Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

what is faster

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Old 08-07-2007, 06:24 AM
  #1  
dirtmagnet
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Default what is faster

which one is faster, Ultra Sport .40 or .60 with optimum engines and props. this is the older ultra sport with retracts.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:42 AM
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Default RE: what is faster

....usually the smaller plane would be faster, but it really depends on the engines.
The 40 size would go good with an OS 60 FSR, or a Tower .75, but the bigger plane
with a Jett .90 would give it a good race....it could be even faster.

FBD.
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Old 08-07-2007, 11:12 AM
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dirtmagnet:

Interesting question. I always found the Ultra Sport to be faster than most in the 40 size when equiped with retracts/tail dragger. A excellent scooter that gave me fits in our club open class racing was the GP Super Sportster kit, built as taildragger, retracts, engine 45 ST extra cowelled in. Kicked everyone's tail for years. It was never beaten constantly even with a rules conforming streemlined Q-500 Jett 50L powered. Thing died while trying to pass me low and hit the 4' fence. I both rejoiced in its passing and was sad to see something of this quality die. I would think the Ultra sport built from a kit would be superior. The ARF's are simply no good for speed. The arf wing leading edge is boxed out and missing that support area that becomes very critical at higher speeds. I did one arf up with Jett 60LX, but waited to install retracts. It was reasonabely quick but needed the gear to come up. After 3 flights, found the wing center section cracking back toward trailing edge. I gave the project up as not worth the effort. Would have built one from kit form at the time, but could not find one, so designed something from scratch, pic attached maby. If you really want to amaze the guys, get a Hobbico Avi-Star, cut the wing down to 40", build flat, streemline nose a little, add webra 55 with 9 X 10 apc. You will run the Q500 sport engine powered guys crazy, probably lap them in a 10 lap heat. I had to build a "super rules bender" to beat the thing, and finally build one myself for a practice ship. Now I fly the practice ship in the races as it scoots ang groves so well. ENJOY
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Old 08-07-2007, 11:44 AM
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Default RE: what is faster

Roger,

How does that thing run without backpresssure?

Also, looks like it may be nose heavy with that long looking nose??

As to which is faster, I would say the 40 sized. They'd probably end up about the same speed optimally set up, but the smaller plane will appear faster because its smaller
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:26 PM
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Dave:

A Jett 60 LX will run well without packpressure and fuel! You'r not supposed to keep the tank connected while in storage, raw fuel may get into the engine and rust stuff even with after run oil. (just a mouthy response for grins) No, its not nose heavy, if anything tail heavy, flys with obvious down trim. Frankly this thing is not sorted out yet due to other ongoing project issues. There is no pressure to get this creature racing as the Avi-Star is not as yet run down by the crowd. Other issue are recent eye tests find some cateracts in process. Bummer cause I wanted to get something in the air just to bug you and a couple of the other guys at 'Tuson-08. One month I'm flying in the grove, next month all over the place, scary almost out of control. Funny how you have to see these things well to run a good grove. The slower stuff is still ok, but the fun stuff maby out for a while. The yellow thingy is flat sscary fast even with the newer wide body/full 52" quickee composite wing. Fun to crank it up on a stand, sit it down, taxie out to the runway and take off with no issues, but that was the intended design. Tired of the gang screaming it's just a illegal (here) Q-500 in descise. The Rusty VaBaren Miss Ashley project is on hold until the eyesight issue is resolved. No since chance stuffing a $650.00 sweet bird like this just for the sake of a old guy refusing to let go. Its just so much fun to cut those big tall guys in half when they are not looking. (old college football days) Good thing I enjoy 3D, you can keep um in and close. Enlugh BS. ENJOY
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:34 AM
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daven
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Default RE: what is faster

Well I truely hopeyou get the eyes going and that Ashley put together. You will love how it flies, almost flies itself
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:52 PM
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well i have an ultra sport 40 with retracts and magnum .52 on it right now. i wanted to get this thing fixed back up cause its got a mild case of hangar rash and i have pulled a few thinggs off of it. i need a blue cowling for it and i dont know where to get one. i have thought about getting an avistar and modifying the wing a little bit and making it a tail dragger.

here is the big question. i will either buy a Kougar or an Avistar .40 and modify it. which one will be faster and turn peoples heads. which i have a Kougar right now but i want another one but i'm stuck between a rock and a hard spot.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:24 PM
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Default RE: what is faster

Dirtmaginet:

We may get a lot of flak here, but I will guarantee you the Avi-Star with streight wing cut down to 40" will kick most anything else in the tail. Now, we want to insure the thing will out-scoot the gang. Obtain a one of the new Webra 55's, add Dub Jett Jett Stream tuned muffler, apc 9 X 10 prop and it will be scary fast. You gotta break the Webra in correctly with at least 1 gallon of fuel through it on the bench. Keep the nitro down to 5% for breakin, I still run a extra 1 oz of caster for the Webra. Do it and it will run for a long long time. Be sure to glass the wilng center section, although there are two running here stock, no modifications to the wing or tailfeathers, Q-500 type landing gear. Now, for any of you go faster guys in the Central Valley area that want to challange the above, lets get togeather with your fast sports airframe and engine and run for pinks?? I run against a LR-1 with Jett 40 and can hang. Lr-1's no sport airframe, its a composit/glass racer. ENJOY
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: what is faster


ORIGINAL: dirtmagnet

which one is faster, Ultra Sport .40 or .60 with optimum engines and props. this is the older ultra sport with retracts.

Well as the owner of a 60 size with a Jett 90, I'll chime in. Mine is very fast, not "quick" but fast and their is a bigh difference here. Top end wise, I could take a 40 size with a Jett 50 but as far as the quickness of the plane, the 40 size would take me easy.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:30 PM
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Cyclic Hardover:

You can fix the quick side by simply stuffing that 90 into the 40 Ultra Sport frame and have the best of both worlds. Ok, gonna take a little lead in the tail. While your at it, might as well take one bay off each side of the wing. Does not seem to effect landing or turning. What would tick you off is to have that Avi-Star both outrun you down the streight and out turn you around the pylons. Life is sometimes just not fare.! Your US is one really nice looking well thought-out airplane. ENJOY
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:14 PM
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Thank you , I would love to see another in a plain cub yellow with a tinted canopy, that would also look real sharp. I have spring airs underneath. I like planes without decals and crap all over it. Even a basic plain color can look real good.
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:09 PM
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rmenke
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CH:

I am much the same but from necessity since I don't have ANY artistc skills, period. Strange since I can build a great flying bird by eye, or glance at a building structure design and see structural flaws and weakness without doing calculations. I build um, put a great finish on them and let that speek for itself. (not much choice) ENJOY
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:33 AM
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i dont have much "custom fabrication" experience so what do you mean glass the wing center section? fiberglass? if so how do you do that.

if you are sure it will out run a maximum set up kougar i'm gonna have to get an avistar instead of another kougar. something else i got to thinking about would an ultra stick be better than an avistar because its got a fully sym. wing instead of a semi sym. wing. but i do think the ultra stick is thicker. if it is then i would be wrong.

CYCLIC HARDOVER
did your US come with plastic covering? also do you know where i can find a cowling for one.
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:07 AM
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Mike Connor
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ORIGINAL: dirtmagnet

i dont have much "custom fabrication" experience so what do you mean glass the wing center section? fiberglass? if so how do you do that.
This link explains how to fiberglass.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184236
Fiberglass can be used to strengthen a structure or prepare it for painting. Q-500 planes may have more then one layer of cloth that is several inches wide, top and bottom, on the wing center section.
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:26 PM
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rmenke
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dirtmagnet: Mike Connor is right on. You don't need to go through a 3 ply system, a one ply with 2-3oz cloth is enough by observation. This is not a must do, but recommended. There are two others in the club flying for two seasons without a failure. In order to build the wing flat, you will have to make a center joiner out of 1/4" ply. Use the stock unit, and make same size and length. You will also have to sand the center sections to join without a large gap, and the wings come with the dihedrial angle built in. Cut a 1/8" piece of hard balsa and epoxie to one wing side. Carefully sand the center section to match up without a gap when laid flat on the table. Want this wing flat, no dihedrial.

You should be using hold down bolts for the wing, I use two front and two rear. You can fill the areas needilng to be solid balsa for the bolts relatively easy before you join the wing. Need to purchase a Q-500 landing gear and wheels. Recommend you get at www.darrolcady.com and keep him on your for sure "Good guys" list. His LG is tempered and does not bend all over the place on each landing. Also get the wheels and steel axels from him as they are sturdy, and again quality. You will pay a little more for the gear, but save a bunch in broken props, wheels and gear replacement. If its not quality, Darrol does not sell it. Install a 1/4" piece of ply in front of the existing landing gear location in the bay leading to the front blukhead, tap with 1/4 X 20 for tapered nylon bolts. Can get them at Lowe's or similar. Remember, were building a tail dragger. Obtain DuBro 40 size tailwheel assembly and install to existing rear area. It will be free to move with no control which is fine, not going to taxie this thing around, and will work fine under wfo takeoffs and general landing. Can always add another pushrod to the tail gear if you want to add the weight and cut into the fuse. I'm a KISS person for what its worth.

I don't like the stock heavy motor mount, but its useable as is. I knock out the existing blind nuts from the firewall, fill with hardwood dowell stock and replace with a Dave Brown 4650 nylon mount. You will be saving around 6 oz and help in the CG/battery install. Battery will end up between wing and tail with all 3 servos as close to the rear wing bulkhead as possible. Add a triangle balsa brace to the vertical stab on right side, stock is a little weak.

I streemline the nose of my bird, the other two are running stock open frame in front with a good spinner as wide as the airframe with no real apparent problem. This is something you can do any time in the future. The Webra 55 eats the other modified K & B 48 screamer alive by around 20-30 mph. It also hangs with the nephew's Jett 60LX powered bird, much to my supprise. If the kid ever learns to needle the Jett correctly, I'm in trouble. Heck no I'm not going to help him needle on race day, like shooting yourself in the foot, afterall, a 45 year handicap should be enough.

Now, all this may sound imposing and difficult, not. You gotta learn some basic skills sometime, its good that this bird id $99.00 from Tower. If you decide to build this thing, let me know and I will post some pics that will help. ENJOY
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:22 PM
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rmenke...

Ok you gotta give up the marbles...where/ how do I get one of those "yellow things". You used a Q500 wing and made a fuse and cowl??....
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:42 PM
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rmenke, i will build this thing but not right now. i'll prolly start next month because i'm about ot move and i dont want to have abunch of parts i gotta move and end up losing them. when i get there or pretty close i'll let you know. thanks!!
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:43 PM
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Destiny:

Sorry, that one "Yellow Jacket" is in my head, but very simple to build. I do have a very simple drawing of the fuse sides and bulkheads. The wing you have to buy or find one undamaged from one of your club's Q-500 nuts that made a bo-bo and left the wing intact. Any modern Q-500 high wing will do well, including the balsa & foam systems. My composit wing was a survivor of a mid-air incident a friend had. Remember, the Q-500 is high rev 40 powered. Sticking a 60LX in something more streemlined is only to keep the go faster guys in aw. When they close in (they always do) the wing will get chopped to 45", and a new narrow fuse built. I am always scrounging unfinished kits and related items from sales such as balsa, and remains. There are two more usable Q-500 wings on the rack, takes about 3 weeks to kick out a new fuse (old and slow). This bird is simply a Q-500 moment widened to accomodate a 12oz tank (60 powered remember) the nose stretched and widened for the 60 and the tail moments extended to offset the additional weight, and slow the snapping turn down a little. Still corners like a scalded bat. Lands like a friendly Q-500, does not fall out of the air, you can drag tail if you have the motor and wavos. At 3.75 lbs, its user friendly when landing. If you can get a Krangke F3D or LR-1 down in one piece, this bird will be easy. If you would PM me with your address, will send you general drawings as long as you agree to copy for any other member of our gang. If you are not a experienced builder, you might reconsider a project with no complete plans or parts. Spank-spank, you do not "make a cowel" for a go faster airplane. You cowel in the motor area to conform to your design. Cowels are the modern way of doing ARF's at a reasonable price, and generally lighter than builtup balsa. Old builders will get the exterior cut to shape and then work the interior until you have adequate space for the engilne and mount. The die hards will continue carvilng until there is not much more than 1/16" left and then epoxie the interior for fule proof and added streingth. Not so hard when you sit down with a bare 100w light bulb close behind the material you are removing. You will see light through the balsa before you cut or grind through. Yes, thats what those gougers are for in the older exacto knife kits. Don't need no stinking grinders until you get old and lazy. Really don't know what you may be starting here. I'm not giving anything up to that big guy Dave Norman, it would surely haunt me before I'm gone. The fact I get great help from him has nothing to do with this. Am still trying to negociate a decent race handicap with him, he remains quiet thinking I have forgotten the call out. Going near blind has gotta be good for 5 seconds don't you guys think. How bout 3 and I get a whistle on both wings? ENJOY
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Old 08-10-2007, 03:51 AM
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how much would this engine/pipe setup be. but i can't find a webra 55. where can i find one with the pipe you were talking about.
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Old 08-10-2007, 06:30 AM
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I hear ya Roger, and haven't forgot the challenge
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Old 08-10-2007, 10:48 AM
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ORIGINAL: dirtmagnet

how much would this engine/pipe setup be. but i can't find a webra 55. where can i find one with the pipe you were talking about.
Webra 55 info: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_55...tm.htm#5529978


Mark
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:25 AM
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dirtmagnet:

Webra 55 available at www.horizonhobby.com. Tuned pipe either Performance products (Nelson guys) or Jett Engineering. Both are well made and work about the same. I perfer the Jett Engineering product as it is a tad cheaper and the pressure line connection is a actual niple, not a cast in glob I have a hard time connecting. While at Horizon, get the exhaust bolt pattern centering as Nelson or Jett may not know. If a problem, yell & I can look. I know the JettStream pipe for the ST 46 will work, but you have to drill out the engine a little to work. Now, if money is not a problem, go with the Jett Engineering 60LX cast engine. Webra is very good for the money, $160-180 or so VS the Jett at about $400. The Jett comes with the pipe so Webra at $160. + 60 =$220, relatively cheep for a exceptional engine. The Jett 60 LX is still superior in most areas, but will not pull a 9 X 10 maby. A 9 X 10 apc is a bunch of prop, the OS 90VRDF may (this is a high rpm fan engine showing up in some of the unlimited war birds). I may try it after I have a number of hours on the Jett, but its my baby and is treated with great loveing care. Still gets a extra ounce of castor in its food. ENJOY
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:13 PM
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i'll prolly go for a webra. i know they dont come with the muffler but it wont be on there anyway so i dont care. but if the jetts are better engines then how can a 60 not pull a 9x10 but a 55 webra can? sorry for all the questions but i just havn't built up an exceptional airplane before and i dont want to screw one up. also i have only delt with 3 brands of engines. OS, Magnum, Super Tigre.
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:30 PM
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Dave:

Trying to get a little reality check here this AM, but its not coming. Still a little too fisty. OK, that beilng said, lets take a direction. Now, remember, the call out is from your end; "you will be SECOND PLACE" = FIRST LOOSER" or something along those lines. Those are "come out to the green" war challange words to all old war horses. Or maby considered as a dog running around peeing on everything marking his territory. First things first, choice of weapons. Think you fly Q-500's and formula. To keep things simple and cost effective, your Q-500 I assume Nelson LS 40 powered, against my poor old home made thingy admitidly with a little more displacement but much lower rpm's and say 6 seconds in 10 laps handicap? Not opposed to finding and building a Viper or something like that. Descent excuse to acquire a Nelson LS. Or, a formula? Will need some time to build and dial in, Tuson is February, not that far away. Yes, I may be forced to pull back from the eyesight aspect, but that can be somwhat overcome if things remain about the same as now. No since in chancing getting some one hirt if I cant be reasonably competitive. Caller will probably be my 6'-41/2" (note the 1/2) nail eatilng protective nephew, with the pit bull attitude. Your decistion as to direction. Do not assume that I don't highly respect someone who "talks the talk, and also walks the walk"; I do with great admiration. We need to take a little care here so we don't create something that will get out of hand, like a regional fun fly race. ENJOY
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:34 PM
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ORIGINAL: dirtmagnet

but if the jetts are better engines then how can a 60 not pull a 9x10 but a 55 webra can?
I was just scolded for using ThrustHP for calculating prop load factors on over squared props but I would think a Jett 60LX should pull a 9x10 just fine between 17,000 and 18,000 rpm. If that is not the case I would like BobB to chime in on this.
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