Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Patriot related

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Old 12-18-2006, 03:42 PM
  #1  
vasek
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Default Patriot related

hello,

i'm ready to order a jett SJ .50 for a Patriot (40) and i would like to order other accessories at the same time-

bubbleles tank, backplate engine mount. I have 2 questions regarding these items:

1) if bubbleless tank is placed on the CG does it need a hopper tank? if yes wouldn't the hopper "undo" the bubbleless fuel delivery?

2) which backlplate mount would fit the Partiot firewall better; ROUND or SQUARE?

here's the link (scroll dn)

http://www.jettengineering.com/accy/accy.html

V.
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:07 PM
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bob27s
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Default RE: Patriot related

Round backplate mount will fit, but you will have to airframe mount the needle valve (or get an exhaust mounted version). Also engine/spinner/cowl spacing may be a little tricky to adjust.

I do not recommend a hopper tank with a bubble tank. No way to get all of the air out of it. You can configure two bubble tanks in parallel though (yes, it works well).

No need to put the tank on the CG either unless it is just to find some room to install it. Even so, with a bubble tank, you can draw about 25% further than you can with a standard fuel tank.
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:02 PM
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Razor-RCU
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Default RE: Patriot related

Got any pics?

My Patriot has NO ENGINE up front... My Rebuilt Jett-50 finally succumbed to the rigors of my tuning.

Jett-60LX would be next, when I am able to finance one anyway
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:51 PM
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vasek
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Default RE: Patriot related

Bob,

Yes the CG location 4 the tank is due to size restriction up front (retracts) so i'm not sure even the "round" 8 oz would fit in there[]

so i was going for the 12 on the CG...

What sizes do you recommend?

Would a 4 oz standard (fitted up front) combined with a 8oz on CG do the job ?

In a parallel setup, would the the 4oz empty as well or stay full as in a hopper setup?

The purpose of the backplate mount was to eliminate the "engine mount in the pointy nose problem", but i just might put a 2" spinner & sand the nose-cone to the larger dia. Would Dub's 2" spinner look right on the Patriot? if not which one of Dub's spinners would look the best...?


Last question, Dub's alum engine mounts come pre-tapped right? would it fit in the P. nose? if yes, i'm getting one


Thanks for the advice,
V.
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:33 AM
  #5  
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Default RE: Patriot related

you connect the fuel feed to the needle to a Tee - and the muffler pressures to a Tee fitting.

Both are in parallel... one does not feed the other. No difference which one empties first.

But no, it will not function like a header tank does. On the patriot, you will not really need the header tank if you use a bubble tank, and move the tank aft.

Look at central hobbies' website. Some of the Tetra bubble tanks may fit the available space a bit better.

Yes, the engine mounts are pre-drilled and tapped for the engines. Simply specify the engine.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:55 PM
  #6  
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Default RE: Patriot related

VASEK, I am glad you brought this up. I have a Patriot and have been looking for a way to extend the flight time and I don't even use the retracts. The fuel tank I have is like 10 or 12 oz
and i get decent flight times but one thing is for sure you don't want this bird to run out of fuel. The Patriot will head at the ground like a Hawk after a field mouse. The way Bob explains it you can use two tanks and "Y" adapters with bubbless tanks. I think that would work if you could fit the slim one up in the fuse above the wing. The nose is already too heavy to worry with trying to fit it in the fuel bay. My Patriot is nose heavy now with a 46 and normal tank. It makes it want to nose down in turns. I just don't want to add the lead in the tail. Let us know how you come out with this because this is probablly a common problem.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:54 PM
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Default RE: Patriot related

Vasek,

This is what I will give a try:

As I began to repair my 2 years ago badly wrecked Patriot .40, I early decided to exchange the Rossi .53 I flew it with, with the Jett .90LX[>:] its only 4 oz's heavier than the rossi !
Firewall is moved backwards 1,75". If moved more than that, the nose wheel would hit F2.

The battery will be moved from radio bay to the tail cone to reduce amount of lead necessary.

I went with the round back plate mount, had to rotate engine slightly on F1 in order to get the blind nuts right.

No space found on F1 for NVA,obviously, so it went backwards on the fuse side.

This engine might burn some fuel, so the tank in front is Jett bubless 8 oz std. and as it is installed with bottom towards the nose (I've heard this is OK!) this gives plenty of space for the Eurokit air operated retracted 2,25" wheel! The other tank in wing bay is a 12 oz. 20 oz all together! How about that?!

The tanks will be plumbed parallelly as described in post above. I will test this tank setup on the bench asap, to see how it works and if they can be fueled in parallell or one by one.

Henrik
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:47 PM
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vasek
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Default RE: Patriot related

Thanks for the info Bob!

Henrik, yeah baby! EXACTLY what I was looking for

I will go for the same setup, may even opt for a .60 LX instead of the SJ .50 (i like the looks of the gold muffler better than the red [>:])

PLASE let me know how the 2 bubble tanks work out & I will be waiting for the flight report with that .90 LX in the nose....

BTW what spinner did you get (size & make)? (looks good)

AND PLEASE post some updates on your progress !!!!!!! (this is getting interesting)

Cheers,
V.
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:02 PM
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Razor-RCU
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Default RE: Patriot related

Geesh! Stop it! I have my Patriot hangin' in the shop with nothing worthy to put in it--- []

I love my K&B-48 with the Ultrathrust Muffler
I love the OS-50SX I just got (Phenom)
I love my West-50 but an 8x8 on a Patriot? Nope...

But neither are worthy of the Patriot load... After flying all these years with Jett-50 power up front I cannot in good conscience put anything in < than a Jett-50, preferrably the 60LX (the 90 is awesome!). This is the first time I have been without a Patriot since I think 2002...[X(][&o]

I am SUPER motivated by your posts though!

Methanolover, here is the "before" now it is up to you to post the "after"
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:59 AM
  #10  
Strykaas
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Default RE: Patriot related

Great Methanolover !

This may be a dumb question but what are these two small white wheels around the front wheel bay [sm=confused.gif]
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:00 PM
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Methanolover
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Default RE: Patriot related

Vasek, I'm glad you likes this setup! Hopefully it will work. I have a .60 LX too that was dedicated to this plane but then I decided it would go perfectly into a ME 163 Komet I got my hands on. (coming proj.) So what was left on the shelf was this .90

The spinner in pic is a cheap Chineese 2,25" , on the box: "AP-spinners" Maby would better had been a 2,5" to mate fuse nicer but that also means extra weight. Thinking of a plastic spinner with a light alu backplate, Tyone/Texson which is a full oz lighter!! I'll get one, take a good look at it to see if it's worthy a Jett. ( balance and cone's fastening to backplate etc.)

Our grass field is mostly frozen and/or snowy this time of year so expect no flightreport yet... Very bad for these small wheels you know. But the two tank setup will be reported in a few days! Can't wait to fire that engine up and listen to it's song.

Yes ,I will gladly report the progresses of this Patriot rebirth.

Razor, that was VERY before.... When I first got to the crashed Patriot and saw the remains , I emediately yelled for a shrink or a bottle, and a big plastic bag.
Lying on the shelf for over 2 years, now and then giving me pleasant memory flashes, but also reminding me of what I have to do; restore it! The level of damage just decides how long it will take for me to come to the same conclution every time; It's easier to make the repairs than building a new one!!
Luckily I have a complete Patriot kit on the attic, very handy when making new spars, formers and a new canopy. The fuse sides was great to have when aligning the fuse parts over the wing.

Strykaas, those plastic wheels was what I found at the time (from a curtain mechanism) to route the wires for the steerable nose wheel. I will look for something neater. take a trip to my local fishing shop? Now, did you ever build that J35 Draken??????? Mine is still alive!

BR Henrik #28
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:28 AM
  #12  
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Default RE: Patriot related

Sweet !!!!

That setup should work out pretty well. Just use a little patience when evacuationg and fueling the tanks... make sure you get the air out.

Man is that thing gonna haul the mail !! (10x10 prop )

Can't wait to hear about flight performance [&:]

Re-name this particular plane the "Patriot - Phoenix" Definately a bird risen from the ashes.....
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:42 AM
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Default RE: Patriot related

Hey Razor that is a cool looking Patriot with the chrome, I have thought about putting chrome trim on before before but have never done it, should be good for visibility.
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:21 AM
  #14  
vasek
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Default RE: Patriot related

Henrik, the nose cone (around the engine) is that 2 hollowed balsa blocks?

You're right about the plastic spinner & alum backpate, its going to save a lot of "tail lead" [8D]

can't wait for the engine / fuel tanks test report!

Cheers,

V.

(Merry Christmas to all)
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:57 PM
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Razor-RCU
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Default RE: Patriot related

Yeah that is Methanolover's Patriot beofre it went it apparently... I have a pretty large collection of Patriot pics
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Old 12-22-2006, 05:10 PM
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Methanolover
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Default RE: Patriot related

Patriot-Phoenix[sm=devious.gif]
10*10 Yes.
Expect no flightreport before April. Frozen grassfield will kill U/C &/OR APC prop.... Will need about a month in shop to finish. Let's pray for: No snow,and for the season unusual high temperatures.

Fuse nose is .5" triangular balsa in corners, and .25" balsa in top, bottom and side, 1/8 ply spinner ring, just as original plan.

Motor now on test stand with the tanks and a 10*7 apc. Before I go to sleep I will once again carefully study the instruction sheet for the Jett bubbless tanker.
Report published within 48hrs: estimated to 80%

Monocote Chrome is VERY unforgiving. Imperfections visible within 10 feet. Tack clothe is highly recommended prior covering. In the skye: awesome!!

MC every brother!!

H#28
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Old 12-23-2006, 12:31 PM
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Methanolover
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Default RE: Patriot related

[sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]

Worked perfect on the bench! Im glad I tested the bubless tanks here, so I got to understand the fueling procedure, a tanker is a must as you need to evacuate tanks before fueling.
The system worked as one tank. Towards the end the engine leaned a bit, it didn't just ran out of fuel and stopped. So I stopped it manually. That was after nearly 8 minutes!!! full throttle, rich setting at high RPM (forgot tachom. at home) and quite a lot of smoke. So bob27 was right when telling me 2 0z/min.

Oh, the sound??? [sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

H
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:24 AM
  #18  
vasek
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Default RE: Patriot related

Henrik, that's GREAT news!

I just got to see your post today[&o] although i have a subscription to this thread i never got the "new reply" posting in the Subscribed Thread Activity column.... it happens sometimes to my threads & don't know why

And since I was waiting for your replay prior to ordering.... i decided to check the thread because i want to order today>and volia

so i'm glad it worked! BRAVA!

I'm getting the 6oz up front, 12oz near the CG, roung engine backplate mount & the LX 60

Am counting on 10 min flight with that setup, is it reasonable to expect that? (if i have to i will go with the 8oz up front like you)

Thanks again for your report!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

V.
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Old 02-11-2007, 12:34 PM
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Methanolover
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Default RE: Patriot related

Vasek,
Too bad you did not saw it until today[:@]
My guess is that you'll get ten minutes on 18 oz My .90 gets 8,5 min on rich setting, 16.000, peak was 16.900 on a 10x7 running in prop.

http://www.rcuvideos.com/view_video....319ab7d9f2cfa5

My Pat. is now ready for covering, and setting up my new radio: Spektrum DX7!!!

Henrik
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Old 02-11-2007, 01:06 PM
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Default RE: Patriot related

I've been asked to share my JATO unit set-up on my Patriots. I am writing an article on this but figured I would share this with this forum.
It's a very simple set-up. I have re-drawn the schematic but using it in the article. Am including the first rough draft hand drawing I drew when I
first thought of it.
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Old 02-11-2007, 01:31 PM
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vasek
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Default RE: Patriot related

Hey nice sound!!!

I can still change it to 8 oz when i confirm the shipping

I'll ask Dub about the flight time of the 60 LX on 18 & 20 oz

V.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:24 PM
  #22  
vasek
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Default RE: Patriot related

Henrik, would you have a schematic drawing (a sketch) of the hookup? it's hard to see from the pic.

& what is the procedure to fill & empty the twin tanks?

Thanks,
V.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:41 PM
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Methanolover
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Default RE: Patriot related

Well, I can make an ugly drawing, but it really isn't necessary,,,

This is what you'll do:

1, take both feed-lines from the tanks and connect them to a tee. From this tee, connect a fuel-line to the needle valve.
2, take both pressure-lines from the tanks and connect to another tee. From this tee you connect a fuel-line to the muffler.

You have now plumbed them parallelly!

When filling them up:

1, Draw fuel into the tanker to about 3/4 full
2, Connect tanker to the fuel-line that goes from tee to needle valve
3, First, suck air out of tanks by pulling on the tanker (reason for why to fill only 3/4!) , held above tanks and with Jett-tanker outlet downwards!!! When all of the air is out , moved to top of tanker ,it is time to press and fill the system.
4, You will need to refill the tanker as it doesn't contain all the fuel ... and as you have had to disconnect the tanker ,some air have gone in,,,you will have to pull it out before filling.
Tip: Get that pair of pliers doctors use, to clamp fuel-line before disconnecting tanker.

B sure to carefully read Dub Jett's manual on Jett's homepage!!! (If I missed something) Manual also tells how hard to pull and press, so that tanks not are destroyed!!!!

Do not forget the ear caps!

HT
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:32 PM
  #24  
bob27s
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Default RE: Patriot related

I added a few comments.... adjustments... recommendations..

Bob


ORIGINAL: Methanolover

Well, I can make an ugly drawing, but it really isn't necessary,,,

This is what you'll do:

1, take both feed-lines from the tanks and connect them to a tee. From this tee, connect a fuel-line to the needle valve.
2, take both pressure-lines from the tanks and connect to another tee. From this tee you connect a fuel-line to the muffler.

You have now plumbed them parallelly!

When filling them up:

1 - Connect tanker to the fuel-line that goes to the tee and to the fuel tanks (feed line to the needle valve). Suck all of the air out of tanks by pulling on the tanker , held above tanks and with Jett-tanker outlet downwards!!! You may have to do this twice. You will feel resistance/suction. When all of the air is out , clamp the fuel tank line with hemostats. Remove the tanker from the fuel line.

2A, Draw fuel into the tanker from your fuel jug to about 3/4 full (be sure to use a fuel filter)

2B, Connect tanker to the fuel-line that goes to the tee and to the fuel tanks. It is time to press and fill the system.

3A - First, suck air out of tanks by pulling on the tanker (yes, do it again at this point - reason for why to fill only 3/4!) , tanker held above tanks and with Jett-tanker outlet pointed downwards!!! Any remaining air can be seen bubbling to the top. When all of the air is out , press slowly on the tanker plunger to fill the tank. Stop before all of the fuel is gone from the tanker (do not press until empty)

3B For larger fuel systems, after the first tanker load is in, CLAMP OFF the tank fuel line using hemostats or a similar device. Remove the tanker fill line.

4, You will need to refill the tanker as it now 99% empty ... and as you have had to disconnect the tanker you must avoid any air going in,,(per clamp/hemostats in 3B)
Tip: Get that pair of pliers doctors use (hemostats), to clamp fuel-line before disconnecting tanker.

5. When the tank is full (resistance is felt and the plunger stops, again clamp off the fuel tank line, slightly withdraw the plunger in the tanker (to de-pressurise things a bit), and remove the tanker. Connect the feed line to the needle valve inlet. I recommend leaving the hemostats on until just about ready to start the engine.

B sure to carefully read Dub Jett's manual on Jett's homepage!!! (If I missed something) Manual also tells how hard to pull and press, so that tanks not are destroyed!!!!

Yes, when filling the tank, you will feel the fuel plunger stop when the tank is full. Do not continue to push - this is not a pressurized fuel system. Also, never use a mechanical or electric pump - or you risk rupturing the bladder within the tank.

Do not forget the ear caps!

HT
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:24 PM
  #25  
vasek
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Location: Prague, CZECH REPUBLIC
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Default RE: Patriot related

thanks guys!
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