Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

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Old 06-22-2006, 06:36 AM
  #1  
redgiki
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Default Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

I recently bought a Great Planes Patriot 40 used from a friend. He flew it very much like a sport flyer, with a big, lower-pitched prop. I'm running an OS .46AX, 9x7 prop at 16,000 RPM. She's starting to cook along pretty quickly; next step is a tuned pipe, I think. I've experimented with quite a few different prop and fuel combinations trying to eke more speed out of the airframe and engine, and although I don't have a radar gun, subjectively she's "feeling" much faster than when I bought her.

However, I've noticed that at these higher speeds, the tail on the bird begins to act funny. Coming out of a full-throttle dive, the tail of the bird has a tendency to yaw back and forth a little. It's not a huge issue, and those who have watched it don't generally see it, but it's weird enough that I cut a flying day short to bring it home and investigate. I couldn't find any problems with incidence or alignment in a check of the aircraft, all the control surfaces seemed sound with no gaps, and I didn't figure out why she's doing it.

Any idea why the tail will yaw back and forth slightly at high speed? Have you seen this behavior before?
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:07 AM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

You might have some flex or play in the rudder pushrod or torque arm on the
rudder.

FBD.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

**Bump**

Dave hit it already-

Have you considered a Jett-50 or 60LX for the bird? You can also find a YS-45 for a reasonable price also and it is much more powerful than the 46AX.

Just a thought- I have flown the Patriot with a 46 like the AX and could not believe the performance increase with the Jett.
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:15 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Took her out again today using a new transmitter and an ounce less lead in the tail, and she tracked straighter. Very weird. I'd like to hook up a video camera onboard one of these days and watch what my surfaces are actually doing in flight...

I considered the Jett 50, and probably will upgrade to that in the future. The .46AX with a Tower muffler is only putting out around 14,000 RPM richened out from peak with a 10x7 prop. With a 9x7, it's ripping along at 16,000 rich, but my takeoff rolls are somewhere around 400+ feet! Several people at the field commented that my rollouts were very long; I replaced the 9x7 with a 10x7, and that brought the rolls way down to normal-looking takeoffs and much better climbs without seeming to take much off the top speed. I'm glad to be taking off from a dry lake bed, because I had a half-dozen fine flights on the 9x7, and if I'd been down at the model airport I'd have run out of runway on the first try!

It's getting fairly fast, but definitely not where I want it yet It's my fastest airplane so far, but I'm suspecting that at an AUW, sans fuel, of 6lb, 8oz, my Patriot may be a bit too porky to set any speed records any time soon. For now, it's fast enough to keep me on my toes and draw surprised looks at the field. In a few months when I've saved another $300, I may drop that on the Jett .50 and put my AX into another project... something that needs more of a stump-puller and less of a speed setup.

(Note: I'm at 5,000 feet. I understand that a .46AX with a 9x7 will pull a 6-lb plane just fine at sea level, but it just doesn't have the thrust to get airborne quickly way up here.)

If you were to recommend another propjet that could easily exceed 100MPH in a .40 size, what would it be? To really get the speed up there, do I need to look at a ducted fan setup? Or maybe just a brand-new Patriot 40 kit I build myself (if i can find one these days...) with the inlets left off and the weight dramatically reduced... Or perhaps just this motor upgrade?

If there's any motor with a substantial weight savings up front, that will probably be the winner. Trying to get the CG right on this bird is a chore involving a lot of lead in the tail...
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Old 06-25-2006, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

The patriot 40 will almost always be nose heavy... I don't do speed guesses but the Jett-50 in the patriot is a WHOLE other ballgame! Not even similar in performance or speed.

The Patriot is one of the sleeker Prop-Jets the F-20 Cermark/Kangke/ Sportsman Aviation etc. have those big fake intakes and fixed gear usually so no help there- The Weston Magnum is much faster than the Patriot but is a hand launch deal with the modified West (Webra) 50 up front turning an 8x8 apc 19k+

An old SIG Kougar/Kobra/King Kobra would be fast but again the Patriot is more slippery there...
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Old 06-25-2006, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Nose heavy prop jets fly just fine, within reason of course. Nose heavy
planes increase the stall speed. Acrobatic planes need to be balanced
properly to do all the neat flat spins, ect.

Keep in mind....when a properly "balanced" plane is filled with fuel, it gets
nose heavy as heck....and flies just fine....just don't expect to do any
"blenders" or inverted flat spins with your prop jet.

What happens to a properly balanced plane when you add 12 ozs of fuel ?

FBD.
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Old 06-26-2006, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

I've been told in the last few flights of my Jett 50 powered patriot that I have a flutter issue. I'm not hearing it and I know what it sounds like. My buddy says he's hearing it slightly when coming out of a dive and doing a low flyby. My rudder has a fair amount of free play but due to the internal pushrod/torque rod setup, I don't see any way to minimize it other than to disconnect the rudder and try and run an external setup. I also added some more weight to the tail to get it to rotate a little faster off of grass and am still close to the suggested CG. For level flight I have some up elevator trimmed in. Not sure if my wing incidence is off so I might check that also. Anyone else experience these conditions?

Marty
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:08 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Iron on film over open areas can produce a snare drum sound at high speeds. Slight flutter will cause your linkage rods to wear out the servo arms, back out screws, etc. I would give the plane a complete control system stress test, looking for play and slop, with the power on the servos and at various deflections. You don't get many chances to look for flutter trouble, most of the time all you have time for is to get out the trash bag.
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Old 06-26-2006, 10:47 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Combatpigg knows what he is taling about--- I really enjoy using rudder on the Pat since it will knife edge if balanced properly. The good news is Rudder flutter will not cause a crash, just a wiggly ride. Ail or Elev. and you got problems- [X(]
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Old 06-26-2006, 11:37 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

One way to fix your issue might be to switch to a pull-pull system and cover your hinge lines with monokote. This is the way my Patriot is and i have never had an issue this way.

Good luck
Darion
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Old 06-26-2006, 11:38 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Rudder flutter will not cause a crash
Try telling that to the victims of the Airbus that developed flutter in it's rudder.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:41 AM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: redgiki

I recently bought a Great Planes Patriot 40 used from a friend. He flew it very much like a sport flyer, with a big, lower-pitched prop. I'm running an OS .46AX, 9x7 prop at 16,000 RPM. She's starting to cook along pretty quickly; next step is a tuned pipe, I think. I've experimented with quite a few different prop and fuel combinations trying to eke more speed out of the airframe and engine, and although I don't have a radar gun, subjectively she's "feeling" much faster than when I bought her.

However, I've noticed that at these higher speeds, the tail on the bird begins to act funny. Coming out of a full-throttle dive, the tail of the bird has a tendency to yaw back and forth a little. It's not a huge issue, and those who have watched it don't generally see it, but it's weird enough that I cut a flying day short to bring it home and investigate. I couldn't find any problems with incidence or alignment in a check of the aircraft, all the control surfaces seemed sound with no gaps, and I didn't figure out why she's doing it.

Any idea why the tail will yaw back and forth slightly at high speed? Have you seen this behavior before?

Do you have retracts installed? My first Patriot flew terrible without them...second one I built with them in and its a huge difference. Also I'd run a 11x7 on the .46AX i've gotten awesome speed out of it with a tuned pipe on....9x7 is just too small out here you'll have takeoff issue's and need to land at SLC International she'll come in so hot. I've also seen some have tail issue's cause the wing saddles wheren't sanded right and had gaps in them...toss some foam in if thats the issue. Rudder flutter is probably just control rod flex...strong rods can end that or maybe your expo's sensative and slight stick is moving the rudder? Where on the Salt Flats do ya go fly? I come out that way few times a month and fly my f-16...btw join [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_530698/tm.htm]revvers[/link] Maybe we can get enough in Utah and hit the lake and have some speed fun
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:42 AM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Airbus vs Patriot RC model.... apples and oranges

The rudder on the Patriot is tiny and barely effective- get serious---
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Old 06-30-2006, 09:04 AM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: badz

Do you have retracts installed?
Yep! I got this plane third-hand from my buddy, and it has Hobbico
retracts. I need to replace the nose gear, as it's pretty hammered.
The original owner had a tuned pipe and a lighter motor, but my buddy
ran a .52 in the nose, and the CG was about 2 inches in front of the
factory recommendation.

It flew, but the rolls weren't axial, and he was always heavy on the
nose on landing...

Also I'd run a 11x7 on the .46AX i've gotten awesome speed out of
it with a tuned pipe on....
Really? 11x7? Man, that's not much ground clearance. I tried a 11x6,
and was disappointed with the RPMS I could squeak out of it. Then
again, I'm now running a 10x7, and am satisfied with the performance, so
if a tuned pipe gave me more thrust, that would be cool.

9x7 is just too small out here you'll have takeoff issue's and
need to land at SLC International she'll come in so hot.
Yeah, I got a lot of comments on it when running a 9x7. Things to the
effect of "If that takeoff roll was any longer, you'd need a full-scale
runway", or "Are you holding full down elevator on that thing?". A
combination of flaperons and going to a 10x7 from the 9x7 made it come
down into satisfactory 300-foot rollouts.

Rudder flutter is probably just control rod flex...
Yeah, the "final solution" on this was to reduce the throw on my rudder.
It had GOBS, way more than spec. Cutting the throw pretty much in half
gives me more than enough authority for what I want to do with it, and
the tail wiggle is totally gone now.

Where on the Salt Flats do ya go fly? I come out that way few
times a month and fly my f-16...
Out at "Grantsville #2" (also called Mystway), out past the Chemical
Lime plant. I also fly from the old, closed Tooele City Municipal
Airport. 5000' runway, chopped up into little 900' sections by former
mayor Charlie Roberts. Perfect for models, except that pilots from
Bolinder Field in Erda frequently buzz the runway.

Send me a PM! Let's go fly our barn-burners on the same day sometime.
I usually do Saturday or Sunday mornings, along with a weekday or two.
I work nights, so I can do that Wednesday mornings, the field's
generally unoccupied (don't know why, it just is), so I often do maidens
and heavy pattern practice on that day so I can burn tank after tank of
fuel.

btw join [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_530698/tm.htm]revvers[/link] Maybe we can get enough in Utah and hit the lake and have some speed fun
That would rock! The 200MPH speed limit, as you probably know, only
applies to turbines...

Look for me some time. I'm the guy that drives the little Honda Insight hybrid, and manages to pack 4-5 planes in it... Or send me a PM, and let's arrange a time to practice high-speed tennis matches (Split-S, flyby, vertical pullout, Cuban Eight, flyby, vertical pullout...)

--
Matt B.
- - - -
Thought for the moment:
What the world *really* needs is a good Automatic Bicycle Sharpener.
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Old 06-30-2006, 09:22 AM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Iron on film over open areas can produce a snare drum sound at high speeds.
Amen to that one! I actually had a hole in the wing of my Patriot that I hadn't noticed at one point, and coming out of a dive, it just peeled back on me. I was very lucky to get the plane down intact.

Had a few dozen flights since then without incident, but still, AUGH! It's a unique sound to hear a Monokoted wing rip open at 70+MPH.
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Old 06-30-2006, 04:23 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Well that guy above is the only person I have EVER HEARD who uses an 11x7 on a Patriot. That is WAY too big for any serious speed-

The take-off roll may be long but what is the goal? If you use a Jett-50 the roll will be short and the vertical with a 9x9 APC will be unlimited.
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Old 06-30-2006, 07:57 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: Razor-RCU
The take-off roll may be long but what is the goal? If you use a Jett-50 the roll will be short and the vertical with a 9x9 APC will be unlimited.
Wait, are you saying that a 9x9 APC on a Jett-50 generates more than 7 lbs of thrust? That would be darn impressive, if so. On my 10x7, with a full tank loops can be very tall (once I have a head of steam going), but nowhere near unlimited vertical on my OS .46ax.

My AUW is 6 lbs, 15 ounces. A little porky for a bird rated at 5lbs, 8oz, but I had to add 12 oz of lead to the tail to get the CG to spec. With a full tank, the bird is going to clock in darn near 8 lbs. If a Jett-50 can lift 7lbs straight up with a 9x9 at the speed it's spinning, that would be amazing.
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Old 06-30-2006, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

redgiki- Dunno about thrust tests and what have you... But I have MANY, MANY flights on more than 1 Patriot with Jett-50's all spinning 9x9 APC. I pull vertical after a long level pass and it is a speck pretty quick. The vertical between the 9x9 and 9x8 seems the same to me.. I do not know what my Pats have weighed (I am in denial) but they were stout- One with Spring-Air retracts the other with Mechanicals. Same performance

The difference between my Jett powered patriots and something like a TT Pro-46 or OS-46SF/FX/AX is VERYT noticeable. I have also flown them with the Webra-50GT and OS-50SX (9x8 APC) and those fly great but again pretty big difference! The YS-45 if piped correctly with 10x8APC could probably get close (I could not believe it the first time a flew with the Jett-50) [X(]

Most experts like Bob27 (I am not one) will recommend a 9x8 on the Sport Jett-50, or 10x7 even but I found the sweet spot with a 9x9APC, I am at sea level so whatever that means then...

Just my experience-- I cannot say enough about the patriot airframe and the Jett engines- Now I need to get a Jett-60LX, maybe I can finance one OAC?

Cheers!
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Old 07-01-2006, 01:20 AM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed


ORIGINAL: Razor-RCU

Well that guy above is the only person I have EVER HEARD who uses an 11x7 on a Patriot. That is WAY too big for any serious speed-

The take-off roll may be long but what is the goal? If you use a Jett-50 the roll will be short and the vertical with a 9x9 APC will be unlimited.
You may be right at 1000-2000ft above sea level but we're over 4000ft above and a 9x9 is just making a plane into a rc car that'll eventually leave the ground after 400+ foot roll out, that 9x9 won't even keep the plane in the air here....this altitude is killer for prop selections specially running 9's...theres just not enough thrust behind them too pull the plane off the ground...its a reason you don't see many ducted fans out here cause the altitude just kills their ability...I flew my patriot many times with a 11x7 it performed well.

redgiki...I'll get ahold of ya after the holiday...heading out early tomorrow for some camping...there's about 10 of us from Davis County that head down and fly the flats....we'll hook up and do some zooming
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Old 07-01-2006, 03:47 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: badz
You may be right at 1000-2000ft above sea level but we're over 4000ft above and a 9x9 is just making a plane into a rc car...
Quite right. Static pull on a 9x7 @ 15000 RPM is almost exactly 4 lbs even. A 9x9APC @ 12,500 (which is stalled when the plane is stationary, of course,) is only 3lbs 6 oz. Static thrust on the 10x7 Top Flite was 5lbs 4 oz, and on the 10x8 APC is 5lbs, 8 oz.

Weight of the bird is 6lbs 15 oz. So close to 7 lbs, I could spit on it and make it 7

(I switched mufflers, as I got too many complaints from other flyers about the noise of my previous one. The new muffler cuts almost 1,000 RPM off my top speed, but is so so so much quieter that I'm thinking it may be worth it...)

So not unlimited vertical even on a 10x8APC, but getting much closer! It's definitely the altitude... Where I live in Tooele City is even 700 feet higher than the lake (The lake is 4200', Tooele City is 4900'), and I have to adjust my needles when I get down to the flats. My tach shows a 100-200RPM improvement at the lake vs. my house even!

Switching to the 10x8 APC from the Top Flite woody made a surprisingly large difference in volume, too! The APC is enormously quieter. A 10" prop hauls the plane around just fine, so I think I'm going to try out a 10x10 and 10x9 next, to see if they will drive me even faster without bogging the motor. On my newer, slower muffler, I have a 90MPH pitch speed still... with luck, I'll be able to hit about 100MPH straight and level with it. Not a serious burner, but not bad...

I think I *could* get unlimited vertical and similar pitch speed with an 11x7 APC and the .46AX. Can't get nearly there with an 11x7 Top Flite, so I'm waiting on my hobby store to get those APCs in stock...

redgiki...I'll get ahold of ya after the holiday...heading out early tomorrow for some camping...there's about 10 of us from Davis County that head down and fly the flats....we'll hook up and do some zooming
Sounds great, look forward to hearing from you. I'll be out testing props at Grantsville #2 tomorrow (Sunday morning), so see you when you get back from camping.
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Old 07-02-2006, 12:27 AM
  #21  
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

The problem is not the altitude it is using an AX- Great engine but not enough "oomph" for the Patriot. Get a Jett-50 and try some different props.
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Old 07-03-2006, 08:34 PM
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: Razor-RCU

The problem is not the altitude it is using an AX
Right, when I was saying "it's definitely the altitude" I was referring to the difference in performance between an AX at sea level, and an AX at 4200 feet.

And I'm saving for the Jett. I don't think the 50 will do what I want, though... the 60L with a regular Sport Jett muffler is probably the ticket. It seems to be the way everybody around here gets around the altitude: put a bigger motor on, swinging a little bigger prop than usual. If the plane flies well at sea level on a .40, go for a .46. If it will go unlimited vertical with a .52 at sea level, put on a .60. That kind of thing.

Wrote Dub Jett about my quandary, and going with the 60L rather than the 50 was his recommendation to have comparable performance.

In other news today, I flew my Patriot yesterday, and finally somebody at the field recognized it. "Your Patriot flies well," he said, "and you do a good job on the sticks. But, is it just me, or is yours a whole lot slower than most other Patriots?"

I almost cried
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Old 07-03-2006, 11:28 PM
  #23  
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

Just wait till he sees it with a Jett on it and then ask "WOW is that the same plane"[X(]

It's probably just me talking but wasn't the 46 AX made for sport flying. I just know that an old expiernced guy at the field told me the AX dosn't like to be hauled around at warp speeds. Yet again probably just me talking. I don't perticularly love O.S engines. The only O.S i have is a .15 la for gnat combat and thats because thats all thats aloud! FSR's and FP's are good engines though.

Do you have any pics???
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Old 07-04-2006, 08:01 AM
  #24  
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

ORIGINAL: Crash-D
It's probably just me talking but wasn't the 46 AX made for sport
flying.
Yes. It's supposed to be a "high performance" version of the OS .46 ABL
engine. Fact is, it's really not much higher performance... maybe
300-500 RPM.

I just know that an old expiernced guy at the field told me the
AX dosn't like to be hauled around at warp speeds.
Yes, apparently it can get on step using a tuned pipe for fairly fast
sport speeds, but not pylon-racing speeds. For that, you need the right
engine, as I'm learning This was my first nitro plane; I've only
flown electrics, and am learning more daily. She still has a lot to
teach me before I install my hotrod motor..

Do you have any pics???
Unfortunately, not yet. I keep intending to break out the camera for my
revvers membership application, and keep forgetting

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Old 07-04-2006, 03:10 PM
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Crash-D
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Default RE: Patriot 40 tail wiggle at speed

OK so i guess i wasnt completly babbling thats good to hear!

I still need some better pics if i get some i'll post them.


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