Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

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Old 01-28-2009, 07:14 PM
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Default Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

Supposedly, by starting this thread I will be forcing myself to pay attention to this project and make attempts at progress. We'll see how that goes!

Now, all kidding aside, when I first bought this my intention was to convert it to pulsejet power.. something like pictured here, although I would fabricate proper mounts rather than propping it up on my wife's crystal. The engine is a Doylejet, a Dynajet sized SS pulsejet made in small numbers by Al Doyle in TX. The head is heavier than a Dynajet, but it sure is purty. Performance is the same.

With an 8-10 ounce bubblefree tank, this would actually be a relatively simple conversion!

But.. I think I will fit the .65, and make something more dedicated for the pulsejet. For giggles, I took a pic of my Maxjet too, it's an 18lb thrust unit destined for a 1.2-1.4m span flying wing thingy. After the Whiplash!

MJD

p.s. hey, whaddya know? A rare, genuine extreme speed thread! [X(]
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:26 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build/bash thread

Well that engine would look good worked into a ME 163....but I don't imagine they can be closed in. I also guess they need to be brought up to speed on a dolly to get leaned out enough to blast off? That's the way it looks in the control line circle, they burble to a certain speed then explode if everything is right. Last C/L regionals I attended, none of them were able to put in a qualifying run all weekend out of 2 or 3 entries. I think they soup up the stock engines, though....probably to the point of tricky fuel draw. I'll bet it helps to have experience with industrial burners to understand all the fine points.
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:26 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build/bash thread


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Well that engine would look good worked into a ME 163....but I don't imagine they can be closed in. I also guess they need to be brought up to speed on a dolly to get leaned out enough to blast off? That's the way it looks in the control line circle, they burble to a certain speed then explode if everything is right. Last C/L regionals I attended, none of them were able to put in a qualifying run all weekend out of 2 or 3 entries. I think they soup up the stock engines, though....probably to the point of tricky fuel draw. I'll bet it helps to have experience with industrial burners to understand all the fine points.
Google "pulsorohr" and you'll see a whack of pulsejet vids. There are quite a few on YouTube as well.

These things normally run just fine static and in the launch if your fuel system is sane and working alright. The speed fliers are always battling mixture and sometimes get flameouts - they run the largest intake possible that still gives fuel draw, and have to deal with the manners that result in the same way as IC engines do. I think some of them use enricheners, launch lean to keep it running then open up the fuel flow at speed - this would explain your observation. Jet speed jockeys, chime in?

These days I think the AMA jet fuel is 80% methanol / 20% MEK - the MEK is there I would guess because of it's wide combustion range, which should reduce flameout tendency. I imagine it was discovered by trial and error though.

The bigger jet uses a turbine fuel pump and ESC for fuel delivery, burns a mixture of gasoline and kerosene. Calibration consists of finding the setting that gives 340cc/minute fuel flow, then setting that as 100% throttle. AFAIK the designer has not tried the throttling in the air, but it works great in the static vid which I will try to find. With direct ram air I believe they like to flame out in flight, a deflector may be needed. At the very least you have a gradual cutoff.

I've been sketching a couple of ideas for it. The one I like best is based on the F27 Stryker lekkie, mebbe about 48" span. This is an 18 lb thrust engine, and in Europe this is a common size to see pushing deltas around at 200++. I hope the throttle works somewhat..

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Old 01-28-2009, 11:34 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build/bash thread


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Well that engine would look good worked into a ME 163....but I don't imagine they can be closed in.
Yeah they can, in a metal duct with sufficient cooling airflow. Jorg Vogelsang of Germany built a pair of 1/4 scale ME-163's with a hollow duct airframe like this, and two profile plates in cruciform arrangement at the nose which gave it a solid look but of course admitted air. These had electric fuel pumps and on board ignition, meaning he could stop/start in flight. I have VHS vid somewhere, this was at the '86 or '87 QSAA rally.

50 pound thrust pulsejets, I think the all up weight was 46 pounds dry IIRC. 3mm - pronounced "sree millimeter" - titanium wing spars, electric fuel pump, in flight restart capability.. and well over 200 mph. Launched from a dolly with the bungee from hell.

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Old 01-29-2009, 12:38 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build/bash thread

Ill bet the C/Lers are depending on centrifuge action somehow. That's what it looks like. I always thought they ran on straight gas...but there never is much smoke or odor to tell. One time one of those things didn't take off, it squirted out of the caged circle and plowed into an entire fleet of combat models a guy was keeping in a safe place under his car.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:02 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build/bash thread


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Ill bet the C/Lers are depending on centrifuge action somehow. That's what it looks like. I always thought they ran on straight gas...but there never is much smoke or odor to tell. One time one of those things didn't take off, it squirted out of the caged circle and plowed into an entire fleet of combat models a guy was keeping in a safe place under his car.
Maybe, the speed IC fliers use centrifugal gizmos for such things too.

Dynajets are set up to run on straight gas as they come, which is really just that the metering jet is sized to suit. Naptha works great and doesn't stink - Coleman has unsuspectingly powered more than a few pulsejet missions. You can run them on other fuels as long as you adjust the mixture. Same deal, except instead of seizing they burn up reed valves, but they love to keep running when lean to ensure the maximum self-destruction occurs, and conversely they tend to quit at the slightest bump or hiccup if over rich. Again, similar if not exact self-destructive tendencies. Fuels with narrow combustion ranges (fuel/air) are more tempermental than others with broader ranges.

In early speed days you would see the same horrifiying fuel blends as IC speed fliers and drag racers, with lovely things like nitrobenzene, tetranitromethane, duck gonad extract and whatever else. At least they don't fire supercharger fragments at the spectators. All they have to worry about is getting hit by the aircraft itself, or at the very least deafened and emotionally scarred by the spectacle.

I have yet to see any form of C/L speed flying live, but it is on my to-do list. Esp. D speed and jet. Oh, and 1/2A too.

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Old 01-29-2009, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

Well, I've had it with this f-ed up piece of crap, so much for whatever I spent. It's going to the back shed today.

I spent some time going over it, and have found the following:

- both wingtips have wash-in, the right side more pronounced and far more than I am willing to try to twist out and hope for the best. The two tips have about 2 degrees twist relative to each other, and I don't feel like trimming that out with the elevons on a speed ship.

- each wing surface has a distinct bow in the upper surface, I don't have an incidence meter so I haven't gone station to station to find out what the story is. All I know is I can see it and it stands out enough to bother me.

- the elevons are twisted beyond hope. They also have a lot less torsional stiffness than I would expect from a composite reinforced part.

- the fins are garbage but I already cut those off and tossed them. They were very strong though - if only that strength was trying to keep them flat.

This thing has all kinds of internal stress pulling it this way and that or so it seems. Either a rush job or a messed up cure schedule, or who knows and I don't really freaking care. I am not going to waste my time fitting equipment to it - especially a valuable OPS speed engine - and going through the hassle of setting everything up knowing it is a warped pile of junk that I will never be happy with. Maybe one day I'll bolt a sport .60 to it and see if it flies, but not very likely. Maybe things can be heated and twisted out, but then what? They are bound to head back that way again, entropy being what it is. I don't enjoy any model that needs constant attention to warps.

On to the sport speed design. And another 1/2A.

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Old 01-29-2009, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

MJD,
You need to build up one of these bad boys! I've been researching obscure German WWII aircraft lately


I can feel your frustrations, It is always better to spend the time building up an airframe "worthy" of the powerplant rather than use a lesser "arf". The pride of ownership and operation is so much greater.
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:46 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&


ORIGINAL: RocketRob

MJD,
You need to build up one of these bad boys! I've been researching obscure German WWII aircraft lately


I can feel your frustrations, It is always better to spend the time building up an airframe "worthy" of the powerplant rather than use a lesser "arf". The pride of ownership and operation is so much greater.
No way, get this: just before heading back to this forum right now, I was downloading line drawings of two aircraft: the ME-163 and the V-1.

Both have been on my "must do sometime" list for a long time.

There's a bit of info here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163.htm

LOL .

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Old 01-29-2009, 01:49 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

Looks like one of Hitler's High School metal shop projects.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:18 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Looks like one of Hitler's High School metal shop projects.
I know two German gentlemen in this area who, as part of Hitler's youth groups, made pulsejets and other engines and apparewntly sometimes flew them in FF models. One is a model aviation nut to this day and really knows his stuff (and sounds the part), the other had no interest in it afterwards but was a welder and metal worker all his life. Maybe his didn't fly?

I think for the V-1 to look scale, instead of a beautiful .50 cal projectile shaped fuselage like the X-1, you need to rivet together an assortment of steel buckets, then mount the flying surfaces from a 1970's Lanier ARF to that. For power I'd say a Bernzomatic torch and a whoopee cushion strapped to the top should do the trick.

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Old 01-29-2009, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

There used to be little ads in the back of magazines about do it yourself jet engine plans / kits that could be "made from everyday household items'.
I'm glad you're scrapping the Whip...your home made plane will make better use of your time and a better home for the OPS.
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:20 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&


ORIGINAL: RocketRob

MJD,
You need to build up one of these bad boys! I've been researching obscure German WWII aircraft lately
BTW Jorg Vogelsang brought an RC V-1 to Vegas in the mid 80's, and as I recall the caption mentioned it was clocked at 262 mph. That was with, IIRC, a 28 pound thrust pulsejet.

It's a very sensible aircraft to model, the moments and layout are all pretty boxy and standard. The need for about 3 pounds of equipment in the nose to ba;ance the engine is myonly concern, but one could skeak the engine ahead a bit to help compensate. So long as the tailpipe exits a good ways behind the tail surfaces, otherwise they get pounded to death by the turbulent mayhem back there.

The ME-163 with an open intake nose is also a darn attractive proposition. But for starters I'll likely stick with the flying wing design I've been scribbling.

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Old 01-29-2009, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

MJD,
The photo is a Feisler F1 103R

Not sure what size airframe you want the V1 in but K&A Models has a nice one I've seen fly EDF which may give you a head start - his glass work is very nice.

[link=http://www.kamodels.com/]K & A Models[/link]


Pig - Hitler Metal shop projects? I seem to recall a bat thing or two comming from House of Pig
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:45 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

RocketRob, are you comparing me to Hitler?
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:25 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

No comparison implied or intended - twas the aircraft comparision which was implied and intended[8D]
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:29 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

OK, just checking, because we are very different. I part my hair on the other side.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:37 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&


ORIGINAL: RocketRob

MJD,
The photo is a Feisler F1 103R
I knows what is is. A manned V-1 IOW. Quite a bumpy ride, even for a woman.
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

Yeah but perhaps better than the washing machine on spin cycle
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:03 PM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&

I hope they wore ear plugs!
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Old 02-12-2009, 05:00 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build/bash thread


CP:

Can speek with losts of experience on this one. In UC speed, our tanks were formed to take advantage of the centrifical force created, but the real salvation came from taping crankcase pressure and feeding it into the tank. You had to have a good ear and start a little rich, just a little. No tacks in those days worth poop. A bud and I took the Nats with our home brew system in 49, we showed it to the old guys (dumb) they beat us to death with our own system, improved, in 50. Lesson. Never be a nice guy in racing. If someone slow needs a plug, give it to him. Someone fast, give him a plug that needs a little work. Racing at a high level is a cat and dog fight, you need to be the winning dog. Unfortunately I never took my own advice. ENJOY
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Whiplash/OPS .65 build - SCRUBBED#$%^&


ORIGINAL: RocketRob

MJD,
The photo is a Feisler F1 103R

Not sure what size airframe you want the V1 in but K&A Models has a nice one I've seen fly EDF which may give you a head start - his glass work is very nice.

[link=http://www.kamodels.com/]K & A Models[/link]
I always liked the manned version. In fact, I am reading a book about Hanna Reich right now.. if I can find where I left it last time.

There are factors that dictate a minimum size and weight of sorts when planning to use this engine, and my list comes from a guy who is about to embark on this mission sometime soon, for the first time - meaning I have a few mistakes yet to to make:

- fuel requirements. Full bore is 340cc/minute. I'd like to carry 4-5 minutes of fuel (I have fuel control for when my brain turns to mush 43 seconds into the flight) so looking for 1.5-1.8l fuel at a specific gravity of about 0.78 -0.80 means 2l or so internal volume for a fuel load of 1.2-1.5kg = 2.6-3.3 pounds of fuel.

- no air in fuel permitted, bladders are pretty much mandatory. I don't know if those air eliminators are sufficient as I am not sure of the relative sensitivity of turbines to flame out in comparison to pulsejets. PJ's tend to shut off >now< with an air bubble.

- fuel cells must be rigidly enclosed, i.e. no IV bags in a wooden compartment. Now, an IV bag in a sealed fiberglass compartment is okay.

- the engine is very light for its size, at 850g or just under 2 pounds. But, even if I sneak it forward a bit within scale reason, there will still be ballast needed in the nose even with everything I can locate up there in place. So there is likely 4 pounds or so due to engine and engine mount weight, plus ballast to compensate. Deltas and flying wings can locate the engine CG closer to the aircraft's CG.

- In combination with the above, it is also important to ensure the tailpipe of the PJ exits well behind the tail surfaces, because it is a maelstrom near the exhaust exit with air and fire belching in and out like mad - it can beat up tail surfaces located too closely.

So I have been idly sketching Fi-103Rs, massaging the wing area up a bit, sliding the canopy/forward engine mount up a hair, slimjming the fuselage down just a few percent,that sort of thing. For their length, the wing area is not large in comparison, so a model sized for this engine will have a good sized fuselage. The plus side of all that, is the fuselage is pretty cavernous and there is a lot of internal volume - so this is an attractive project from that standpoint.

Air-breathing ME-163's are also a very attractive (and proven) idea for pulsejets.

Soon.. after the new .65 model.

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