Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

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Old 01-13-2007, 01:06 PM
  #1  
NikolayTT
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Default Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Dear Fellows,
One can observe all kind of "strange" things like Propeller Driven Scale Plane which is
faster than Pilon Racer, even Ducted Fan Jet, and even faster than ordinary Turbine
Jet Plane, of course if attend enough Air shows in the RC World, isn't it. Then I have
a few well "disturbing" questions, maybe you would like to help me finding the
answers for some of them:
1. What is the pleasure of flying slow jet (ducted or turbine) jet wit the geometry
of the wings exclusively designed for speed far above 400 km/h; isn't it even more
than strange ? Obviously there is a pleasure and big bills too, but the flying quality
looks achievable with .46 trainer ... almost and with 10x less money... [:-]
well a bit of overstatement but I guess you get my point anyway.
2. How do you feel if a nicely looking nowadays RC Scale plane, for example like
Lancair, or similar has a speed above 200 km/h and it is even faster than Pilon racer
of course with the appropriate engine & propeller ? In fact flying Pilon Racers with the
standard .40 engine looks Very Similar to Control Line Airplane Flying, but the price
is again something like 10x higher than good old time Line Controlled plane ... [8D]

Surely I am building something like that Lancair with excessive power classic
piston engine and I wander if I could get some answers prior I go and fly it.

Thanks in advance for reading and eventually helping with some answers.

Best Regards,
Nikolay
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Old 01-13-2007, 03:23 PM
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buddude8
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

[sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

im kinda lost on what you want to hear. but i think it boils down to "to each their own" everybody has something different that gets thier heart pumping. I personally love watching a scale rc jet do a low pass low speed fly by.

ken
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:04 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

1. Are you asking why folks would spend thousands of dollars to go as fast as a 150 dollar airplane? Certainly the style of plane flying makes all the difference to the pilot. A large, turbine powered jet may only go 150 mph and I could probably attain that speed MAY have already attained that speed with a standard 47 sport engine, a high pitched prop and some Free Coroplast. But that is assuming that SPEED is the only goal. Producing a realistic, beautiful turbine powered aircraft that handles well is probably more on the list of things the Turbine guys are doing. The upper limits of speed achievable by them are just an added benefit. Am I jealous that someone can afford 15-20 thousand per aircraft and I'm scraping together money to buy RX gear for my next airplane? Yuppers, but if I did have the money I don't know that I actually would spend it there anyways. They are pretty cool jets though, hmmmm.

2. A scale Lancair that goes faster than a pylon ship? Yes, and? A pylon ship is designed with a specific purpose and under a set of rules. Depending on event they are limited to engine, wing, fuse and type of construction. Your scale ship has none of these limitations to it therefore you can take a clean design like the Lancair, put some decent power in it and just go all out. And if you are trying to compare RC racing to CL racing, the differences are quite large. In fact, the only real comparison is that its a race with a set engine size. The RC version requires great depth perception and smooth flying skills. The CL version requires great depth perception, smooth flying skills and the ability to run around in the center of a tight circle for 10 minutes at a time. Put the average guy up with two other pilots going around in 2.5 seconds for 140 laps and see where the athletic portion of the event comes in. I have only raced in the introductory classes of both styles and they are both fun. But I am not a great pilot. I am an average sport pilot with tons of practice behind me. Very few people with my capabilities can work as long and hard as I have without rising in the ranks of a discipline. But I have done it. I have firmly planted my feet on the shores of mediocrity and firmly cemented them there!

I just wish now that I had waited till high tide. Don't suppose anyone out there would have a sledge hammer I could borrow?

I hope these are an answer to your questions. It probably was best answered by Buddude8 when he said 'To each his own'. But I figured I had all this bandwidth, you know?
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:21 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Yes and No.

Those jets look great and they fly very badly; the aerodynamics doesn't care much about the outlook and
the money and the jet-wing is for really high speeds as we know, for lot above 200 mph. Thus, I think that
placing an expensive turbine is just of waste of money show for those speeds, isn't it ? [sm=confused.gif]

Pilon racers do quite the same what their fathers did in the control line (non RC) speed races some
30-40 years ago, nothing really new. Only the money bills are lot bigger but the way of flying is quite
the same.[sm=confused.gif]

Then my question is getting more clear: - Is there any RC class, something like Scale Race where the
Speed and Skills are in really good use and for competition, not competing how big money we can
spend in a bit "strange" (did not say stupid) manner ? [sm=wink_smile.gif]

I.e. is there any class like the Red Bull AirRace in the RC World ?

If there is somehing like that, please send WWW-pages and info.

Nikolay
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:01 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

ORIGINAL: NikolayTT

Yes and No.

Those jets look great and they fly very badly; the aerodynamics doesn't care much about the outlook and
the money and the jet-wing is for really high speeds as we know, for lot above 200 mph. Thus, I think that
placing an expensive turbine is just of waste of money show for those speeds, isn't it ? [sm=confused.gif]

Pilon racers do quite the same what their fathers did in the control line (non RC) speed races some
30-40 years ago, nothing really new. Only the money bills are lot bigger but the way of flying is quite
the same.[sm=confused.gif]

Then my question is getting more clear: - Is there any RC class, something like Scale Race where the
Speed and Skills are in really good use and for competition, not competing how big money we can
spend in a bit "strange" (did not say stupid) manner ? [sm=wink_smile.gif]

I.e. is there any class like the Red Bull AirRace in the RC World ?

If there is somehing like that, please send WWW-pages and info.

Nikolay
I think most guys flying turbine jets are not in it for the speed, they are in it because they want to fly a turbine jet. It may appear to be a waste of money to you, but they will disagree because they WANT to fly a turbine jet. Have you ever actually flown a turbine powered jet (be it a scale or a sport one)?
And the guys that are truly into turbines for the speed... well I can tell you they are going a lot faster than 150 mph...

As for RC pylon being the same as CL speed: I wouldn't know, because I only flew CL once in my life and it made me dizzy
But I certainly don't think they are the same. Do you compete in some RC pylon event?

If you can come up with an event that is cheap and STAYS cheap... good luck, and patent it!
People have been trying for decades to get an event together that focuses on flying skills as opposed to big wallets... But guess what: pylon racing is about going fast, turning left and getting at the finish line first. Going fast tends to cost money, and people are generally more than willing to spend it if it means they have a bigger chance of winning.
And even at that, pylon is still about skill, no matter how much money you have. You can have the fastest plane in the competition, but if you can't fly the circuit, you still loose.

The Redbull airrace is hardly a race... it is an airshow. If it were a racing event, they wouldn't be flying Extra's...

Why do I answer to this...? [&:]
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:32 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Why do I answer to this...?
Because he's on your side of the pond?
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Old 01-13-2007, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hay:
As usual the "Buddude 8" has it right first away. If you wanta just go fast, build a all out speed only model and go to europe and compete with the real honest go faste guys. If you want to go fast and turn (ie race) you need to go to Q-500 or forumla for around 200 mph and affordable costs, or to gient scale for 275mph and $10-15,000 basic airplanes for that unlimited class which is 75 mph above the max airspeed permitted by the AMA for now. For the unusual, go to the jets and still spend the 10-15k. In the final analysis, its still as the dude said, "To each their own". Do you perfer a chev. or ford, blond or what ever comes next, your choice, your values, dont try to understand the rest of us cause none of us are the same (thank god). Regardless, ENJOY life as you want to live it. Otherwise you must conform with the Buddude8, his bro and myself, a thing we really do not wish on you, but you could do a lot worse.
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Old 01-14-2007, 08:35 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

I would say that the German Speed Event (Cup) is where the fastest prop planes go to play (222 MPH top speed reached):

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_37...tm.htm#3740991



For turbines it would be the Brazilan Jet Speed Event (317 MPH top speed reached):

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_35...tm.htm#3546158
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Old 01-15-2007, 01:45 AM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Guys,
While talking about the extremes in the RC Speed Aviation, I think we still did not find the RC class where the
things are in harmony. For sure I did not mean to decline the right of exsistence of any of those classes but
some of you jumped to defend them. And even if I have denied their exsistence right, what then; I am nobody
to tell what should happen. If you got me that way, then you still did not understand me. So, let me try again
in a different manner of expression in order to find a path to your correct understanding:
1. Every body is Free to make any crazy thing as long as he does not cause harm, including making us
a waste of money show and using utmost perfect technical skils; I guess we do not disagree this ever; that
is the freedom of expressing ourselves (and myself) too.
2. Extreme Speed and a bit ugly looking planes ? - Well depends on the taste; usually people disagree,
because what is nicely looking thing for someone is not looking so (...) nice to someone else. But then
there are things (cars, boats, airplanes, etc) which are commonly more prefered than the other ones
and thus the humans tend to have some way to agree what is more desirable for more people than
what is pleasing few people only. The Other way around: - Extreme Speed and Very attractive planes,
like those Jets in Brasil (THANKS FOR THE WWW-PAGES !!!) still have a big drawback - COST, in both
senses: Materials and Workhours. Thus, in both speed classes, propeller and turbine, there are very
few players indeed. Where are the masses of humans = they play and look at football, hokey etc,
simple things they can "assemble" in a fast manner, and they look at us a hopeless maniacs some
time because most of the time many of us are such ones. Well, that is also freedom we defend the
right to exist, but we are too lonely quite many times.
3. Other Big Cost examples are the World Aerobatic (human inside) Championship and the race in
Reno. But that is not the case of lonelines in the Red Bull Air Races. And doesn't matter what we call
or not that race, there are attracted millions of people and they cannot be all wrong and we - the right
ones. Thus, my whole Question is: (I am trying again to formulate it more precisely) - Is there any
RC Class where the things are in better Harmony so many people can find pleasure at least looking
at it, like it is in RedBull AirRace, and it is not in any other Air Sport (still do not get me wrong here,
I do not drink that RedBull drink - that is too much coffein inside). In RedBull AirRace there are Many
things taken to the edge of perfection: Perfect Pilot Skils, Ulitmately performing Ariplanes, Low cost
compared with the cost for F1 car (maybe 1:5 if not 1:10), Attractive Flight of Freedom in the Air.
4. My Idea was and still is, by looking into the problems, to try to find for myself a solution of
a more efficent way of spending the Money and Time in the RC hobby, by asking if someone else
has found that. Something really efficient and in Harmony with all those difficulties, and thus wining
the Approval and Admiration of lot more people like the RedBull AirRace, but now in the RC World ?
And the benefit for the RC would be at least Lower Cost due to the massive competition of many
suppliers, isn't it. Thus, if there is such RC Plane Class, please E-mail me some WWW-pages.

Best Regards,
Nikolay
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Old 01-15-2007, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

SPAD Bulldawg- 3 bucks of coro and pvc. Midway down the SPADdawgs website http://www.spssalesinc.com/spaddawgs_photos.htm
GMS47 or your choice of cheap engine for speed, more if you can afford it, 65 bucks at Tower
131 mph

Is that cheap and fast enough for you?

As far as attracting public? They aren't interested and generally wonder why we're not playing video games.
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Old 01-15-2007, 01:33 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Maybe he would be referring to one of the 2 main classes of Pylon Racing.


Q-500 would be more "for the people" (i.e. the low cost allows "the masses" to play too). There are standard, readily available ARFs and kits available (the Predator II of Lanier RC being the most popular ARF http://www.lanierrc.com/lrcprivate/r...atorIIARF.html )

and the engines are not that expensive. This is how "common folk" enter the sport of racing at my local club and if I was so inclined to enter the sport of competitive racing, where I would start

A select few then graduate to QM-40 or even F3D, with specially designed composite airframes and VERY high revving Nelson engines(but do-able for less than $1000 USD)
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:45 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

check out this jet

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tErGXfwMI...elated&search=
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

this one is even faster


http://youtube.com/watch?v=rT-DtoKyY...elated&search=
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Old 01-15-2007, 09:28 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???


ORIGINAL: SSGSPEEDMAN

this one is even faster


http://youtube.com/watch?v=rT-DtoKyY...elated&search=
That's the same plane in both videos...
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Old 01-16-2007, 02:44 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi!
Nikolay! I have trouble following you...[] I don't unestly understand what you are after????
I fly pylonracing because it's fun! I build and fly scale because its fun! I fly aircombat because it's fun!
Its simple as that...!
What's the logic in life???
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:28 AM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Jan,

Surely I build and fly quite many different things but the probelms which are bothering me are:
1. The RC comunity has copied in a way or another the behaviour of the Wind; blows in any
possible direction and with all kind of useless results and expensive "damages". Maybe if this
is the hobby idea then nothing wrong with it, but we are pretty lonely in this hobby, aren't we,
and especially in Scandinavia, and the fun is of course well limited to have only couple guys
in few of the many RC classes. While the videogame watchers, football, hockey, etc, there
are many millions times more than us people out there; are all of them stupid people ? - I do
not think so; maybe there is something wrong with us as well... - this is the General Reason
to search for STRANGE things in this forum, like Extreme Speed of the Propeller, but not all
are those who care if the Speed of the Airplane is nothing special ... Also, Jets are nicely
looking and expensive but with Jet turbine on Regular Wing Ariplane could still be faster
then with Jet Wing, which Jet Wing is for speed newer achieved (so far at least) in RC, i.e.
we have not seen anyone going with 900 km/h where according to AeroDynamic Engineers
the Jet-type of wing makes sense; meaning another reason to the general public to look at
us as to as a kind of nice "lunatics" and turn their back to us.
2. Next, I turned to this and some other forums to find out if someone has invented a
nice combination of High-Tech, High-Performance, Modest Cost, and VERY ATTRACTIVE
RC type of Airplanes-and-Competition, which would attract lot more people than anyone
of the exsisting ones, something like the RedBullAirRace did in the big planes. Maybe
such thing is coming, maybe not; still I did not get any encouraging answer from
anyone yet; mostly the answer is in a way or another, "take a break, take a KitKat"
and do not bother, do as all the others do, forget thinking over this ... Still some
people asked "Why", like you did, and that is giving me hope; Thanks for asking !!!
3. After all those discussions in this and some other forums, I am thankful for the
constructive remarks, not surprised by the standard dicuraging ones, and I see that
maybe the future is something like RC models types which are (I will try to define
what I believe in and that might turn not to be the case anyway):
Very Good Looking Piston Type Scale RC-models, with sizes of 160-180 cm,
powered by about 15cc engines (something like.91FX OS), weight of about 3.5kg,
Speed of about 160-200 km/h, which are capable of Intermediate Skill Aerobatics,
and having some track competition like the Big Planes in RedBullAirRace, meaning
- Why to Invent Something Else if miilions of People have Selected this kind of
Attraction Mix of Speed and "Dance-in-the-Air" and stay lonely as we are now ???
Price of a such one and the associated things is quite less than 1000 USD; I have
RC-Lancair of those proportions and with all things, including the field equipment,
it costs me so far 860 Euro. I have also a similar Extra-300L but the way I fly it
makes some F3A guys quite ungry, they say it is too fast for F3A. Well, in the
same those moments they do not question why around me there are few more
guys enjoyng, compered to the almost nobody who want to go to F3A Professionals
Class competition events, except F3A Pilots mostly, who have invested quite above
2000-3000 Euro in a single RC-plane ... surely they will be quite lonely that way.

Well, now I hope you got better picture about my "trouble".
Do you agree, or you have an ortogonal ideas?

Best Regards,
Nikolay
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Old 01-17-2007, 06:34 AM
  #17  
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Nickolay,

I can see what you are saying, you really are looking for a form of flying that will get the crowds in. Unfortunately High-Tech, High-Performance, & Modest Cost don't always run together.

In my opinion you wont get many people to come to a mini red-bull event when the aircraft are 40 sized. If you were using 33% aircraft the people would possibly flood in. A tuscon style event is different to what people are used to in their local area, so they will come for a look. In the area where I live we have international events such as triathalon's, motorcross, national golf titles, & even a national kite festival, but nothing like a big model or jet event, which is very different.

Our club runs a jet event (Jets over Coolum) each year, we normally get around 40 pilots turn up, we are hoping for 70 this year. It has been advertised on TV, radio, & print media each year, & is getting bigger & bigger. Last year we had almost 6000 spectators over 2 days, making it 1 of the biggest in the country. The crowds come to see a "mini jet", & the real sound & smell of kero burning.

I hope this makes sense,
Tony.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:27 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the comments; I fully agree - you have achieved what I am dreaming
about, although not with the modest cost airplanes, it is a really great thing !!!
Warm CONGRATULATTIONS !

Nikolay
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Old 01-17-2007, 10:57 PM
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Nikolay,

I really don't think people are paying 3000 bucks for an F3A plane just to be miserable and lonely... You make it sound like somebody is holding a gun to their head, making them buy "overpriced" planes, have them practising year round just to have a lousy day at the contest. Has it occured to you that these people actually enjoy spending time with their friends while doing what they like??
The annual big scale aerobatics competition/show (F3A-X) at our club has turned into quite the event. Participants from several different countries, lots of spectators, a big ol' barbeque... what more could you ask for? And they all fly overpriced planes...

And a lot of people that fly turbines want their plane to look like a jet... because they want to fly a jet after all. Who cares if the wing planform isn't tested in a windtunnel...? You apparently, but they sure as hell don't.
I could put a turbine on my 100" Telemaster. That would fly it too. And it would fly at speeds much more suitable to that long straight wing. It has been done before, but now that is something I personally would call crazy.
Turbines are VERY inefficient at the speeds most people fly their planes at. And yet turbines are becoming more and more common. Are all these people buying them nuts? Because the most logical power system would be a big slow turning prop...

I don't mind paying 400 bucks for a Q500 engine... heck I'd pay 500 for one that turned 1000 rpm more on the same prop. I like Q500 just the way it is. Again that may sound crazy to you, but WE have a fabulous time when the contest starts.
It doesn't bother me that there aren't 500 spectators watching from behind the fence. I fly pylon for MY pleasure, not to please somebody else.

If you want to attract the "masses" to you event, you should start advertising. That's what we do: we started advertising our events in local newspapers and stuff like that. It is a lot more effective then inventing a whole new discipline, I can tell you that much. We even made national TV once!
Now we have people coming over for a look that didn't even know there was something like radio controlled planes... and they LOVE pylon racing. 3 planes flying 10 laps, all day long... sounds pretty boring doesn't it? But why is it that these people stay all afternoon to watch this boring stuff?
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:17 AM
  #20  
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Nickolay,
Thanks, we are about 6 months out now & are organising things for this event already, & have around 30 pilots signed up now. We have a 3m Mibo A10 coming, & a UAV heli worth $250 000.

Tony.
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:48 AM
  #21  
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Rudeboy,

Surely making more contrasting statements helps everybody to make more clear the points.
That is what I did, and it seems you are doing it as well. And for sure no one of the professionals
in any RC class is stupid. But still, there are different people, those who enjoy to be lonely and those
who don't in fact аs it could be more correctly said, in general the people like both, to be lonely and
with many others, depending on the case. When I am tuning my new plane I like to be alone or with
only few people around; but when the plane is OK then I even like to offer it for the RCyoungsters to
try to fly it via the cable of the student-RC-Tx although they did not even had build a single plane yet ...
Have you tried that ? Of course it should not be a too Expensive(!) Plane. That makes me more happy
than to fly it with only few friends. There is a very nice excitement in the eyes of the young RC pilots
which tells you clearly this sport got the next pilot for sure today, not maybe in some non defined time
later. On your other points:
- Yes, I agreed already with Tony that the Advertising is Very Important.
- No, I do not quite agree neither with Tony, nor with you, that the Price of the Aiplane is not so critical.
Because the price of the videogames is almost "free", the ball for the football is also almost free, thus
there go too many not stupid people in a lot more price-reverse-proportional manner.
- In fact, I believe that you might get more people into the RCsport if the planes you
fly are more accessible for more people if those RCs were cheaper, let say 5 times than
they are costing now. Do you agree ?
- Yes, as Tony and you have said, you get many people. But in Scandinavia this is not so "easy"
(of course nothing is easy) because there aren't so many people like in the other places. Thus, I
have to look for one step further more cheaper than Jet and F3A plane in order to Compensate
the 10x time lower density of the population, also the huge distances and a very long winter,
all in all it is further more difficult to me to just copy an experience from other locations.
I have to get more efficient if you like to use that word, "efficiency" is maybe suitable one.
In fact as you noticed I do not quite like to be ineficient even in the name of the beauty of
the plane or the type of the engine it uses.

Meaning, if some approach is working somewhere and it doesn't quite work here, then
what would be wrong to invent even a new class, which is more efficient, like the
people tend to do in many cases, for example invent novel car Structure and novel
trafic Rules when the Gas get more expensive and/or the CO2 gets too high ...

Well, I think we do not have to change our views on the matter; everybody has got
his reasons and also rights to be different, as we also we live in quite different
circumstaces. Still we like to see "something" flying in a very nice manner; thus
we got quite in common anyway. And what is more efficient for me might prove to
be eventually more attractive in other locations, like the "small" japanese cars
got too much in favor in the time of expensive gasoline few decades ago and
still have growing popularity beside the V12 types indeed, especially in some
narrow steets of "Old" Europe.

Thus I would be further more happy if after all said here so far we could invent at
least something only a-litle-bit-new, which preserves to great extend the excitement
and lowers to great extend the cost. I.e. to become a bit more efficient in the use
of the money and time. Then I think the general public will react on it quite
for sure with greater numbers at yours and other locations... and we get more
RC friends and for sure lower prices than now; then I might invest in a Jet...

Could you then please suggest some better alternative to the one I suggested
like .91 size Lancair, which is not .40 size, neither it is 1.60 size, looks very
nice and flyies in a very nice manner, it is easy to build and does not
cost too much, let say keeping the cost below 1000 USD ?
And then add the corresponding competition rules which are not just
only Time, not just only Exact shapes in the air aerobatics; etc,
well ... it seems I am re-defining again that RedBullAirRace kind of
a MIX of Attraction and Speedy Stuf, which is not needed to be writen
again indeed; the case is quite clear already, although not solved
quite yet.

Best Regards,
Nikolay
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:57 PM
  #22  
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Nikolay,

I see what you are getting at. And it is a commendable idea. But let me tell you, you have got your work cut out for you. Let me give you an example:

Let's say you include a stopwatch in your event. The word "race" implies that there is a stopwatch involved. Stopwatch = speed. You want to keep things cheap, simple and accessible, so your rules state that only the OS 91FX is allowed. Everything is fine so far.
Three years from now your event has picked up a nice crowd; the number of participants grows steadily. Suddenly OS announces that the 91FX is being phased out and that it will be replaced with a new model. Simple enough you say: you change the rules and from now on only the new 91 from OS is allowed. What you get now is that all the people that have invested in 91FX engines for your event are going to want to keep running those engines. Again, simple enough you say: the 91FX and the new model are the allowed engines. But wait a minute... the new 91 happens to turn 400 rpm less on the "ideal" prop. Now you are having a hard time attracting new participants, because they don't have a fair chance: the "old" crowd is flying faster engines which can no longer be had.

Ok, so outlawing engines doesn't work. So you have to work on a price based system: the engines cannot cost more than "XXX" dollars, because we want that event to stay cheap and accessible. Now you will have people searching every corner of the globe to find engines that turn 50 rpm more on prop Y while costing less than "XXX" dollars. Some will find them, and some won't. And again you will have people getting discouraged.

The same goes for planes: if you start outlawing planes you will get in trouble. If you don't outlaw planes people are going to come up with better (and probably more expensive) designs...

This is all just hypothetical... I just wanted to point out the problems involved when setting rules. It is VERY hard to keep competition cheap. People are always going to try to get that extra edge, at any cost sometimes.

If you drop the stopwatch in favor of a set of maneuvres you are going to need judges... but who is going to judge who? Judges are a tricky thing...

Do you see what I mean?

You are right though about the fact that we need more people in this hobby. And I would love to see what you come up with to accomplish that goal.
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:04 PM
  #23  
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Default RE: Extreme Speed of Propeller or Airplane ???

Hi Fellows,

It seems we are comming out of the "tunel" and there seems more bright future ahead; i.e.
I am very much encouraged by your recent replies and based on your understanding let me
ask couple
Techical Trade-Off Questions, which might answer some of your questions too:
1. Rudeboy has very exact questions and they can be answered allmost all at once in general by the
Question of the Trade-Off (i.e. related to Efficiency) I have in mind: - The OS.91FX I have selected
as a typical example of the .91 class Trade-Off among the Price-vs-Performance for almost any of
the "things" under discussion. Please Digest the Following:
- Power-to-Weight Ratio of the Engines in .91 (15cc) range. If use the catalog data with its hidden
risks (!) it is very immediately clear that those engines have the best one (among the piston ones)
and also the price is near 200 USD, while the performance is ultimately very good. Here are many
ones as Webra.91, SuperTigre.90, which are very popular by those reasons, while the 1.4 and 1.6,
and even 1.2 cu, are a "dragging" us into almost double expenses if you look also at the other things
of primary importance like Propeller, Starter, Ariplane etc, for what belongs to the "Professional" class
the Pricess are almost double, for example reffering to Tower hobbies pages. In FACT in Tower Hobbies
you will not Find Anymore in year 2007 so many 2.0 Airplanes because I guess maybe they do not sale
as well as the smaller ones. In other words, by increasing the power of the engine from 0.47 up, there
is a Sharp step up in the pricess for anything above 0.91(15cc), isn't it ?!
- It does not have to be OS.91 and even if FX dissapear, there are going to be quite for sure many
other Ringed or Not ones which have similar Power-to-Weight-to-Price "accomodation"; here I guess
Rudeboy could agree that my .91-idea has longer life ahead, OK ?
- Also, if we look at the ordinary, let say general Car for general people, it is still pretty OK for the
Ariplanes of size up to 180cm(max 2m) which is the size for .91 engine; bigger planes need bigger
cars and that is rising the "overall" cost of the hobby.
- Fuel is also lot more expensive for bigger engines apetite; i.e. another still good reason for using
the .91. I have BGX-1(35cc) and that consumes (I was surprised) not much more than 1.6FX(28cc)
and both "eat nicely almost double" amount of fuel for power about 3.6-4.1 bhp, while with a good
one .91 one can get up to 2.7-2.9 bhp.

If I consider somehow that we could agree on that Question #1: - that the .91 is the Mass-People
ENGINE (do we ?), then the questions could be reduced to only two more:
the RC AIRPLANE: - Yes, we prefer flying beatiful Scale (or Semi-scale) "things" and in the
RCUniverse Popularity list are easily found who are the Most Wanted ones; please check if you
haven't, but you will find out most likely they are still: Cessna, Mustang, Extra, Pit, all old nice
fellow names.
No Surprise at all is: - they are MATCH for what is flying around as big plane most likely.
Still the "New kid arround" is the Awards winning (even in Reno) Lancair Kit Plane in many
ranges. Some even say that if 20'th century was Cessna's time, the 21st at least begins
with Lancair ... I thing you have no doubts anymore that surely, I would like to buy one
like that (www.lancair.com) instead of the most expensive RC-Jet, and the cheapest kit is
about 35 kUSD, almost very near to the expensive RC-jets hangars of the RC-jet
Fellows, i.e. again about my view on Efficiency still do not make me sick for saving the
big money as soon as get my hands on them - they will go to the REAL PLANE,
instead to RC-one, and if I have to choose I will sale all RC I have for a nice real one,
maybe not Cessna anyway; in fact old Cessna you can get for just 8000 USD even
cheaper than good RC-Jet, but it is an old one indeed; and the maintenance for
ceritifed airplane is lot more than Experimental one as we know. Back to RC:
- Also, NOT in the last place, especially in the windy conditions the WEIGHT and then
achievable SPEED are the Pre-Conditions to Fly more hours around the year, like it is
in the Nordic Countries; it is lot more windy than in the south; in fact ther are only few
days per year with less than 5m/s wind and lot of .47 planes require lot more
skils to fly than the .91, i.e. more people have less crashes on .91 than on
the .47. In addition bigger is better is nicely suitable for the beginners since
the big airplane is not only more stable (in general) but it is also more
relaxing because it is seen from longer distances, as we all know.
As for other parts: Servo for anything above .91 is 2-3 times more
expensive too, etc.
Local Conclusion here #2 is: We do not have to select only one RC-Model, maybe
only we have to select the RANGE of Capabilities and that is needed in order to go
to the next QUESTION # 3, which is - What kind of Competition Rules would be the
best for .91 size (Semi)Scale Airplane like those listed above. ??
SHORTLY, please comment if this the Right Order to Make the Selections:
# 1. Engine => # 2.Aiplane => #3. Rules of Competition.
In fact the Letter of Rudeboy suggested that there have been some kind of
very exciting competition event and settings which somehow were at their pick
about 3 Years Ago; - Could you please post some Photo, Rules-drafts, or Video,
or WWW-page or what event has been that time ? - maybe we find there
something byt reason or another we can Re-Discover like a very nice
thing and update and addapt to the time nowadays; 3 years is not that
long ago, isn't it ?

Best Regards,
Nikolay
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