that F-15 from years ago?

DC F-20
CBM F-16 or F-16N
Lanier F-4 or F-86
I am sure there are more...

Heck if you have a Curare or Tipo with a YS-60RE turning a 12x11 that qualifies to!

Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

james
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Old 05-17-2006, 06:48 PM
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Default RE: New propjet reports Here!

The Great Planes Patriot (40) has been a favorite of mine for several years and I have had more than one in both kit and ARF form. They are discontinued AGAIN so if you find a kit/ARF or RTF version on fleabay or something- buy it!

This propjet is obviously best when fitted with a high performance engine like a Jett-50, YS-45 or the new Jett-60LX, and retracts. But if you don't want to drop the cash on one of those, or if you are not sure if you will enjoy this type of airplane just start with an OS-50SX or similar. I have flown the combo and it has PLENTY of power... Down the road you can sell your car and get a Jett

Do not even bother using a 60 sized sport engine, you will end up nose heavy and an average 60 cannot get you enough RPM's anyway--- more stump-pullers in the 60 class than speed- Same can be said for the weaker 40-46 sized engines- I love my OS-46FX and TT Pro-46's as much as the next guy but if you are going to build or buy a patriot, get a decent engine (see below). Some folks start with a stock 46 until they are used to the speed then they upgrade engines- good idea I suppose...

Also, I have always used standard servos like Futaba 148's or 3003's etc. Many people will tell you to get higher grade servos, I am usually poor and I have never had a servo problem so I just get a 6V pack (Ups the torque from say 45 oz. to about 60 oz.) and I am ready to rock- (even at 4.8V I never had any issues) just do not YANK it 90 degrees at full throttle and stuff-

I do recommend glassing the center section of the wing to add strength, if you are using anything stronger than a standard 46 (just in case-) if you have any questions (as I did years ago) about glassing, do a search or email me, it is WAY easier than most think--- takes about 15 minutes!

Other sport engines that will provide better than average performance are:

YS-45 (macs 7.5CC pipe or UT) 10x8 APC
Webra-50GT 9x8 APC
OS-50SX 9x8 APC (Tower or UT)
Rossi-45/53 (mini-tuned silencer)
MVVS-49 (Moussecan or other)
K&B-48 (Jettstream or UT muffler)

Even the Irvine-53/Tower muffler was a pretty decent combo. on the Patriot (10x7 I think I ran, it was a few years ago)

For folks who are hard core I would recommend powerplants like:

Jett-90
OPS- anything
Picco anything
Ducted fan engines like the OS-46VRDF/VF or OS-77VRDF

These would require some retrofitting but would be hair-on-fire fast!

As for retracts, they ARE worth the weight, hassle and cost so at least consider them- I prefer Pneumatic units (Air actuated) to mechanicals (Servo actuated) because the air units are easier to set-up, and install. Also, if you have a leak, an air hose comes loose or you just forgot to pump them up between flights, they will lock DOWN automatically. (Not all brands are like this- Spring Air is what I recommend) Spring up and air down! In the old days the air would push the gear down so not enough air, no locked out gear!

having bragged about the air versions I must admit that my current patriot uses mechanical retracts and they work just fine, you just have to check them regularly for slop, and possible binding- if they bind up while flying and the servo stalls, your RX pack can go dead VERY fast, sometimes in just 2 or 3 minutes. So if you land hard, test them and listen for servo buzzing on the ground, before subsequent flights!

That is basically it, the patriot is only slightly more difficult to fly than say an Ultra Sport or fast ugly-stick, just make sure the control throws are fairly low (Dual rates if possible) use some expo. so the sticks are less sensitive around center, and get the CG spot on.

Thanks for reading and I hope I was of some service to you!

james
#1 patriot fan
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: New propjet reports Here!

I second this idea. I love my Sportsman Aviation F-20 and I love speed. But I really love the look of a sleek prop jet. And I'd like to know about new designs coming out and about current ones.
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:58 PM
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Default RE: New propjet reports Here!

Okay Setx, what is your set-up and what did you like or not like about the SA F-20?
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: New propjet reports Here!

I probably said my setup a hundred times, but here's 101.

SA F-20
TT .46
Jett muffler
Tru Turn spinner
10X6 apc
Futaba 4ch radio w/ 4 servos

I loved this sport jet, and I think other prop jets arf's have a lot to live up to. It's built great, looks great, and is really aerodynamic...and fast! The only problem I've encountered is where the nose gear connects to the plane, it's weak. Next SA F-20 I get I will easily fix this. It' not a big deal.

132mph with a 8-10mph tail wind
143mph at a 45* angle toward the ground

Not bad for a simple TT .46 and $170 ARF.

I wish they made more prop jet out there. We need to start a petition for the manufactures!!!


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Old 05-17-2006, 08:36 PM
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Default RE: New propjet reports Here!

OK Bro you asked. While the Patriot and GP F-15 kits are still in their cozy boxes. I have had two Kangke F-20s one with a .46FX the other with my trusty MVVS .45. Both are excellent flyers. Tho the land a little fast for my taste. They also needed a tad of the L word in the back and the battery under the rudder to get balanced. Also they don't fly slow! Keep the speed up for life.[8D] The SA F-20 flew once with the Czeck motor untill I screwd up trying to fly slow[:@] and turn at the same time, bad idea. The plans for the SA didn't give any location for radio or batt location and the cowel was a messy fit. Also the rudder linkage was a little hinky to get located right and had a tendancy to bind. The SA also needed way more L word in the tailcone to balance[:'(]. Funny thing I went to take a few pics of the F-16 and the batteries in the camera were dead. So you will need to wait till the morning.
The CBM needs around 7oz[X(] in the tail. I am casting it tonight.
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:47 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

That is what I am talking about guys!

Setx- I know you have probably put your specs up somewhere on RCU but now we have one thread to bring it together- Have you tried a 9x8 APC?

Vic- You the man as usual! Did the MVVS outperform the OS? I figure yes, but what'd you think?

How hard would retracts be to install on the kangke? You have a Patriot KIT NIB? Lucky *******...

Is the Kangke the one that is a copy of the DC kit?

Cheers everyone and keep it coming!
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:58 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

I like both motors fine. I think the MVVS is a little hotter than the OS. but can't really give hard core proof. Actually I have two Pats in the box[>:]. Kangke and the SA = no retracts. They aint worth the amount of surgury it would take. The SA is the DC lookalike. In the pics its the red one with a white stripe. I really liked that one too. The DC original will accept retracts. A clubmate has one that looks awsome. I should have bought the kit before he did. I think Juno RC has the same one available here in the USA now. I recomend getting one while he has them availble if you can.
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Old 05-17-2006, 09:44 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME GENTLEMEN! I AM A "HAVE" TYPE PILOT. NOT A "HAD"!
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

Cyclic is in the house! He has the definitive F-20 (He and Dave anyway--) How old is that plane Cyclic?

Sweet looker!

Don't you have or had a bigger F-20 the grey one with the Jett-90?
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:04 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

I have the vmar f4 phantom, and the f5 tiger, mig 21 and the a4 skyhawk,,the vmar f18 is on the way,,,so if you have any questions on them let me know and i will try and help...
i think a prop jet forum would be great....
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:08 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

Yeh, I'm here. Both of those are in hanging from the ceiling right now but ready to go. Trying to get that rebuilt Dago in the air. Too windy today for it. Maybe Saturday
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:11 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

js615- I do not think we can get a Forum for Prop-Jets but I wanted to make this thread the home base for all things Prop-jet!

How about a quick review or your VMAR airforce- engines, performance, ki/arf quality etc.? You must really like those! The MIG looks especially sweet!

Look forward to your posts-

Cyclic- I was waiting for the Ultra-Sport/Jett to show up...

You are recovering a VooDoo right? What is your set-up?
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

razor rcu,,.

Well my f4 has a os max 91 fx, turning a 13x8 apc prop,,she drinks wildcat 30% ,,performance, well not as fast as my f5 or mig, the airframe on the phantom is a bit draggy but she can still run pretty good, i have to make long take off runs because im on grass,, the overall quality of the f4 is great, and its not lazer cut like there new ones, that are just out..my f4 was my first propjet, and she has been through hell, hard landings and the like,,, and the plane still looks new,,
the mig has a g90 st,, and will flat out move,, so does the f5,,,all are very well built, very good quality on all,,i have seen on here where alot of folks have bashed vmar in the past
but i have bought 24 arfs in the last six months and seven of them are vmars and they are just as good as all the rest, and most of those are hanger 9s..as far as the vmar propjets i think they are tops....
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

This you Cyclic?

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Old 05-17-2006, 11:37 PM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

JS615, quick question, I have seen a lot of bashing on VMAR and their propjets, but why are they so expensive? Also, they look kinda cartoonish. Can you post some pics up of some of yours like your F-20 or A-4? Give us some more details some things you like or don't like about the plane.
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Old 05-18-2006, 04:06 AM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

HI Guys,

This was my Pheonix F20, same as Cyclic's, & Haveblue's aircraft. We Aussies got the "Rev 0" version with the crappy elevator set up. The rest of the world got "Rev 1" with updated elevator & rudder servo positions. I had a Jett 50, & Jr servo's & JR 3810 TX

I now have a Sportsman F20 NIB waiting to go soon as I finish a new wing for my S1d pylon racer. New f20 will get the same Jett & Jr gear as the old 1.

Tony.

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Old 05-18-2006, 06:55 AM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

ORIGINAL: Razor-RCU

Cyclic is in the house! He has the definitive F-20 (He and Dave anyway--) How old is that plane Cyclic?

Sweet looker!

Don't you have or had a bigger F-20 the grey one with the Jett-90?


The F20 is 6 years old and original. The Ultra Sport was given to me from a guy who had it in poor condition and needed a rebuild and covering. The engine and components in the Ultra Sport came from that gray f20.

The Gray F-20 went in hard and fast on it's maiden run. It was a Cermark and the elevator fluttered and killed the servo. I don't attribute that to pilot error. It was a very spectacular crash. It was so good that I really had no emotiions for the loss. I had just finished trimming and opened er up to come around for a high speed pass. I was way up their coming in at a 30 degree angle and it never pulled up. Nailed it right in front of us. Ultra sport has been fine for 2 years now.

I think that gray one is still on Jetts webpage somehwere.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:40 AM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME GENTLEMEN! I AM A "HAVE" TYPE PILOT. NOT A "HAD"!
Just so we are clear, I still have them just not in pristine flying condition.[sm=bananahead.gif]
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:52 AM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

Yeh, thats it.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

Oh right, like I am the only one.
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:15 AM
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JS615
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

setxws6

i dont have a f20,,not yet at least, but im going to get one..my a4 skyhawk is a box of tooth picks,, she went down on her maiden flight, dont ask me what happened because i dont know, im still trying to figure that one out!!!! i can say it was a good looking plane.
As far as being cartoonish, well they kind of look that way in their ads on the internet, but when you see one for real up close they look good, when i take mine to the fly field they always draw a crowd, and everybody has great complements,, they all love the looks.
they are alittle expensive but i think they are worth it,,, when i get a digital camera and learn how to use it i will post some picks!!!
as far as dislikes, i dont really have any,, the landing gear on the vmar prop jets need to be reinforced in the wing area alittle, and that is easy to do,, as a matter of fact i do that to all my planes no matter who makes them,,, because no matter how good you are you can always have a hard landing, everybody has a bad day every now and then,,
My f4 phantom has had more hard landngs then my other propjets, because it was my first,, and i mean she has hit hard bounced and bounced again and the structure on the gear mounting area is not even phased,, no problems at all..
the f5 is the only one i have that is lazer cut, but i was told that they are all lazer cut now..
my mig 21 is really a good looking plane, you have to becarefull holding this plane in certain areas on the fuselage because it has a couple of areas that have thin sheet balsa,, but that is because they are trying to keep the weight down,, its no big deal though.. i just put alittle thin CA in there and that takes care of that!!
my f4 f5 and mig all weight in the 10 to 11 lbs area...
And i can say that these planes are easy to land,, the f4 comes in gliding like a trainer,, the f5 and mig has flaps so they are also very easy to land,, the f5 and mig come in alittle hotter then the f4,, i would say a person that flys a high wing trainer only, could land the phantom.. As far has takeoffs, i just run 3/4 of the run way and slowly pull back the elevator stick had she lifts right off, very scale like, and just keep climbing out till i get enough speed and altitude, and then start haveing fun,, You know thats what this is all about, HAVING FUN..
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:23 AM
  #23  
JS615
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

In my last post i said that all of my propjets are easy to land,and they are, but the reason i had some hard landings with the phantom at first is because all i heard before i flew it was how hard jets are to fly and you got to bring them in super hot to land,
and i should have picked an easier propjet and on and on and on,,, so i was alittle nervous till i figured out how easy they were,, at least these propjets are..
It gos to show you, dont listen to those that start mouthing at you because they probley dont know what they are talking about...
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:42 AM
  #24  
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

okay here it goes...Vmar..get bashed about to much..I love my F4 Phantom..it has retracts, 9servos, STG90 for power turn an 12 x 8, as for speed ..I dont like like guessing , I will be getting an eagle flight data recorder soon and will fit pitiot tubes in every wing of every jet I build, as for improvemnents to vmar..a little extra epoxy around the engine bulk head(like I do to any ARF) and maybe control horns with a bigger foot pad or just CA harden the balsa before install other than that just as good as any other ARF. Would not hesitate at getting that mig 21

The F20 is of course the Pheonix version 0 as Crash put it.. I still have to relocate that boogey servo , I am tied up with other projects when I can get back to it, I'll relocate those servos.. the F20 runs a OS 50Sx w/ 10 x 6 and a tuned muffler..still only two tanks thru her and 1 flight only..but that OS is ok

I cant fly at the moment ..a water pump at work blew a hose off and I got sprayed with boiling water so I'm off work and not very mobile at the moment..but will get her finished off as soon as I can

other propjets in the works
Juno F20, Jett .46, retracts and will have a heap of mods like no ducts shorter wing etc and more as I think of them during the build

Juno F/A 18, have a Jett 90l for her got the retracts , just need servo's and get her built

AKM SU27 with another jett90l the regular springair 701's and she too is sticks sitting in a box ..for now
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:20 PM
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JS615
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Default RE: Definitive Prop-Jet Thread

haveblue

if you like the f4 phantom then you will really like the mig 21,,, i dont know how fast any of them go but as soon as i can get somebody at the field with a radar gun maybe we can find out..i will say that the mig 21 i have is the fastest,,,next would be the f5,
i cant wait to get the f18 hornet,. should be here late june..
Oh by the way,, word is vmar is coming out with a new line up of planes,,, it will be intresting to see what they are...
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