Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

V tail design

Reply

Old 09-08-2007, 10:28 AM
  #1  
1fasthitman
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sun Prairie, WI
Posts: 172
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default V tail design

Why do Q500 planes like the Great Planes Viper use the V tail setup? I have flown the viper on the sim and find its flying characteristics rather annoying. Are there Q500 planes like it with a standard tail?
1fasthitman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 10:35 AM
  #2  
combatpigg
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

The local Q-500 record has been held by a conventional tailed plane since the last time I checked. If V-tails are set up right, they control the plane just fine....but they are more work to get right.
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 10:51 AM
  #3  
HighPlains
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Over da rainbow, KS
Posts: 5,085
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

In racing competitors are always looking for the next little trick for speed.

Now the story -

A really long time again there was a local left coast racer named "Iron Oxide". He was a very competitive fellow, pretty good flier and modeler with long sleeves on his shirt. You got to have long sleeves, because that's where you keep the tricks. Anyway, it was his nature that he had to win our one dollar trophies by any means possible. So he did what he did towards that goal. Quite often he outran the next fastest model by a lap or more with his model with a V-tail. Well, there must be something about that tail, and the usual blather about less junctions cause less drag were expounded upon with great care. But the actual truth was the creative grinding on the sleeve, and excessive amounts of nitro he put into the fuel tank were the real reasons of his success.
HighPlains is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 12:04 PM
  #4  
Mike Connor
Senior Member
My Feedback: (5)
 
Mike Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 2,025
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

It seems to me that the benefit of one less surface in the breeze would be lost by the opposing forces generated when you moved the stick. A full up pylon turn would also have the drag of left and right rudders at the same time.
Mike Connor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 12:15 PM
  #5  
HighPlains
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Over da rainbow, KS
Posts: 5,085
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Yes, but full up is only about 3/16" measured at the TE. Also why I alway kept my tail at 120 degrees instead of the more popular (but also wrong) angle of 110 degree.
HighPlains is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 12:34 PM
  #6  
combatpigg
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

I would like to figure out how to operate a V-tail with torque rods in that cramped end of the fuselage. Are there any examples of how to do this?
I think the levers coming off the torque rods inside the fuselage would need to be able to pivot.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Qo40583.jpg
Views:	15
Size:	31.1 KB
ID:	758974  
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 02:56 PM
  #7  
Ed Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,305
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Combatpig,

We need 3D pictures for this! The picture shows my method. The pushrod has a ball socket on the end. The funny bent horn has a threaded end. On the end of that is a Dubro #189 ball link. The top left of the horn is the part that goes into the elevator, the middle part of the horn is on the hinge line, The last section is vertical to the push rod. The fuselage width at the horn location has to be 5/8"min. It is a tight fit. I make my tails detachable.

Ed S
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	By76601.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	74.0 KB
ID:	759055   Click image for larger version

Name:	Cx75459.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	80.0 KB
ID:	759056  
Ed Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 03:10 PM
  #8  
combatpigg
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

ED, yes that is tight! I am amzed that you can get both levers to cooperate in such a confined space. There must be less side to side movement than I visualized. Those levers are nice and long, looks like you will get maximum control resolution and leverage mechanically. Should be able to fly the plane with a $50 radio if you wanted to.
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2007, 07:35 PM
  #9  
daven
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,455
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Combatpigg, there are some pretty detailed instructions at www.supertrc.com under Hurrikane instructions.

Here are a couple pics that should help, there are plenty more on the site.

Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Om32784.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	5.6 KB
ID:	759235   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ty64627.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	5.6 KB
ID:	759236  
daven is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2007, 10:45 AM
  #10  
combatpigg
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Dave, that's another real good look at it, thanks. This time we see how it's done with a wood fuselage. I've looked at those ball links on the shelves and never had the courage to try them. Do they tend to stay tighter longer than a clevis type linkage?
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2007, 11:16 AM
  #11  
Ed Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Posts: 3,305
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Do they tend to stay tighter longer than a clevis type linkage?
The amount of use and movement is actually very little. The wear therefore is minimal. With a wood fuselage I imagine it is fairly easy to install the pushrods. Glue on the tail, install the pushrods then glue on the fuselage bottom. I use my own glass fuselage. Hence the detchable tail. I hook up the pushrods then thread them through the hole in the tail seat. Just for safety I always glue a small balsa block in the bottom of the fuselage that sits under and is just clear of the ball socket. This makes it impossible for the ball socket to pop off the ball.

Ed S
Ed Smith is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2007, 12:05 PM
  #12  
rmenke
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Merced, Ca., CA
Posts: 2,118
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Guys:

What amazes me is how you can get both V sections perfectly alligned with the proper incidence relative to the datum line and wing. I can see how to make jigs to keep the two in line with respects to each other, but the attatchment to the fuse has evaded me foreaver. If I can't see how something can be accurately measured by instrument, I flat won't do it. Have thought of building a jig to hold a steel rod along the datum line, then the fuse could be turned to a point the position of each V could be measured with a inclinomeater. Yes, I am insane about getting incidence lines perfect, and will take things to a extreem to insure things are correct, but the attitude has served me well through the years. Must be a genitic thing with german ancestry? Don't everyone measure with a digital micrometer? ENJOY
rmenke is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2007, 06:20 PM
  #13  
combatpigg
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

Roger, they don't know how to glue them straight at Lanier, either.
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2007, 08:48 PM
  #14  
mugenkidd
My Feedback: (94)
 
mugenkidd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,749
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

ORIGINAL: 1fasthitman

Why do Q500 planes like the Great Planes Viper use the V tail setup? I have flown the viper on the sim and find its flying characteristics rather annoying. Are there Q500 planes like it with a standard tail?

Maybe the sim is wrong. I have a viper and it doesn't fly too much different than any other sport plane.... btw the linkage is an easy direct pushrod from servo to tail surface, no tricky ball sockets required.
mugenkidd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2007, 07:38 AM
  #15  
daven
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca, MN
Posts: 8,455
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

I use bulk 4/40 rod (threads just on one end) and have bent so many that I can get them nearly perfect on my first or second try it is a piece of cake without any fancy measuring devices. TLAR works for me, then again, my eyesight is pretty good
daven is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2007, 12:11 PM
  #16  
rmenke
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Merced, Ca., CA
Posts: 2,118
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

CP:

Thats a little harsh, but yet, true. But, if your gonna do it, do it right. Guess a cnc machine shop could build you a perfect jig that may work well on a perfect work bench. Do all your V tail quickees fly the same? If you say yes, "pants on fire". If not, what is the most likely variable? Ok, I might as well admit it. I'm just to lazy to build another crutch just for V tails when storeing one is such a pain. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks.
rmenke is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2007, 02:20 PM
  #17  
diggs_74
Senior Member
 
diggs_74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Emerald, WI
Posts: 1,648
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design

I think it's just like anything else.. Once you do it a few times it gets easier.. I can't tell you how I set the V-tail on my quickies before making a mold for them.. I just lined it up and eye-balled it for about an entire evening before I glued it.. Did they all fly the same, no, not exactly but pretty darn close..
diggs_74 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2007, 02:33 PM
  #18  
MJD
My Feedback: (1)
 
MJD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orangeville, ON, CANADA
Posts: 8,629
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: V tail design


ORIGINAL: 1fasthitman

Why do Q500 planes like the Great Planes Viper use the V tail setup? I have flown the viper on the sim and find its flying characteristics rather annoying. Are there Q500 planes like it with a standard tail?
The required vertical and horizontal stabilizer areas are achieved with less total surface area and fewer fuselage/stabilizer junctions = less drag. Just because a sim does something does not mean it is so in real life. They are only as good as the physics engine and the parameters provided to it.

MJD
MJD is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service