Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

challenging speed plane modification

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Old 05-23-2006, 05:19 AM
  #1  
HaveBlue
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Default challenging speed plane modification

well I guess this would be the best place to ask... Most of us are looking for an all out speed trip, and there are many good planes out there from the ARF's to special custom made speed frames as the german blokes are building... unfortunately they have let me down, I was going to get 3 curare .40 fuse's made and shipped over... at the last minute they came up with excuses ..and in short wont make them for me for fear I wont pay...hmmm..this could have been sorted out had they given me a chance ..non the less I am not impressed[sm=devious.gif]

So , bugger that.. I will find my own pure speed frame and this is what has wetted my appetite for a project... what I want is the bretherens opinion on this air frame, mind you I have yet to find out the fuse width.. but If I can fit a tank and engine in this fuse , I think it should be a mover

so what say you!

http://www.precisionaerobatics.com/p...spx?prodID=889

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Old 05-23-2006, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Now ya are thinking

Take that model - wing, stab, most of the fuselage are perfect as-is. The carbon structure is sturdy, no doubt well suitable for taking the flight loads.

What it needs now is a 60LX rear exhaust.

You would mount the engine on the nose, inverted. It looks liked the diameter of the spinner and forward fuselage would accomodate a piece of 1.4" or 3/8 plywood for engine mounting. QM40 type rail mount would work nicely.

(you want the engine and pipe inverted - do not disturb the airflow over the top of the wing center section)

Build an engine enclosure/pipe tunnel to sling below the fuselage - which blends/attaches to the existing fuselage.
(you want to avoid modificaiton to the existing fuselage - keep its integrity and strength). The tunnel can be built from wood to start with to get the shape, and with a little help from the guys in the composites forum here on RCU, you can easily build a quick mold to make a fiberglass/carbon part. In that process, you can include a sturdy keel down its centerline to act as a landing skid.

Beyond that... if you want an actual pattern aircraft, contact Carolina Custom Models and get ahold of a Patricia or T2-A or Intruder or similar.... with the right power they can be as fast as you like. (look in the pattern / classic pattern forum). My guess is he will not have any huge reservations selling you a kit.

Bob
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:06 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

I like your original idea for a speed/sport plane. Curare 45, or how about an EU1A 45. Drop in a Jett 60LX or a Jett 90. Won't win the German speed cup, but would be very quick and a lot of fun.
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Old 05-23-2006, 09:42 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Bob27s- I was thinking th same about mounting the engine inverted and adapting , probably in fiberglass, a cowl to enclose the engine and pipe as I don't know much about working or rather reworking CF, and as you pointed out , I didn't want to compromise the integrity of the CF

my major concern would be working out a new CofG.. but I have the information on how to calculate this ..just haven't studied it yet , only browsed it ,so it shouldn't be a big issue..

As for Carolina Custom Aircraft.. I got intouch with Dan Hines back in October of 2005, I like T2 - A and the Brush fire but determined that these were a bit large and when those Speed cup guys chimmed in and said that a .40 size craft is the go..well I fell for that hook line and sinker ,made sense..and put those beautiful pattern craft at the bottom of the must have list.

As for the 60 LX.. well you know that gets me drooling and it is on my "absolutly must have list"
now I'm thinking a thirsty engine like that, would need at least 10 oz tank for a decent run..I can't see me getting anything more than a 6oz tank in there and my choice would be a round bubbless tank from Jett... I would hope for about 3 minutes running if I'm lucky, but that should do.. I only need a short run ..but mighty fast

Based on your encouraging words.. I think I will go ahead with this ...most of the time I've been told forget a glider fuse.. IMO gliders seem to have the sleekest of sleek fuses but narrow, and that could be a problem.. I have emailed Precision Aerobatics for some further info on this modelin regard to width and other thingslike access to the engine, and as far as all the CF gear goes, the price seems pretty good, the wing profile sounds very interesting to me too although I dont really know exactly what they mean by" highly modified pylon profile" but it sounds fast..I know, not very good logic there on my part

bobber.. I would like the curare .40 too, but since Ive been let down or more to the point P...ed off about the whole thing.. I don't really feel like making my own.. and to be honest I was never interested in the speed cup.. thats far too serious for me..not prepared to sink the time or money for that level..and the way I feel , I would gladly let them know what to do with there speed cup![>:][>:][X(]..well I sort of did but thats another story
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Did you try Bit Modellbau and Wega Sunshine for purchasing those Curare/Minare 40 fuses?
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:31 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

thanks j0rrit.. didnt even know they were commerically available....even though Ive been to Bit Modellbau before..how did I miss that[X(]

the picture didn't load from the other site but I get the idea

thanks for passing that on...

now this is really gonna send me broke with all this I now would need 3 , 60 LX engines + pipes
one for the whip X, No. 2 for the glider and No.3 for curare....broke but in Jett heaven
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

HaveBlue,

If you're looking to go the glider fuse route, you might want to scratch build a modified version of one of the old VS line of slope sailplanes. They've got enough room up front for a decent sized tank, especially if you widen the fuse a bit. Scratching one is the only option, as they've been out of production for a long time now and are next to impossible to find. Models were the V-Max, Rotor, Xingu, and Xica. All were *very* fast and were configured in either wingeron or pitcheron. A fixed-wing version using the stock thinned E387 airfoil (I'm pretty sure that's it - either that or a thinned 3027) would really be fast. I was flying w/ a friend in 50+ mph winds on a 300' vertical cliff, and a cop radared the plane in the 140s coming out of a dive.
Here's a link to a pic: http://www.monkeytumble.com/winchdoc...tainium_01.jpg. The Rotor is the one on the far right, and was the smallest of the bunch (62" span if I remember). If you're interested in the plans for the larger one (VMax), ping me and I'll see about getting a copy of my plans for you.

Tim
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:17 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

http://www.martialartsacademy.org/mccomposites.htm

one of the fastest RC ships in the world right now.. might be a good candidate
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Old 05-23-2006, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

The DS planes might work, but would require a bunch of re-engineering. Maybe use the wings. But the fuselage, by the time you get done relocating all of the radio gear and adapting an engine and pipe tunnel - would be nearly wasted money. (the top end 250 mph DS composites are what... $1100 aircraft ?)
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Old 05-23-2006, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

why are you thinking in that plane? A Nemesis F5d or Excite F5d I think would be better airframes for speed than the supersonic (1650mm wigspan is huge!)
The Nemesis has already made 200mph electric [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491932]TheTick Nemesis thread[/link]
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:32 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

yes the wing is a bit big, but I think with the right engine it will do better than the Nemesis, and besides I'm not into electrics yet.. look if I want top speed I could easily forget glow and electric's and just do a hot turbine set up, 574 KPH/ 358 MPH has been done on a turbine..I know in the US they are speed restricted , not sure what the go is here.. so the challenge for me is to use my choice ( with some recommendations from those that know better) and see what I come up with...I couldnt see fitting a good engine , tank and decent servo's in a Nemesis
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:41 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

thats the beauty of this particular model its orientated around speed, and for one, I have 5 kits sitting around because I don't have anywhere to build them... and as for a scratch build ..I don't have the know how to build something like that ..nor do I want to afford the time... I would at least need the parts laser cut for the sake of precision and thats a hassel in itself( for me anyway)
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:23 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

HaveBlue,

That thin wing is a balsa built up and sheeted wing AND it's two piece. That adds up to a marginal strength wing. You are not going to do 150mph+ with that wing. The Nemisis is an all carbon wing and is designed to pull 25G's, we know it is capable of 200mph+ and it can pull a pylon turn like no tomorrow. I've seen many F5B motor glider style planes (like the Supersonic) blow up in mid speed runs due to wings failing....and those were well built composite structures. You need to look at a more serious wing design if you want to go fast. I think you have a good idea in that style of airframe but a balsa wing in this size isn't going to cut it.
You can probably fit a 4-6oz tank in one of these fuselages and mounting the motor is no big deal, but depending on how fast you want to go will dictate what wing is on there. Another airframe that may be better suited is this:
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=1429
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:46 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

This will be a fast plane and a lot of fun.... the fastest electric I have ever seen is a sunracer see http://www.espritmodel.com/l_sunracer.html
when that plane flys at our local club, people tend to gather behind the clubhouse and the shed that houses our lawnmowers because it is obvious that it could penetrate any part of the human body easily. It is a full blown f5 racer and is ridiculously fast .. when it climbs straight up it does not slow down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Read a few posts back... He wants to stuff a .60 gasser in the nose of something and the Sunracer wouldn't fit the gear. BTW, a Sunracer is not a full on F5D frame, it's top speed is about 150-160mph before it turns into confetti. A standard F5D is 175-185mph straight and level.
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification


ORIGINAL: geh3

This will be a fast plane and a lot of fun.... the fastest electric I have ever seen is a sunracer see http://www.espritmodel.com/l_sunracer.html
when that plane flys at our local club, people tend to gather behind the clubhouse and the shed that houses our lawnmowers because it is obvious that it could penetrate any part of the human body easily. It is a full blown f5 racer and is ridiculously fast .. when it climbs straight up it does not slow down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats actually me flying that sunracer on esprit's website. Its a fantastic plane, but only flutter's at 160mph. That is why I built the electric nemesis which is solid at 200+mph. Regardless, neither plane is well suited for nitro power.

Nice thing about these fast electrics, is that you get 6-8 min of runtime with throttle management. But if you have your heart set on nitro power, I would think the F3d ariframes would be the way to go.
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Old 05-24-2006, 06:52 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

the wing is scary as a two piece..but I never said it was going to stay that way... there are many many other choices that could easily be better,along with many set ups that would be far less complex to set ... but it was the combination of....

1) the design
2) the price
3) the level of construction, as all the high strenght components


but please keep those opinions coming ..especially those that are critical to the design

I could give myself less of a headache and just keep it electric but based more on a speed set up
but that just takes all the fun of out trying something this ridiculous![:-]
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:02 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Hey Haveblue,

Teh 2 piece wing in speed ships is starting to come into vogue at teh moment, as the F3d guys are starting to make theirs 2 piece. The reasoning behind it is that when split, the wing & fuse fit into a standard size box for transporting on commercial flights overseas.

They definately are strong enough as the new BBR Evo's are all now 2 part wngs.

Funny I was looking at the PA website the same time as you & thinking about those gliders as well. The old guys keep telling me to slow down, so I thought that a glider may give them a false sense of security.......till the 1st downhill blast by anyway!!!

Tony...
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:39 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

funny thing is I sent an email to PA asking about the width and my intent on sticking a .46 DF engine in it...wonder why I didnt get a reply... this really bums me out here in Aus... the minutue you start talkin speed the frowns come out.....as if it's taboo, your lucky up your way
as it isin my club, I have to wait for everyone to leave before I can get out something that scoots along...
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification


ORIGINAL: crasharama

The 2 piece wing in speed ships is starting to come into vogue at the moment, as the F3d guys are starting to make theirs 2 piece. The reasoning behind it is that when split, the wing & fuse fit into a standard size box for transporting on commercial flights overseas.

They definately are strong enough as the new BBR Evo's are all now 2 part wngs.
It's true they are popular and can be built to go fast, but this wing, from what I've read of people who fly it, is not built for that; lateral strength or torsional.
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Old 05-25-2006, 07:12 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Hi Troy, where did you read about this plane... I have posted requests to hear from flyers /builders about this??/ ... although not unusual , it would be strange to hear that since it seems to be labelled for "speed" applications
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Old 05-25-2006, 11:57 PM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Well there is fast and then there's fast. I think this thing would be safe in the 130mph range, which is what most guys see sporting around and diving from altitude, but it's not going to keep up with a Diamond Dust or anything wild like that. I haven't seen one of these up close yet and the pics on the web are kind of minimalistic...but I am familiar with this style of plane and construction and have seen their capabilities. There is a chance this could be built like a brick s**t house but I doubt those long, thin balsa ailerons would be stiff enough to do some serious speed. So far the few guys who have given flight reports are using pretty light set ups (lipos and geared brushless) so nothing yet to burn the barn doors off anything.... so you may have to be the brave one.
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Old 05-26-2006, 01:18 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

I understand where your coming from..but having said that..

1) a project such as this would entail far more than chucking in a tank and bolting an engine up front...that would simply be reckless

2) I haven't seen the plane up close yet( something I will do before committing to such a project)..If the construction /materials are not up to the task then modifications to strenghten weak areas would be the first order of business..if at all

3) It might be reasonable to consider shortening the ailerons, if not the whole wing itself...again pending inspection

4) that was the whole reason for starting the thread to get opinions all of which I appreciate where positive or negative..I'm a solid believer to explore all the possiblities BEFORE delving in to deep

5) to basically summarize all the above points... it all boils down to saftey..I dont know wether people would consider this as a "radical" project, but to me it somewhat falls into that catergory
the one thing I hope people who are into this side of our hobby will consider is thats as cool as it is to sound "all out" and "crazy".. my foremost thought is to keepthings safe..I would not want the responsibility of causing damage to our hobby by being stupid.
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Old 05-26-2006, 08:06 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

Actually, your inital post and premis were pretty sound. And I think there was some useful input along the way.

Having played a bit with the Speed-400 size pylon racers, I know they can be built pleanty strong, and fly pleanty quick. And the thought often enough crossed my mind about building a glow varient - just a bit bigger. Building something from the ground up at least eliminates any question as to how it was built, and its eventual capabilities.

Perhaps when time permits, that will make an interesting project.

Bob
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Old 05-26-2006, 11:25 AM
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Default RE: challenging speed plane modification

I'm with ya'... I was thinking that since you were looking for an ARF airframe and didn't want to do a lot of mods, you'd want a ready to go airframe...just bolt the stuff in and go for it. You obviously have your head screwed on tight and are willing to take the precautions to make something safe and capable.

I think your project is interesting and I have done a similar task, albeit on a smaller scale and with less horsepower. I have been flying F5D pylon for about 10-12 years and helped a buddy of mine convert one of my airframes from electric to nitro. We were curious to see how fast it would go since it was more aerodynamic than anything I had ever seen in the nitro scene (which is what probably caught your eye with the Supersonic). The airframe in conventional form would seem appropriate for a 1/2A motor...we wanted to stick an O.S. .15 on 20%. The modifications were really easy and the plane turned out really light..probably half the weight of my race ready set up with 7 Sub-C nicads and brushless motor. Aside from having to repaint the plane with some fuel proof paint, it was a pretty quick and painless conversion. We flew it and it was zippy but about 40mph slower than my electric set up. Granted, my e-powered set up at that time was probably more like a screaming .32 nitro equivelant. But it was fast enough for my friend and the lower weight made it a bit more safe for landings. My buddy moved and actually gave me back the airframe. I wanted to try it again with a better motor combo to see if I could get some serious speed, but motors in that size are not always easy to find. My ideal motor would have been one of the Shurkin .049's with tuned pipe which spin a 4" prop at around 40,000RPM. Another alternative would have been one of the Enya .15 tuned pipe variants but those are not around anymore. My motivation is lacking because my current electric set ups are almost as fast as a Nitro F3D so it would take a lot of tuning and cash to get the Nitro conversion airframe to match.

This is the airframe but not the specific converted plane: This one's in your colors, too
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