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Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

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Old 01-08-2009, 01:28 PM
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ChrisAttebery
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Default Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Hey guys,

I've decided jump up to the local 120 warbird class that's going to make it's debut this year. The class rules have not been formally announced yet, but my understanding is that it will allow a minimum wing area of 550in. This allows the Phoenix Strega I've got to meet the rules. The motors allowed are any FI/SE 2 stroke or 4 stroke under 1.2ci. There will be no ducted fan or dedicated speed motors allowed, this includes Jett.

I plan on sport flying the plane 99% of the time, but I'd like to be able to race it in this class on occasion. The options I'm currently weighing are the YS 110, an OS or YS 91 Heli motor with a tuned pipe, or the 120AX with a tuned pipe. They are all about the same weight with the exhaust systems.

A friend of mine is running a 120 AX with a tuned pipe on 15%. The 120AX turns an APC 11x12 at around 12.5k RPM on the ground. It unloads quite a bit in the air because it has been radared in the 145mph range (maybe 15k).

The YS 110 is reported to turn an APC 13x13N at 13k on the ground using 60% nitro. I'd imagine that it would gain at least another 1k in the air. That would put it in the 140mph range also.

The 91 heli motors are turning a 10x10 or 11x9 at 16k on the ground. I'd assume that they will unload about 1k in the air. On paper that is more HP than the 120AX is making but how it translates in the air in this airframe is unknown.

I like the idea of using the YS 110 as it's a proven setup, the exhaust system is much smaller and it will have that nice 4 stroke sound. On the other hand it will need lots of nitro to make the big HP needed at the races. The 91 Heli motors also intrigue me. I'm not a big fan of the tuned pipe hanging on the side of the plane, but I think that this may be the winning ticket. The fuel and propellers of the 91 will be the most economical, while the 110 props will be 4-5X more expensive and race fuel will be about 1.5-2X the cost.

So, what am I missing? What do you think would be the best option for racing? Which would be the most user friendly? Is there another option I should be looking into?

Thanks for your help guys,



Chris
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:00 PM
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Flyboy Dave
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

....if I had to roll the dice Chris, I might try an OS 1.08 FSR....piped.

FBD.
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Old 01-10-2009, 11:54 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

The YS 110 13X13N @ 13,000 is 3.65 HP, P.S.(pitch speed) 160 MPH. Dang that’s impressive. No wonder many seem to last one season on 60%.

The 91 heli motor 11X9 @ 16 is 3.32 HP P.S. 136 MPH, I think you will need at least this disk area.
The 91 heli motor 10X10 @ 16 is 3.5 HP P.S 151 MPH. Again, more disk area?

The 120 AX 11X 12 @ 12.5 is only 2.08 HP P.S.142 MPH not bad if it unloads a ton.

My OS 91 FX on marine tuned pipe 11X9 @14250 with 2.35 HP, I’ll try a 11X12 on it to see the numbers.

The OS 1.08 FSR is rated at 3HP

Webra makes a 120 heli but its rated at 3.6 HP, the tuned pipe would be huge, and I don’t know if they will allow that engine. Hard to beat that YS 110.

The Helis and the 110 will suck down fuel, even with a larger tank you will have limited flight time.
Decisions, Decisions
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Well, I guess I'll find out the hard way if the Heli motors can keep up. I found a pristine YS 91 ST and bought it.

I think that it will unload quite a bit on the 11x9. I'm hoping for about 17.5k in the air. I know it should hit 16k on the ground. We'll see.

A couple things on the YS 110 numbers. I was informed that my RPM figures we're optimistic and the narrow props are not as efficient as the standard blades, so the YS numbers are kind of deceiving. I also just found out that the APC 13x13N isn't made anymore. Most of the guys are running a APC 13x10 or 13x11.

I think I'll be in good shape, like I said 99% of the time it will be sport flown anyway. I'm looking forward to owning a YS. I've worked on them and they are some serious pieces of engineering. Worst case is I'll try it out and sell it again. I got a really good deal, so I can probably get close to what I paid for it.

In any case this plane is smaller than that WM P-51 that you've got the 70H in. I should be able to pull a bit more pitch with the same diameter. You we're able to beat a 110 with your setup, at least one heat, so in theory my setup should do the same.

We'll see...
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Old 01-11-2009, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.


ORIGINAL: ChrisAttebery

Well, I guess I'll find out the hard way if the Heli motors can keep up. I found a pristine YS 91 ST and bought it.
Ooooh! Nice choice!
ORIGINAL: ChrisAttebery
I think that it will unload quite a bit on the 11x9. I'm hoping for about 17.5k in the air. I know it should hit 16k on the ground. We'll see.
From what I've seen most under square props unload well. I think you are on the mark with that prop selection.
ORIGINAL: ChrisAttebery
A couple things on the YS 110 numbers. I was informed that my RPM figures we're optimistic and the narrow props are not as efficient as the standard blades, so the YS numbers are kind of deceiving. I also just found out that the APC 13x13N isn't made anymore.
I did adjust for the narrow for the 110's hp numbers, but I didn't know the 13X13N is gone.

I use a 16 oz. Sullivan cylinder style fuel tank in my WM with some cutting and adding to the first former. I don't know what will fit in the Phoenix and I'd pressure test what you use because of the YS's pressurized fuel system. Flooded electronics have killed many planes.

Should be a fun plane!
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:44 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.


ORIGINAL: ChrisAttebery

The motors allowed are any FI/SE 2 stroke or 4 stroke under 1.2ci. There will be no ducted fan or dedicated speed motors allowed, this includes Jett.

Chris
Jett only builds sport engines. (with the exception of the Q-500 and QM40 engines.).

The YS91 or YS80 heli engines are something you will want to look at.

But its hard to beat a YS110 or an older YS120 for this sorta job.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

I found a pristine YS 91 ST and bought it.
I was wondering who beat me to it..[:@]
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:10 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.


ORIGINAL: bob27s
Jett only builds sport engines. (with the exception of the Q-500 and QM40 engines.).
While I agree with you, the guys writing the rules do not.

ORIGINAL: bob27s
But its hard to beat a YS110 or an older YS120 for this sorta job.
4 strokes are not popular in warbird racing in our series. There aren't any classes that support them. We don't use a sliding scale for wing area like the RCPRO guys do. There's a minimum wing area and maximum motor size, that's basically it. I'd like to see a YS 110 run against a 120AX or 91 heli motor. Maybe this year I will.

I got a drive washer ordered from YS today. I need to get a header and pipe from MAC's and I should be ready to rock.

Thanks guys,


Chris
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:23 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Hi

Be careful with the tailfeathers. They are very open...... I broke the horozontal stab using a fan engine on this bird. But it was very fast and very groovy. If I were to build another, I would use slab constructed tailfeathers. With a large four stroker, it can take the tail weight.....

randy
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:48 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Thanks for the input. I sheeted the top of the stab and elevators with 1/32" ply. They are much stronger than stock. I also added a 1/4" spruce joiner between the elevators to stiffen the connection between them.

How did the wing hold up to the added power? Did you beef it up at all?
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:44 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

I haven't needed to strengthen the wing on any of my Stregas. The landing gear block is another matter. I hate the idea of cutting open a new pre-covered wing but if you want it to be carefree, you'd be wise to strengthen the blocks. Most guys cut open the top of the wing and add some reinforcement. If you take it easy on landing it will last for awhile in stock form. These do groove very nicely. Post some video once you get it flying. I'd love to see what one of these do with a hot big block 2 stroke.

Blessings, Terry
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:46 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Well, I just got the rules for the 120 class and Heli motors are specifically outlawed. [:@]

So, I'm going to attempt to sell the YS and look at a OS or Webra 120.

Back to the drawing board...

I did talk to a friend that races the Strega with a BVM 91 DF motor in it. He also said the wing is strong enough, just make sure to glass the center section. I'll take a look at the landing gear blocks while I've got the covering off the wing.
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Old 01-13-2009, 05:01 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

I have had several of the blocks split so if you already have the covering off it is a simple thing to cut open the balsa sheeting above the blocks and epoxy some wood in there to beef it up. The ribs are strong enough, it is the blocks that split. Check into that OS 120. I wish I could be more help with the big 2 strokes. I just haven't had much experience with them since they don't fit in our rules. There are a few 90 size engines that are quite fast and have a 60 size case. Super Tigre, Thunder Tiger, Magnum and OS come to mind. Thunder Tiger, GMS and OS make 120's. The GMS 120 looks interesting but I don't know anyone who has one. Keep us posted, I am interested in what you find out.

Blessings, Terry
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:16 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.


ORIGINAL: ChrisAttebery

Well, I just got the rules for the 120 class and Heli motors are specifically outlawed. [:@]

So, I'm going to attempt to sell the YS and look at a OS or Webra 120.

Back to the drawing board...

I did talk to a friend that races the Strega with a BVM 91 DF motor in it. He also said the wing is strong enough, just make sure to glass the center section. I'll take a look at the landing gear blocks while I've got the covering off the wing.
I think they have been reading this thread! LOL
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:04 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Hey Chris,


Just had time to read some post on RCU. Saw you bought a helicopter engine...sorry dude. Didnt know. The DF engines and Helicopter engines turn such high RPMS, it was brought up not to allow. I would love to run my DF engines as I have 4 know, but not legal. I have to buy all new engines.

Jett engines are legal according to the rules so if Jett makes a .91 to 1.20 engine FI / SE , you should be in good shape. I think you are going to see quite a few 4-strokes show up. I know Mark Sumich is running a 1.10 in his Strega, Bryan has a Y.S. 1.20 in a World Models Spitfire, and a couple others running .91's in various aircraft. I know there will be a handful of O.S. 1.20AX's as well. Mark Stevenson and John Lockwood both have W.M. Dago Reds with new wings. Rick Maida has a Dymond Bearcat with a GMS 1.20. I think Richard Verano may come and play and he has a Y.S. 1.20. His sponsor makes him run it. LOL ( He owns Y.S. Parts and Performance) I will have two planes, one with a O.S. 1.20 and a Y.S. 120.

The Nitro needs to be run on the Y.S. engines. I picked up 5gallons of Nitro and 5 Methonel to help the expense.

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Old 01-13-2009, 11:25 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

There's a big difference between an ABC DF motor and a ringed heli engine, but I guess debating that topic isn't going to get me anywhere.

From what you're saying it sounds like the 120 class will basically kill off the unlimiteds, right?

I was trying not to bother you too much about the class rules. I guess I should have tried to call you and get the real scoop before I bought anything. Hopefully I can unload it fairly quick and start looking for something else.

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Old 01-13-2009, 11:37 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

....I'll still go for a big block OS 1.08 FSR, piped....on 20 or 30% nitro....

....it will pull some heavy prop.

FBD.
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Old 01-14-2009, 01:49 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Chris,

I have been flying a OS 91FX on my Strega for a while now. Freakingfast is correct about the 16 oz. Sullivan cylinder style fuel tank it will fit with minor effort... I just epoxied the fuse were I cut the formers down to strengthen it up.....Works wonderful.... I'm running the ultrathrust sport muffler and due to the length had to cut some of the wing were it mates to the fuse down and make a pocket sort of with a exhaust diverter to vent it away from the fuse...Works great... The mod in no way weaken the wing and it has held up well. I would say she flies in the 120 to 130 range with a APC 11X9 prop which really wouldn't make you much of a threat in racing....I don't think it would be what you want out of it....Lastly the landing gear is fairly strong... It will hold up under the conditions that I use it for...Meaning my setup....A larger motor and I would think some type of strengthening would be needed.....These planes are real mighty mites and a joy to fly...You must remember to watch you weight as it will kill speed.... For a $109 dollar ARF with pinned control surfaces already installed it's one of the best buys as well as planes out there......Gofastz
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Old 01-14-2009, 02:10 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Chris,

One last thing I should mention....I had a mishap after landing were a rookie landed without notice to anyone of his intentions.... While I began to exit the runway he clipped my wing to the Strega damaging it beyond repair....I ordered a replacement and was very disappointed at what came from Tower Hobbies....The wing comes in a different form.... You must shave the forward edge were the fuse mates to the wing as well as install dowel pins to secure the wing to the fuse meaning everything must be prefitted to include your mounting bolt holes and screws... What a bummer.....But I do love this plane and it is a real head turner at the field....Gofastz
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Old 01-14-2009, 02:30 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

First the Jetts are banned because they are too racy, now they are OK? Now heli motors are banned because they are high RPM engines like (sic) ducted fan engines.......HaaaWWWhhaattt???

Tell-ya what Chris, hold off spelling out your plans here, in open forum until you have the rules in your hands and finalized.


I was only joking earlier when I said "I think they have been reading this thread!" but this may be why they over reacted to heli engines, one of the few engines that will give YS 110 on 60% a run for the money.

I've got some new Ideas for you Chris so I PM'ed you....never know who's watching
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Old 01-14-2009, 03:04 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.


ORIGINAL: gofastz

Chris,

One last thing I should mention....I had a mishap after landing were a rookie landed without notice to anyone of his intentions.... While I began to exit the runway he clipped my wing to the Strega damaging it beyond repair....I ordered a replacement and was very disappointed at what came from Tower Hobbies....The wing comes in a different form.... You must shave the forward edge were the fuse mates to the wing as well as install dowel pins to secure the wing to the fuse meaning everything must be prefitted to include your mounting bolt holes and screws... What a bummer.....But I do love this plane and it is a real head turner at the field....Gofastz
Sound like you would have been better off just getting a whole new plane.
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:27 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Chris, Where is information on this class racing? Any schedule or locations planned out yet?
"Local" is this NoCal?
Thanks Rob
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

In all honesty, it sounds like they need to just spec what engines they will allow. If you say any FI/SE engine, that should cover it. Who cares if it's a heli motor or not? What's is wrong with "speed" engines? Isn't this a race? I think whoever is making up these rules needs to rethink things and stop making it so complicated. I can't remember the last time we had an issue over engines at an RCPRO warbird race. We don't have any make or manufacturer limits.

It sounds like some of the folks making up these rules already have the engines they want to use and are making sure someone doesn't show up with something faster.

I don't get it.
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Old 01-14-2009, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

Hi Guys,

I think there is some "Lack of information" going on here.


There are 4 classes of racing. Due to the fact our club is more 2-stroke oriented, the rules that Sacramento use and RCPro have a huge disavantage against 4-strokes. It has always been this way. There is no 60 size engine that will compete with a Y.S. 1.10 or 1.20. We have raced these rules for years and have been very succesful. Up until this year, we changed the stock class to 75 Warbird and added the new 120 Warbird.

We have a 46 Warbird class for smaller warbirds ( 475sq in ) with up to a .46 engine.

We have a 75 Warbird which is any warbird from VQ Models or World Models with a .75 engine. You can use Tower, O.S. or Supertiger ( The stock class )

We have a 120 Warbird ( New class this year ) with minimum 550sq in wing area and .91 to a 1.20 engine. 2-strokes have to be front intake side exhaust. It was added somewhere mid last year not to allow Heli or ducted fan engines. These engines are used in Unlimited. Some people are freaking out that 120 Warbird even has 4-strokes in it. They are afraid of having to spend $400 and use 60% nitro to be competitive....well that is racing. Up until last month the 4-stroke wasnt allowed, but was changed because we are trying to attract Sac and LA guys.


For the big boys, we have Unlimited Warbird which is 520 sq in and a max of 1.6 engine...anything goes basically. If you want to run 4-stroke, helicopter engines, ducted fan engines or custom built engines, have a blasts. Guys who have raced this class have used heli engines and ducted fan engines and now there is only 3 of us in it. These two types of engines killed the class. People are afraid of the high RPM engines. Also it is a saftey issue as guys were not paying attention to props and throwing blades on the ground or in the air. I have so much money invested in this class, that this year unless we get some new blood, there is only going to be Mark Sumich and I racing Unlimtied. So if someone wants to use the .91 heli engine, they can race Unlimited. The airframes are basically the same in both Unlimited and 120 Warbird, but 120 Warbird has 30 sq inches more. The Strega is legal in both classes. The wing area increase basically was made to not allow my planes in 120 Warbird because they have been very dominant over the years( Except 2008 because I wasnt prepared ) and also attract the guys racing currently with 550 sq inches to use the .91 to 1.20 engines.

Rules are up I heard on www.t34racing.com

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Old 01-14-2009, 12:01 PM
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Default RE: Phoenix Strega motor for 120 class racing.

ORIGINAL: T34RACING
I think there is some "Lack of information" going on here.
Kevin's right, I did make an assumption that Jett would not be allowed. I based this on the 46 modified rules. The rules were only officially released yesterday. I have been talking to a couple people involved in the class and that it where I got most of my information.

I'm fine with what is in the rules. I was able to sell my Heli motor and I'm already looking for a replacement. I don't plan on running the full warbird series this year so my opinion is less relevant than the guys who have been flying in the series for years anyway.

I'll probably just look for a YS 110 as it will probably be a better "sport flier" than the 2 stoke with pipes. Not to mention, if Sumich is flying one it must be competitive.

Thanks,


Chris
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