Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

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Old 02-14-2009, 02:48 PM
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Default 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

Hello speed folks,

there hopefully will be the first North American F3S Speed-Cup this year!

A set of high speed cameras covering the 200 m long F3S speed trap will most probably be applied (that will be as precise as the actual German FAI optical timing device).


Please read this thread thoroughly:

Gathering of the gods - An Invitation to Speed
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=908211&page=9


The interesting part begins when Steve Neu of Neu-Motors gets involved [8D]



Also several F3S Speed Cup videos, many tips and FAI relevant info is posted in that thread.

The German speed freaks look forward to that first true US Speedcup following the FAI rules. We want to know how fast the US guys really are... [sm=tongue_smile.gif]





As for the heated-up discussion in this thread

are we interested in air speed or ground speed ? Does it matter
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_84..._1/key_/tm.htm

it is obvious that there sometimes seems to be a fundamental difference between most of the the North American speed freaks and those from Europe (especially Germany).

Over here in Germany for instance the speed freaks often are not really satisfied just being the fastest guy/gal at the local field.


They instead want to know the exact speed – But why?


Because they want to know how to make their often purpose designed and built speed planes faster - inducing a constant evolution from year to year...

It is not difficult to understand that the serious R/C speed freak can only rely on speed results that are based on a certain horizontal straight line distance (the longer the more objective).

To be able to know the exact and true speed capabilities of an R/C plane (or CL speed plane or CL speed car or CL speed boat) we should use the very sophisticated FAI rules that incorporate time versus distance measurement (please read the above mentioned "Gathering of the gods" thread).

These sophisticated FAI rules as a result of about 40 years of speed competition precisely determine the boundary conditions to be able to OBJECTIVELY compare even quite differently styled and sized speed planes.
At the same time these rules intelligently exclude certain extremes (we don't want to compete with military UAVs featuring monster wing loads and operating at different RE-numbers)! [sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

Sorry for all dynamic soaring pilots:
As long as no time versus distance measurement is applied these radar gun derived speeds cannot be taken seriously by the international FAI speed community!




So the FAI rules make it very easy for us F3S speed addicts to objectively get to know the true speed capabilities of our speed planes, supporting us to improve sustaining top speed over the 200 m horizontal straight line distance best possible.

Only a FAI compliant speed timing device enables us to detect the often quite small speed improvements (e.g. + 5 mph), especially for the nitro F3S classes. Plus 5 mph already is a big improvement BTW for the nitro powered speed planes when talking 235 mph +.

Especially improving the very important speed propeller design would not be possible without FAI based time-over-distance speed measurements.






So for future US/Canadian or other international speed events it would be a great improvement to use at least hand operated stop watches covering the 200 m speed trap distance.

Then you will know how fast your local club speed hero really is! [sm=thumbup.gif]

Be warned [sm=wink_smile.gif] , he will be (considerably) slower than he would expect from previous Stalker Pro radar gun or acoustic Doppler results...




BTW, the FAI F3S rules are no German rules. As the term FAI (Fédération Aéronautique Internationale) implies, these rules are international:
http://www.f3s-speedcup.de/reglement.php
http://www.f3s-speedcup.de/documents..._KZF36-585.pdf
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:58 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

Speed measuring by hand operated stop watches

(sadly no longer FAI compliant but enough accurate for the serious speed freak during training sessions or speed events):



For an objective and very cheap speed measuring we just need
[ul][*] 4 volunteers operating one stop watch + flag each[*] 2 people with laptop computers
[/ul]







The Euro-Speedcup usually is split into 2 rounds (scoring flights) in the morning and at least two more rounds at the afternoon (depending on sunlight and weather in general). So each pilot is able to perform at least 4 flights per day and plane. Since it is a two-day event the amount of flights can be doubled if the weather permits.

After each completed round (assuming about 20 pilots/flights per round) the speed results per participant and flight has to be averaged.

If the stop watch time of a certain flight pass does differ from the second watch ( = simultaneously recorded time) more than 0.05 seconds, this speed pass will be invalid.

Don't be afraid , mostly the two simultaneously performed stop watch time recordings per pass (to be averaged) are within these 0.05 seconds of deviation.

The two fastest valid passes (i.e. downwind and headwind) per flight again have to be averaged. Now the wind factor has been eliminated by 100%. This average is the official speed result per flight (see gray field).

The final list of speed results only shows the fastest speeds per participant/speed plane – derived from all rounds.



Just a simple Excel sheet is required that automatically calculates the speed from the recorded times and that automatically eliminates those times with too much deviation (>0.05 sec is non-usable).







So to conclude:
It is very inexpensive to realise a time measuring device that is almost as accurate as a full automated FAI compliant one (triggered by photo sensors or speed cameras). Applying the cheap stop watch approach will already show the true speed potential of our speed planes.

[ul][*] Radar guns,[*] Doppler acoustic shift,[*] on-board systems such like UniLog or GPS
[/ul]
won't be as objective...



P.S. Everybody has to wear the mandatory safety helmet during an official F3S speed event! Wearing safety goggles during engine starting and tuning is highly recommended for the nitro folks...
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Old 02-19-2009, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

I don't understand why you insist of busting on how the only event ever run over here was run. You already get a cool big trophy for your efforts, we don't say you are wrong, we don't dispute how you determine your speed, and we don't degrade your event in any way. In fact we recognize your event as the premier way of measuring speed. Yet every chance you get to put us down you pound it down our neck. Whatever bud.[:'(]

Keep pumping your ego by making others feel inferior to you in every way.
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:35 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: vicman

I don't understand why you insist of busting on how the only event ever run over here was run. You already get a cool big trophy for your efforts, we don't say you are wrong, we don't dispute how you determine your speed, and we don't degrade your event in any way. In fact we recognize your event as the premier way of measuring speed. Yet every chance you get to put us down you pound it down our neck. Whatever bud.[:'(]

Keep pumping your ego by making others feel inferior to you in every way.
I would say that sometimes folks from various countries in Europe write in a style of English that can come across as much more dictatorial or combative than the writer ever intended it to sound. I am holding to the opinion that this is true in the case of ILJ who, if any of what he said didn't make a whole pile of sense, would otherwise be interpreted as someone with way too much time on his hands. But there is solid foundation in what he says, IMHO, and evidently no small amount of relevant experience.

I think a lot of this has to do with the differing sentence syntax between languages, so I try to be positive and open-minded with my interpretation of his and some other posters. I think if nothing else ILJ is making a strong effort to create interest in the FAI version of the sport over here and therefore some standardized ground to speak upon, so we can all play "who went the fastest" and toss the trophy around, figuratively. The more interest, the more market support there is too in theory, although admittedly this is pretty fringe stuff.. ;-)

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Old 02-19-2009, 09:20 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

I don't buy it,
He pulls quotes of mine from other threads to make a mockery of me in this one and hijacks every thread I have ever posted in about what we have tried to do with his put downs and arrogance. It seems a little personal from this end.[:'(]
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: vicman

I don't buy it,
He pulls quotes of mine from other threads to make a mockery of me in this one and hijacks every thread I have ever posted in about what we have tried to do with his put downs and arrogance. It seems a little personal from this end.[:'(]
Ah well, may be so. I based my comments on language from experiences I've had in the past, not your unique history - I won't argue your point Vicman.
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

I've only "skim read" the last couple of posts. Please do not run ILJ out of here for any reason. Without him, we will for ever be stuck in 1980s speed mode. Every other German who has been nice enough to take the time here to educate us about how to go fast has been run out of here. Is this what everybody wants?
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

On another note - I wish I had noticed this was being organized sometime before today.. [&o]. Somehow I never noticed any word about it. Doh!

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Old 02-19-2009, 10:07 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

I've only "skim read" the last couple of posts. Please do not run ILJ out of here for any reason. Without him, we will for ever be stuck in 1980s speed mode. Every other German who has been nice enough to take the time here to educate us about how to go fast has been run out of here. Is this what everybody wants?
Not me, that's for sure. That's why I was trying to point out that communications are sometimes garbled.. all I know is - whatever this situation may be - I've had to run referee in business discussions where intentions, messages, etc. have been misinterpreted due to style differences. If I was wrong above, oh well, I was simply hoping to help.

ILJ better stick around after getting a bunch of us all excited about FAI speed flying.. .

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Old 02-19-2009, 11:05 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

MJD, if it comes down "to it", I will polish up my German and learn how to go fast in their speed forum. So far I know how to order a beer, a bratwurst and ask someone to sprechen ze langsam, bitte.
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:07 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

We need ILJ and other serious speed freaks posting in here. A ton of valuable information that you can take or leave. I never read any of his post as insulting to anyone. I stand with MJD and the pigg.
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

The only reason why we have no official category for RC Speed is because there has never been enough interest. At this stage of the game this end of the sport is all about having fun. Being "correct" in flight pattern or in the measurement of time is meaningless for the sake of building interest in this sport and just having fun.
I do not think that this really needs to be said amongst intelligent men.
Let's focus on the planes and how to go fast.
The guys who contribute to this forum have made it what it is, a great place to learn.
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Old 02-20-2009, 07:45 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

I have received nothing but good sound advice from ILJ.

He has expended great efforts with his "open code" information and frankly I am humbled. If we let our egos and attitudes get in the way we are certainly the lesser.

Now lets not act like the spoiled americans the rest of the world has had to tollerate for way to long!
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:34 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

If I'm reading him wrong then let him say so.
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Old 02-20-2009, 01:06 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: vicman

If I'm reading him wrong then let him say so.
I don't disagree with your thinking there. Just for the record Vicman - we having never met - I don't suggest for a minute that you don't have some kind of tangible issue with him, and I sure ain't tanglin' with you and got no reason to. My efforts were an attempt at dousing unnecessary flames - these things easily end up in people walking away, and both of you are card-carrying gearhead speed freak members here. I guess what I am trying to say is please don't let this go any further, perhaps could you just write each other and sort it out amicably instead of on this forum? That's just a personal plea, but so far this is all up on the wall so I'm asking up on the wall too. Fer real like.

Let's all just build fast airplanes to whatever our personal standard of "fast" may be, and be happy with the diversity in approaches. AND, let's try to get bona fide F3S flying happening big time in North America and be freakin' happy it's here! I'll come play as much as I can afford to, in all honest 100% seriousness for real here, I have been looking for an event that turns my crank. An old flying buddy, now gone, told me to compete in something, and I have not forgotten his advice. This is one horny-ass event! Balls to the wall top speed is awesome! Dive away - if your eyes are so good that you can climb 5000' and dive, then heck man do it! The tech channels would have a hey day with this stuff idea too - after all, no matter what the motor event, the guys who try to do the "mostest" stuff, like jumps or top speed, are the good film. No diff for RC or any form of model aviation stuff. It's a good story! Just thinking ahead a bit..

Yeah Revver Brethren, hear me!! The sermon is over, I will henceforth shut the duck up and proceed posthaste to make a ham sandwich and a tall glass of Hershey's chocolate milk (1%, but hey, it's okay..[&o]). Then it's time to fire up the wood stove and PS3 in that order while the kids are at school for another three hours, cause folks, I just swept the floor and put away the dishes and I am a free man this afternoon! Mind you, if I had work today/this afternoon that would be even better... . Ah well, we're not out of cat food, KD, or peanut butter yet, and I'm not hardly spending any money on model sh.. I mean, stuff, that my wife knows about.

It's a frigging beautiful Feb afternoon up here - we had a sudden mild spell for a couple of weeks, and all the nice pretty deep snow (18-20" or so) melted away (wah wah). Last couple of days we've had a storm butter us up again with a few inches and it looks like winter again, which in Jan-Feb is pretty hard to hide up here even at our modest latitude, as everything is dead instead of half of it at the moment. So now we all crawl back into our basements and play with toys for another two months until the snow has gone. Speaking of which, I have a 12" long airplane to finish that really should only take three hours to frame up. Lazy sod I am, always looking for distractions. Like RCU for example.. hmm..yeahh, definitely, it's RCU's fault.

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Old 02-20-2009, 04:38 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: RocketRob

I have received nothing but good sound advice from ILJ.

He has expended great efforts with his "open code" information and frankly I am humbled. If we let our egos and attitudes get in the way we are certainly the lesser.

Now lets not act like the spoiled americans the rest of the world has had to tollerate for way to long!

i too have been appreciative at all of the time that ILJ has spent on educating us over here in the area of speed. even if he comes on as being pretentious so what. i've never noticed. in fact he has been flamed here before for little or no reason and he still comes back. don't the germans have a lock on the top speeds recorded anyway? in addition to us being limited as to our top end by AMA? it would stand to reason that anyone with fewer restrictions on top speed would know more anyway. you could instead remind him that we make a darn good bomber or fighter plane if you need to feel superior.[X(]

keep it coming ILJ, thanks.
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Old 02-20-2009, 07:03 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

There is no speed limit for propeller driven model aircraft in the USA.

As far as the German Speed Cup, it should be renamed the Gravity Games, since the top 20% of their speed comes from diving downhill.
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Old 02-20-2009, 08:05 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: HighPlains

There is no speed limit for propeller driven model aircraft in the USA.

As far as the German Speed Cup, it should be renamed the Gravity Games, since the top 20% of their speed comes from diving downhill.
What's the alternative, a pylon type course with an altitude limit? I guess that would do the trick.

Say what - at this inaugural NA Speedcup, why don't the folks that are able to attend do a bunch of flying both ways - high climb and dive versus racetrack style flying - and get some first hand experience with the pros and cons..? Seems like a great opportunity to do so.. doesn't it? Talk about a right there and now way to settle a few discussions about the merits of each.

Just an idea????

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Old 02-20-2009, 09:34 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

Whether you like it or not, the challenge is there, right in front of you and the rules are simple enough.
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:21 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

While not FAI rules mine is the first US event I'm aware of. If you want to do it again we will be on the mountain top on June 27[8D]
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: vicman

While not FAI rules mine is the first US event I'm aware of. If you want to do it again we will be on the mountain top on June 27[8D]
I'e lost track - which event is this? Where?

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Old 02-21-2009, 07:12 AM
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ORIGINAL: HighPlains

There is no speed limit for propeller driven model aircraft in the USA.

As far as the German Speed Cup, it should be renamed the Gravity Games, since the top 20% of their speed comes from diving downhill.

i thought i might have that wrong, i don't know why i did though. thanks high plains, i always respect your opinions.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:07 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

MJD,
The Carolina Speed Rally is the event we held last year and will be doing again on June 27. We all had a great time, for more info you can go to http://www.caldwellaeromodelers.com/default.asp It looks likey they only have the tally sheet on the site at the moment but I've asked them to put the "Things to Know" sheet back in there as well.

If any have read the full thread on RCG listed at the top of this thread you will notice the left coast guys are having the same problem most of us would with meeting the FAI measurment method and after 7 months still haven't gotten a firm set-up or plan for what they are going to do.

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Old 02-21-2009, 10:28 AM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup


ORIGINAL: vicman

MJD,
The Carolina Speed Rally is the event we held last year and will be doing again on June 27. We all had a great time, for more info you can go to http://www.caldwellaeromodelers.com/default.asp It looks likey they only have the tally sheet on the site at the moment but I've asked them to put the "Things to Know" sheet back in there as well.

If any have read the full thread on RCG listed at the top of this thread you will notice the left coast guys are having the same problem most of us would with meeting the FAI measurment method and after 7 months still haven't gotten a firm set-up or plan for what they are going to do.

Cool... NC is about 12 hours away, versus SoCal at 45 or so. More realistic for this year.

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Old 02-21-2009, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: 2009 North American F3S Speed-Cup

Open invitation but you would need an AMA card to participate. I'm not sure how that works with MAAC, I will check into if it you are thinking about coming down.
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