Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Outlaw Build E/Lite

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Old 03-15-2008, 06:45 AM
  #1  
c/f
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Default Outlaw Build E/Lite

I've had Jerry's Outlaw plans for 13 years and never had enough rainy days to get one started so the EXTREMEFLIGHT ARF was a HOLY COW, I got to get one. I pitted with Jerry @ E-fest and told him watch out next time we meet. Chris Hanson was peddling these @ Perry so I scored a real deal.

I always strive to build any model with my own unique style so this thread is for things I deviated from the original instructions.

First up was the hatch, As an E_conversion a more user friendly hatch latch needed to be in order. By putting on a Carbon Fibre (C/F)
doubler of .068" and a tongue of C/F I made a simple catch into main fuse hatch area. I put a mating slit in main fin prior to gluing into fuse to allow for longer tongue catch. I then cut the vertical fin short on the front point side just enough to allow for the use of a 10-32 nylon thumb screw, which was tapped into fuse hardwood hatch area. With some thin Ca and a scab of 3/32 ply underneath you can get ample amounts of thread area.
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Old 03-15-2008, 06:57 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Next up is the need for cooling of E gear, so holes were added to front firewall and a exit hole added to underneath side using a piece of clear 1" tubing from fish tank pump use, you can cut the tube at angle to get a nice streamlined exit. Then painted to match. The firewall cut out was easily accomplished with a 1/8" ROTO ZIP bit in a Dremel and working infront of a vacuum hose to insure it does not end up inside fuse. Once rough cut it was sanded and thin Ca was used to strengthen inside wood as much as was accessible.
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Old 03-15-2008, 07:04 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Next up was rudder servo to clean up drag I like to combine draggy areas versus spread them out, so I needed to drop the rudder servo in its mount and slit lower fin to allow for servo arm. I had to use a low profile JR9011 servo here, by removing gusset on sero plastic I Ca a peice of maple wood to act as a clamp once servo was installed from inside of fuse to give a nice flush mount outside surface. Using a 1" arm on 3/4" horns it provided the recomended throws.
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Old 03-15-2008, 07:21 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Now comes the business end. I've been doing electric for 5 years now and have not used Nitro so selling off my LAST JETT BSE .30 was no regrets.

A powerplant in electrics is a combined output of all the componenets, MOTOR/ESC/BATTERIES/Plugs,wires. with these known weights and known thrust you can get to a power to weight combo that makes for an ECLECTIC model.

So doing my research IMHO a 36mm motor and 50-75 amps worth of batteries 6s is the sweet spot for this model. This is currently a AXI GOLD motor of 2826/10, on 6s 3000MAH Lipo, prop is a APC N racing series 7.8X7. @ 32amps, 720WATTS.


The speed control is a Turnigy 60amp with a UBEC which means its a switching built in ESC that is fine on the input battery voltages up to 6S.

The motor was spaced off the firewall with my own custom motor mount which has aloot of features to aid in cooling to run this motor beyond its specs. The motor mounts to an aluminum face plate to heatsink the heat away and cooling holes in front and sides of mount allow air to pass thru into fuse. The Turnigy sits in airsteam as well.

I always use direct soldered motor leads to ESC and I added a second set of battery input wires to help pump up the amps on smaller gauge wire and doubling of the plug ins surface area since I get to 6S by using 3S X2 for the packs.
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Old 03-15-2008, 07:33 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

In finalizing weights and balance and final thoughts I ended up cutting off the fin tabs below the hatch side as the batteries needed to be rearward for C/g. The final weight came in at 3lbs 6oz or 54oz, or 1530g.

It seems to me that nose heavy conditions will be the norm to combat as a E conversion. I used full size servos so this ended up being an absolute for ballast purposes. As an E-conversion it would be best to push the rudder servo rearward so that all usable space in front of main vertical fin is available for batteries. My lite build ended up perfect in that the center of the batteries are centered on the c/g location.

I am using JR 4131 servos for control and Futaba FASST radio. Not shown but a cautionary tail recomended 70oz servo specs and 45deg throw to accomplish the wild stuff. A servo only moves 30deg each direction so I used 1" arms and 3/4" horns of another liter setup not shown as of yet. So in general numbers using my 98oz servos and reducing the effective torq by 25% from mechanical geometry, that gets me near the 70oz. What is unique with this design is the wild aerobatics with 45deg throw on a high speed model.

I used thin Ca on servo hatches and mounting holes to stiffen all the wood up.

Here final hatch layout pix.
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Old 03-15-2008, 08:18 AM
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freakingfast
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Well we now know what is the largest battery that can be stuffed into an Outlaw is! LOL.
I like what you did with the rudder servo, you got me re-thinking my install.
Nice job, shows innovation, two thumbs up
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Old 03-15-2008, 09:00 AM
  #7  
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

hmmm I have a 2826/10 and a 5S 2200 and a PH80 laying around....

While I'm very interested in what this set up will do I thing the 2826/10 really isn't meant for a set up like this... I have a Neu 1509/2.5D that would be sweet in an Outlaw...

But the bottom line that some people have forgotten is the Outlaw is an Aerobat not really an all out speed plane, thinking like that I think th AXI is going to be as good if not better/ much better than a .32 to .36 glow set up. Please video it if you can.

20k rpm on a 7 pitch prop is going to be wild!!
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Old 03-15-2008, 10:38 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Thanx guys,

I had to edit that rpm/MPH, my tach has to be screwy, thats to low of watts into that prop for that speed. Anyways it does pull out of my hands in vertical so its more than 54oz thrust thats all I know for sure till I get a tach other than mine. Good enough for maiden.

As for battery bay in the photo there is nothing inside the fuse forward of the front hatch seam. here is a photo of 20/30C 2300 sized packs, as you can see it can fit a 2up of 2300 6S to fill the entire bay. It balances nose heavy but for speed it would be fine, It may loose some elevator authority is my guess as the C/g is really calculated for the extreme aerobatic flight envelope.

With this amount of batteries the weight climbs to 4lbs 1oz but that would be 100 amps of 6s power for 3 minutes with some throttle management.

The ARC brand of motors are working with 36mm innrunners know and it would end up liter than the AXI and it will be available in 900Kv-1900Kv winds.

This plane is going to turn some heads even more so as an electric as the motor is less likely to flame out in extreme G manuevers. A carb or a pump cannot overcome Gforce over atmosphere to keep your fuel flowing.[X(]
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Old 03-15-2008, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Heres finished rudder linkage. I dropped down to 5/8" on the horn to reduce throws on servo given the geometry. I'm getting over 45deg throw on 70% EPA.

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Old 03-15-2008, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

And a final weight saving feature. That bag of hardware made me ill when I seen its bulk size for drag and weight on the scale 2oz.
So I used some time proven linkage from my RC Combat days when I ran 100+MPH JETT 30 powered combat ships and needed hardware to withstand speed of 68" of ailerons and midair breakages of horns.

(Believe it or not in combat duty the Dubro HD servo arms broke easier than stock JR nylon I can only guess they were to brittle with impacts)

I use Kraft/Hayes clevis/wire combo paired with a mating C/F tube over sleeve with aluminum sleeves Ca to outside diameter near ends to insure it does not split lengthwise. The Kraft clevis is plastic with a metal pin. In combat without a silicone keeper they never opened up in flight. The other end is of a traditional Z bend. Tite and lite

The horns are 3 screw bolt thru, Robart Ball link style with the ball Ca in position.
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Old 03-15-2008, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite


c/f

Really enjoyed your build up to this point of selling your little Jett 30. Am sure the new owner is overjoyed and will run the thing for another 5 years, and it will still be tight. Excuse me for a few moments while I go get sick.----- Admit that I love my foamys, AJ Extra and Katana MD, building a Multiplex Fun Jett etc., but they will have to pry my Jett engines out of my cold dead hands. Not for sale, loan or any other thing that would take them out of sight, hands, and shop. Am jazzed with the outlaw airframe and see where my 74th birthday money is going to go shortly. Will need something in the delta design to play with, the funjett is very small, designed for 140 plus, anticipated longivity is short considering deminishing flying ability.

Ok, all you wing-thing pilots must have some sort of pvc pipe ramp launcher that is a proven system. Need one in the worst way that will accomodate both tractor and pusher style wings. A dolley is out for a pusher type do to the needed clearance. How would you like to hand launch a delta wing with Jett 35 to 60 screaming up front for a crazy 74 year old half blind guy? Yea, me neither. Most of my flying buds trust a bunch & would, but I'm not comfortable with asking at this point. A pic would be most appreciated. Promise not to fly it at your field!! ENJOY
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:27 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Menke,

I still have one Sport Jett .40 on a RevOlution Q500. And a NIB Nelson .50, but JET A and 40lbs of thrust gets it done for me in the speed MOJO these days.

Anyhow I ended up blinigng out the front end with a cheel cowl. I laid a piece of 6MM Depron on the firewall, traced the outline, then temporary tach glued it in place. I then used some 2mm Depron and heated up with a heat gun and wrapped it to shape of nose. Once cool I glued it to 6mm then made a second rib to narrow the front end more. Then I just taped it on the fuse with blenderm and cover wrapped it all with Black sign vinyl, added a few stickers to bling it out, form and function with litte weight.

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Old 03-16-2008, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Very nice!
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Old 03-16-2008, 01:59 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

c/f, to what extent does this motor require cooling ? Would any full cowling (with some naca inlets here and there) provide sufficent cooling ?
Thanks.
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Maiden today was awesome. The Axi was easy on 3300MAH 6S batteries and the slow flight in harrier mode was oblivios of the battery weight. I moved battery WAY forward to see how a 5000MAH changeup in C/G would be and it was a tad heavy on the elevator for slow flight but High speed had no effect on feel.

This thing was harrier flying around with less than 20% throttle @ 54oz. The ARC 36mm will be the ticket for sure because of a 900KV-1900KV range it will only be a decison on amps/volts/duration as you will be able to max out the entire fuse bay with batteries.

This ARF model has to be far superior than a kit build. Flat spins inverted could become motionless and even climb to my amazement. Knifedge has some coupling easily overcome with proper inputs. Inverted flew with minimal elevator and plenty of authority for inverted harrier. I could fly so slow that the motor with no brake could actually come to a stop for landing.

The most awesome part was I could actually hold the vertical fin at the seem and power up then launch at a 30deg angle and it would fly out straight away in a climbout. NO nose drop, no Wing dip, NO HELPER........KOOL............

Get one before there all gone it takes forever for second container to hit the water....
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:14 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Stryk.

The motor was never even in question for cooling. This is an outrunner and with 100oz thrust off a propeller, no problem. The battery bay however does appear that pushing lighter batteries and getting them cooled in flight may be a problem.

IE: With todays temps in the 50's propped to 40 amps 6s.

I ran some 2300MAH 20/30C batteries and they ended up around 110-118 Deg after a flight with throttle management. I wanted to see what a lighter setup flight envelope could be.

Then I ran some 3000MAH 20/30C batteries and they still showed 90-100 deg temps.

Then a ran some 3300MAH 30/40C batteries and they were 70-80deg.

I will try to think of how to get more exit air sq area in a clean way, But for now its only a question of battery temps. ESC was 70-80deg as was the motor, not a big priority at the momment.
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

c/f, thank you for your answer regarding cooling. However, I have made a quick search regarding the e-setup and I have come to the conclusion that the setup you use is more expensive than a Macs piped Jett .35 with which you don't have to bother with throttle management (only have to care about wiping that oil after use [:-]). Can you confirm that ?
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Oh and I hadn't seen the hatch attachement, it's roughy what I was talking about in the glow-version thread. I think I'll come with such a trick for my glow version, so much user friendly and durable. In order to lower drag, why didnt you install the servo on its side with only the servo arm protruding ? That has been suggested in another Outlaw thread...


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Old 03-17-2008, 09:27 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Stryk

An ARC 36MM motor $75 tops, I paid $50 for this AXI on RCG 4sale, Turnigy ESC $60, 33000MAH 6s $75.

20%-30% nitor per gallon $25 4 ever,

Another + for Eflite is the motor wont quit as it oblivious to Gforces. You will soon start to see threads concerning how to keep the motor running on the OUTLAW in the HIGH G capable manuevers of this model. It's not even about chasing the Fuel with the clunk, I make my own JETT bubbleless tanks and have the syringe but with G forces you negate the atmospheric push of your fuel to the carb, This is not cured with any type of pump but only a bladder, YUK they suk.

This model can snap into an inverted flat spin instantly from 100+MPH to 0 and then with proper throws you can start cranking up the spin rate and actually climb in an inverted flat spin. This type of extreme manuever is a tough job for a nitro to pull off.

PS, JETTS "DO NOT" LIKE any lean runs for a fraction of a minute and its TOAST on the piston liner, Dubb likes that kind of work $90 part/$45 labor, its an expensive road to hoe, been there done that, I've owned 7 JETTS and 3 Nelsons, Only one Sport Jett .40 left. and a NIB Nelson .50 no looking back here.......
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:37 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

c/f,
that sounds interesting indeed. I may then opt for a bladder tank whenever such problems do occur. We'll see . There's another Outlaw scheme that I do like () that could eventually be converted to lipo. I'll try the glow one first.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:06 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Hey C/F....
has microdan got our motors figured out yet?

would like to race at the RCRC event in HUntsville!!
your coming, right?
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

He told me they were on this weekends agenda, Hes got 100amps worth of 4s batteries and a 80a Turnigy to see what he can do beyond 800watts.

Its gonna be nutz in a fresh PROJETI @ SEFF
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Evan (given your experience with the Outlaw your answer should be valuable), did you encounter that engine running problem during high 'G' flight maneuvers ? Did you install any bladder type tank ? Thx !

c/f : we're waiting for a nice flight video
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:49 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

No motor issues at all. I run Sullivan SS6 tanks in mine... I run pressure from the header...
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: Outlaw Build E/Lite

Thank you Evan ! [8D]

Is that the SS6 ? http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXFU49&P=7
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