Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Lr-1 wish list

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Old 10-27-2007, 03:44 PM
  #1  
samtech
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Default Lr-1 wish list

Hello Gents,
OK, I managed to destroy my LR-1 last Friday.... dead stick....cartwheel... done. It seems to me that there is a sort of a gap in what is available with this type of plane. Five to six hundred dollar Qm-40s, less expensive Q-500s and large full bodied F1 style planes but not much as far as inexpensive arf's. The Kange f3d (no longer available) and the LR-1 seem to be the only planes that fit in this category. Other manufactures could produce such planes but it's a niche market and the sales volumes don't justify the risk in such a planes production. In other words... It's just not worth it to them. There are planes available if you don't mind building up the wing and painting it yourself but a great many people lack the skills, tools, time and space to build them.
I've been seriously considering manufacturing just this sort of arf. Full composite, painted and relatively inexpensive. But I'm not interested in building a facsimile. The LR-1 has it's problems... Take offs are difficult due to very poor yaw control... At least mine was... torqued to the left violently with the application of power. Landings.... I could land mine pretty well but I made plenty of aborted attempts.... Many people complain about the little planes tendency to start bouncing. In flight I found it to be pretty good but it could use a bit more wing area. As far as top speed.... It could go faster.
So, Tell me what changes you would like to see. At this point I've decided that the wing needs improvement; Slimmer airfoil around 350 square inches and internal linkage for the ailerons. The fuse also needs improvement; More rudder area, internal linkage for the elevator, a thick firewall and a better mounting solution for the tank.
What do you want on your fire breathing plane?
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Old 10-27-2007, 05:15 PM
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vertical grimmace
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I am currently building just such an airplane that I designed. I am stretching the span to 60". I wanted a high aspect ratio for the turns. I am around 400 sq in area. I have gone with an MH 20 airfoil at 9%. I am also adding a little washout. This may reduce top end speed some but it will help with the landings. This aircraft is design around my Jett .30, but any of the hot .25-32 engines would work. The fuselage is now complete and primed but I am being delayed by the wing. I am trying to get the cores cut a from someone else as this is a tricky one and I would like it CNCed.
My motivation here was to have something similar to the xtreme composite Miss Ashley, which is the same company that makes the LR1 but nobody wants to import the Miss Ashley. I decided to make my own
The engine is mounted inverted and bolts up to maple rails. Just like a full bodied control line stunter. This allows a very streamlined yet user friendly front end that can be easy to produce from wood.
I am planning on making 2. Each with a little bit differant wing. I will post photos if anyone would like, but these will be one offs. Sorry, I am not interested in manufacturing kits as I have done that before and it is not worth it.
These planes I know will work well for what I want, and if there is enough interest, I may be able to provide plans once I get them cleaned up.
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Old 10-28-2007, 02:11 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Guys:

Sometimes what looks quick by the very nature of design is just so-so in reality. Over 6 years ago, our club went back for another round of racing with fresh classes and rules. As a measure of encourgament to the new guns, some of the die-hard old guns that dominated things for years were pushed into a "open class" where they could play among themselves without demoralizing the wanta-be's. We started out with our fast pattern type stuff and soon began to modify them to meet the ever increasing speeds. Old famaliar pecking order was established the first year with overall flying ability being king. Over the winter off season, some rather inovating things began to be tested. Oh-oh, here we go again. Back to pushing the rules. Rules left anything under 35 power wide open. Ok, how about a scaled down Q-500 Jett 35 powered, better yet a streemlined Q-500. Balsa flew and the "Yellow Jacket" took shape based on a Viper Q-500 wing with the damaged tips cut off leavilng a 46" span. A tirtle deck added to break up the obvious lines. Maden voiage revealed a solid general design with much too sensative control surface. Elevators were cut down about 50% which took care of the problem, rock solid now. Through 6 years of racing, when the gang began to cose the gap, a few inches came off the wing tips to a current 40" span. The near sports plane handeling character and easy landing remained. At one time, it went up against a Krangke F3d, Jett 50 powered. YJ was faster and much more stable. A LR-1 with Jett 40 racing engne is faster by almost a lap in 10, it self destructed trying to get back to earth and became a non-issue. Last year, the gang closed to about 50/50, the handwriting was on the wall. So, version 11 of the YJ. This one started life with no intent to hide its Q-500 herritage, only slightly higher powered, a Jett 60LX, high wing, streemlined fuse, a 40" span. First maden flights went well, some fine tuning needed and away we may go. Thank god for the throttle control, first few flights had it back to about 1/2 in order to maintain visual contact, clearly in the 200 mph range which it should be with a 60. A faulty switch ended its development, had to dig the engine out with a shovel from around 12". During constrction of #2, I decided I just did not need the speed design 1 gave. The fuse was modified to accommodate a 12 oz tank adding width and length. Wing again a Q-500 composit left at 52" span, operating tail wheel. Result is a fast sports plane that you can start, sit down on the field, taxie out and take off, do a few loops, rolls etc and wait around at 50% throttle or less. Seldom someone comes out to play. The average Nelson-Q-500 is like the lyon playing with a mouse, no contest, that 60. Sort of sitting in the cat bird seat and there is always the 40" wing alternative. Now, after all the above, I am simply trying to convey that that pretty and expensive Forumla type wing may not be the final solution, do not discount the Q-500 wing design modfied and proven from years of use. And, lots of free ones laying around the country. Even cut down to 40" they provide adequate lift for quick turns and reasonable landing speeds, actually low. VG, the moments of your zoomer fuse and a Q-500 wing should be a winner. ENJOY
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Old 10-28-2007, 05:03 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

I just returned from the flying field and I got 1 flight in with my Kangke with the .25 FX installed. Funny how everyone at the field is in awe of how fast they think it is. I would say no more than 120 and that might be pushing it. I really love the smoothness of how that plane flies and I suppose I am trying to capture that. I do believe the Zoomer will be the same way but with a much broader engine to choose from. I think a Jett .60 may be in it's future someday. Right now though I really want a Miss Ashley looking .30 size plane and since they are not available here, I decided to scratch something all my own. http://www.xtremecomposite.com/image.../ASHLEY-II.jpg
Isn't she a beauty! Reports are she flies very good. I just love the long wings.
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Old 10-28-2007, 05:52 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

VG:

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Love it. Now think Jett 35 and you got something scootable. Dave Norman loves his as much as I do mine. Wonderfull little powerhouse full of rpm, faster than most sport 46's, still small block and light. I truly understand your attraction to the Ashley. I have a Rusty VanBaren Ashley on the ceiling waiting for servos, trim paint and maden with the front end modified to accommodate the Jett 60LX. Beautiful piece of hand and composite work by Rusty. Bad part is a guy's gotta know his limitations. Pure desire will not overcome your eyesight going south from cataracts. So, shes going to have to sit for a while hoping the Dr.'s are able to get things back to near normal. At speeds over 130-150, I even scare myself right now, and that puppy is well above that in current format. Darn. At lower speeds, like say 424, you can cope with seeing two airplances flying around where there should be one. Rather exciting when 3-4 guys are going around the corner at the same time. Eany, meany, miney, mo. Oh well, plot, improve designs and learn rolling circles and tumble harriers better for now. ENJOY
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Old 10-28-2007, 06:05 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

So the question remains. What features would you like to see in a $150-200 all composite ARF? I think the LR-1 is a good plane but a copy is not what I wish to produce. But a 140ish (137-142)on the radar gun with a Supertigre GS-45 isn't bad at all. Not record breaking but for a sport engine I think the results speak for themselves.
A complete plane with all the hardware and that will accomodate a sport engine nicely is the idea. Cheap, fast and fun.
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Old 10-28-2007, 08:58 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Samtech,

Look at the Ashley II. Many people want a plane like that. or an Kange F3D, that is no longer produced.

Look at the Zoomer too. look at Vertical Grimmace's build thread.
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

My friend and I have been dying for a good airplane in this catagory. Unfortunately the only thing that fills my requirements is a Q40 which is really expensive for what you get due to lack of economies of scale. I tried the LR1 route and found the wing area way to small and the fusalage way to draggy. Unfortunately neither the wing nor fusalage was especially strong, especially the wing which is an insanely weak layup. My LR1 also had incredibly bad left pull on take off.

For me I love to fly these types of planes with epower because of how easily you can exceed the performance of a Nelson/Jet without any of the hastles of lack of throttle control, tunning changes, start up, launching etc. Power system costs isn't hugely different either. However wingloading does go up considerably due to the weight of batteries and thats why idealy I would want at least 450 sqin's.

I really think the only way to build these planes is a hollow molded full glass layup with a carbon wrapped hard wood spar. Live hinged or at least silicone hinged ailerons (possibly flaps), elevator, rudder. Super streamlined nose without any of the fake engine buldges that many of these pylon racers have. Wing should use a modern effecient airfoil.
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:45 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

I would also like to see something more along the lines of the Kangke F3D-30, rather than the LR-1. To me the LR-1 wing is too small for a .30 sized plane, meaning a too-high wing loading and associated landing challenges, and the cheek cowls (one side mostly hogged out for engine clearance) don't add much to the appearance of the LR-1, IMO, and probably do add a significant amount of drag. The F3D-30 is a lot cleaner-looking to me. Of course the F3D has its shortcomings too; an epoxy-glass fuselage would be a big improvement over the polyester-glass fuselage, and the landing gear needs to either be wing-mounted, or fuselage-mounted and raked back to get the wheels where they belong to avoid bouncy landings. I have an F3D-30 on the workbench and will be using a Jett BSE .35 with integral spinner and substitute the landing gear from a Doddger Q-500 for the stock gear, to get it pretty close to what I really want. I certainly would love to see a similar plane available on the market, you never know when you may suddenly need a replacement ...
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:04 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Zo6kal,
Yeah. Keep it coming. I had about the same thoughts. More wing and less drag. I think I might be keep the nose bulges but may be only on one side... Or sort of a droopy jawed thing... Rotating the bulges down... I am playing with the idea of being about to mount either a side or rear exhaust motor that can accommodate a tuned pipe in cowl. Sort of f3d like.... On a side, exhaust only the top of the head sticking out in the breeze...
As far as the wing...350ish inches. modern airfoil...8%....single or double servo internal linkage... And a whole lot stiffer.
Hinging... cost is going to play into this one a lot. live hinging is cool but may not be feasible due to time investment and product loss (opps cut to deep, linkage is binding, etc) I'm leaning toward pocket hinging. Slightly more expense in materials but less time requirements.
The fuse... again yeah. Needs to be stronger... but still needs to be as light as possible. I'm thinking sandwich PVC foam filets for extra strength. It light, strong and time investment in minimal. Oh yeah, I only play with epoxy. I'll build molds and fix friends cars with polyeaster but I keep it away from my airplanes. I'm planning on using SP ampreg. It's really strong stuff. Hard to get though.... I've been getting it from Denmark.... Anybody know of a US distributor?
Delta, got anymore thoughts on landing gear? If I can get a good deal... I'm thinking carbon fibre. To be perfectlly honest.. I don't have the tooling available to punch aluminum gear at a reasonable cost so it's going to be glass or carbon. What about a tail wheel? I had seen a post on here somewhere that a guy put the tail wheel inside the rudder... Looked really cool but hard to do right. Might be do-able...

VG. The zoomer build thread is fantastic. I'm really enjoying it. Beautiful craftsmanship!
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:44 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Sam,

Don't even bother with torque tubes and all that complexity in the wing. It is extra production work and only gives more room for slop and limited mixing options. Putting servos in the wing is the easiest and most flutter proof way to go. I have made my own servo covers before out of carbon and its real real easy or you can buy them for cheap. For horns I just cut mine out of G10 glass circuit board and just slot the control surface on just one side and epoxy them in. This is super strong and flutter proof and has been proven on many a dynamic soaring plane to airspeeds above 360 miles per hour. Plus you can use spoilers to help bring a heavy bird down with two servos.
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Old 10-28-2007, 11:27 PM
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samtech
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Well... The reason I'm planing on using internal linkage in the wing is.... only part speed. The thin airfoil at its thickest point will only accomidate a mirco servo, also the spar box will be running right though that point of the wing. However you will have mixing options. The lay out will make possible the use of one or if you wish, two servos. The two servo setup will allow mixing (flapions or spoilerions).
But yeah, it is complex. As far as cost.... well..... I'm not sure which way is more cost effective... More hand trimmed parts (hole in wing and cover) or more loss potental (part perminatly installed wrong = trashed wing).
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:12 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

I really doubt the wing will be thin enough not to accomodate a 5125mg, DS-168, Voltz Maxi or many other servos .4" or thinner with plenty of torque and have been proven on much bigger control surfaces to much higher speeds and non laminar flows. My buddy even put Diamond D60's in the wings of his F5D nemesis with minimal buldge and that wing was razor thin. As usual you want to put these guys behind the spar box.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Well, I contacted xtreme composites and they replied! They told me I could personally oreder a carton of 4 Miss Ashley racers and they would ship them to me. The total after shipping comes to $310.00 a plane. I think this is a little rich for my blood but it is at least posible to get them here.

So Samtech, are you looking at producing a model? That would be great and if you do I would hope you lean toward a high aspect ratio wing. They will hold speed around the course better.
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Old 10-29-2007, 02:18 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Did they not offer a 20% discount with the purchase of 4?

Here is something from the AshleyII post

Finally received an email back from extreme composite about this plane.

This is what they emailed me
quote:

The cost for one ASHLEY II with shipping to your place is US$160+170 = US$330.- But if you order 4 sets, we can give you 20% discount on the model price = US$512.- and the shipping cost will be US$490.-.


The shipping is outrageous. I sent them another email about the shipping. There has got to be a cheaper way to ship this to the states.
Is any one interested in buying one of these? It would take myself and 3 other people to get it here and it would cost $250 plus shipping from my house to you.

Please PM me if you are interested.

Maybe we can get an alternate way to ship these. $490 is CRAZY
I will let you know if they respond with a cheaper shipping rate.
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Old 10-29-2007, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

No, they did not mention a 20% discount. I keep hoping to see them show up here, but I think they are too expensive. It sounds like the LR1 quality is not quite up there and really the Kangke is not very good either. Mine had many seems around the wing and fin joints that had to be glued together.
The airplanes to look at for quality are the electric racers. I had a Sunracer from Esprit models and it was absolutely perfect. The fuselage is layed up in Kevlar. If one of those could be enlarged and a hot .30 size motor installed, you would have something really fast. I lost mine to radio glitch from my electronics. http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp...OD&ProdID=2865

Check it out!
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:28 PM
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samtech
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

VG. Yes, I'm looking to do a limited production run. The first run will only be 5-10 units. Do some testing and make changes if needed. After that (if I can make it into my target window; less than $200) I'll make them for stock. I don't antisapate these things to fly off the selves. Maybe 60 units a year at best. It's a very small niche market and they won't be race legal so sales volumes will be slim. However, they will be available to the average Joe that wants a go fast plane. Nothing really special needed to put it together. Sport engines, mini servos (HS-85) and some epoxy... just like a normal arf.
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:09 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

I would like to see something in a 40 sized built for very fast sport flying rather than just rounding pylons. I would prefer more aileron authority than what your average q500 has and give a big thumbs down to v-tails. Something like the Lr-1 but in a 40 sized airframe would be perfect, but for me the rear exhaust engine would be a deal breaker. I think you should build it for an off the shelf OS or TT .40-46 engine. As far as engine blisters or no engine blisters I'm game either way, just make it aerodynamic and cool looking.

PS You can probably put me in for buying one

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Old 10-29-2007, 09:16 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Samtech, on the landing gear, carbon fiber would be great. I used the Doddger gear on my F3D-30 because it was available. If you are seriously contemplating molding a completely all-composite airplane, making a negative mold off of a Doddger or similar aluminum landing gear should be a piece of cake for you. Might as well mold a recess for the gear into the fuselage while you're at it; on the F3D-30 the gear is a bolt-on afterthought, and not faired in at all. Of course, if you move the gear to the wing, there are plenty of commercially available (straight, not raked) aluminum and carbon fiber gear on the market, and there would be no need to make your own. Personally, I would prefer the gear mounted to the fuselage, but that's just me, and not a deal-breaker.
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Old 10-30-2007, 12:09 AM
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samtech
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Tell me what you think. This is sort of the idea I had about putting the pipe inside the cowling and fitting both side and rear exhaust... No flamming about the art work.... sculpt yes... draw....no.
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Old 10-30-2007, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

I really think you should mount the gear on the wings. Use short aluminum bet at a 90 degree angle. Just like my Zoomer. I also think you should make the front of the fuselage rounder without the bumps. Like the Kangke f3d. The magic will be with the wing though.
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:15 PM
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Hmm, I take back what I said earlier, if you're going to go with the in-cowl muffler you should go with the rear exhaust only. I think it would be better to keep the nose narrower, something more along what the German speed guys are doing.
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Old 10-30-2007, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

I too like the in cowl exhaust. I agree with JEff. This would make for a better set up.
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Old 10-30-2007, 10:02 PM
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samtech
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

Sounds like you guys want to ditch the nose buldges all together. That actuelly makes things a lot easier. I thought the in cowl muffler would be cool but a major pain in the ass to pull off. Both have there advantages and disadvantages. In cowl equels more frontal area but less drag...and cooling problems....and mess....and a fuse thats jammed full of stuff (no space). Out in the breeze has better cooling more drag, more choices in mufflers and less pieces (less weight).
Out in the breeze wins! But I might be able to add an optional belly pan. Mount the engine strait down and add the pan... Poof, it's a rear exhaust. I think the majority of people have side exhaust but I want to please as many as possible.
Now then... do we want the landing gear on the wing or swept back from the fuse??? The technique I plan to use might not be well suited to putting the gear on the wing... hard landing = peeled wing. On the fuse would be stronger and would take a fairly hard shot... Tell me this; do we just want it not to bounce on landings or is it an astetic thing? If it's the bounce, I can fix it... if it's the look I'll see about making it peel resistant. How about the tail wheel? Do you guys even want it? Regular ol'get at the hobby shop wheel?
This is great stuff! Market research with out all that market research stuff! I love it!
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:44 AM
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Default RE: Lr-1 wish list

there are wrap around headers available to make side exhaust engines have rear mounted pipes, the CL guys have been doing it that way for years.. I like inverted mounting with optional belly pan, thay way you can go commando or cover it up.

[link=http://www.aeroproduct.net/pricelist.htm]side to rear headers[/link]
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