Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Picco 45 DF

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Old 05-26-2009, 07:17 PM
  #1  
RVman
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Default Picco 45 DF

I recently got a picco 45RIRE that had been sitting for awhile,took it apart and cleaned it up. It really didn't look all that used but the carb was stuckandthebearings felt a little rough at first. I could use some information on this engine. What prop(s) to use, what rpm range to look for and pipe options? The prop that came with the engineis a 9-4MAS.

I ran it today witha homemade moussecanpipe I had lying around. It turned 20,500 on that propeller, idled around 8000. It ran very well and also very loud, sounded like a sport engine with the big ear muffs on.

The only airplane I have that I can install it in is a 51" WSME109, I know its not a speed plane by any means, but it should still be plenty fast. I'll try to clean up the airframe, remove the LG and add fillets, full cowletc. Ishould be able tokeep the pipe inside the fuselage.
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Old 05-26-2009, 08:20 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

You must have a death wish running a MAS prop that speed.
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Well, recommend a good prop then. 
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:18 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

anything over 19,000 should be a carbon fiber prop shouldn't it? 
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:48 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF



Wood (maple), carbon or APC pylon racing props.  If above 22K then wood or carbon only.



A buddy of mine blew up a cut down MAS on a racing engine and nearly lost an eye.  He had on eye protection at the time.  Without it, he would be dead.  His vision was permently damaged in that eye.

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Old 05-27-2009, 09:45 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF


ORIGINAL: RVman

I recently got a picco 45 RIRE that had been sitting for awhile, took it apart and cleaned it up. It really didn't look all that used but the carb was stuck and the bearings felt a little rough at first. I could use some information on this engine. What prop(s) to use, what rpm range to look for and pipe options? The prop that came with the engine is a 9-4 MAS.

I ran it today with a homemade moussecan pipe I had lying around. It turned 20,500 on that propeller, idled around 8000. It ran very well and also very loud, sounded like a sport engine with the big ear muffs on.

The only airplane I have that I can install it in is a 51
Considering it "only" turns a 9-4 at 20.5k, I'd expect it to run in the what, ?18 - 18.5k? region on a 9-6 APC, which is getting towards the upper limit but within the 190,000/diameter formula. Such a prop would pull the ME 109 with tons of static thrust and a top end over 100, probably a good place to start. It's a common first flight prop for Magnums for example. I am not sure the engine would appreciate any more load than that, being essentially a DF engine, although if it is not protesting by overheating and running like crap a 9-7 might work esp. with a can instead of a pipe. Beyond that you might look at the pylon props, mebbe 8.8x8.0 - 8.25, but the question is whether the disc area is too small for the aircraft - you'll soon know, just don't go too high on the pitch off the bat. Sounds to me like the mousse can isn't doing for you what a full pipe would (of course not), but it is still turning up decently.

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Old 05-27-2009, 09:46 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF



Thanks, I ordered a few pylon props for it. 



What kind of pipe should I be looking for?  I can make another 1/4 wave pipe similar to the one in the first post, which I use on 50 size sport engine, or would the engine really benefit from a full length pipe?   I have nothing to aim for so I don't know if the performance I am getting is good, bad, average.  What kind of rpm should I be able to get from an 8.75 X 7 pylon prop?



Does anyone have (any) information on this engine, I cannot find much searching online.  

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Old 05-27-2009, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF



You might try posting in the jet/ducted fan threads to see if anyone has first hand info on that engine.  I would expect it to run best around 22-24K.  That engine would work really well with an old Formula One airplane (which are hard to find) or a Q40 airframe.  As MJD is saying, the prop diameter it will turn (due to it's timing) is pretty small, which means the airframe has to be very low drag.





Ducted fans kind of died a few years back, with the advent of turbine power.  But now seem to be coming back as electric powered models.  (perish the thought)!

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Old 05-27-2009, 12:30 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Thanks guys for the info, helps a lot. 
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:15 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF


ORIGINAL: HighPlains



You might try posting in the jet/ducted fan threads to see if anyone has first hand info on that engine. I would expect it to run best around 22-24K. That engine would work really well with an old Formula One airplane (which are hard to find) or a Q40 airframe. As MJD is saying, the prop diameter it will turn (due to it's timing) is pretty small, which means the airframe has to be very low drag.





Ducted fans kind of died a few years back, with the advent of turbine power. But now seem to be coming back as electric powered models. (perish the thought)!
one benefit of df dying out and turbines taking over iswe now have more df engines to put props on.

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Old 05-27-2009, 10:28 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF


[quote]ORIGINAL: dhal22


ORIGINAL: HighPlains



You might try posting in the jet/ducted fan threads to see if anyone has first hand info on that engine. I would expect it to run best around 22-24K. That engine would work really well with an old Formula One airplane (which are hard to find) or a Q40 airframe. As MJD is saying, the prop diameter it will turn (due to it's timing) is pretty small, which means the airframe has to be very low drag.





Ducted fans kind of died a few years back, with the advent of turbine power. But now seem to be coming back as electric powered models. (perish the thought)!
one benefit of df dying out and turbines taking over is we know have more df engines to put props on.<br
Oh boy my entire post just vanished with one slip of my hand.. doh!

The front of a speed plane is a far more noble use for these fine engines, than to be banished unseen to the bowels of some jet jockey's ride. We should take pride in our appointed task of setting these thoroughbreds free. Nobody wants to look at an electric motor anyway, what better use for it?



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Old 05-31-2009, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

RVman:

Hay, High Planes is trying to save your tail and has a very valid commenthere. Sorry, started this post with a picture of 1/2 a apc prop driven through a 1-1/2" piece of 2 X 6 when a blade broke off at 18 to 22,000. Lost picture somehow.Think most all of us older guys have seen some strange things through the years that should be passed on for safety reasons. Once saw a "Hell razor" U control break the lines and go throughtwo chain link fences andstill skipaway like a bullet.Was this guys second run, first run was in the 130 mph range, not really that fast, but if it hit you?????Practice good savety habits with this stuff so you will be around for a good long time. Do not stand in front or side of those engines when tunning. ENJOY
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:47 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF


ORIGINAL: MJD

Considering it "only" turns a 9-4 at 20.5k, I'd expect it to run in the what, ?18 - 18.5k? region on a 9-6 APC, which is getting towards the upper limit but within the 190,000/diameter formula. Such a prop would pull the ME 109 with tons of static thrust and a top end over 100, probably a good place to start. It's a common first flight prop for Magnums for example. I am not sure the engine would appreciate any more load than that, being essentially a DF engine, although if it is not protesting by overheating and running like crap a 9-7 might work esp. with a can instead of a pipe. Beyond that you might look at the pylon props, mebbe 8.8x8.0 - 8.25, but the question is whether the disc area is too small for the aircraft - you'll soon know, just don't go too high on the pitch off the bat. Sounds to me like the mousse can isn't doing for you what a full pipe would (of course not), but it is still turning up decently.

MJD
Ifound a macs unmuffled 1140 pipe andthe 9-6 won't work. It turned upto 20K rpm just after the pipe boost.Thats all I did since I didn't want to exceed the prop limits. I'll try a9-7 or those pylon props next. The can must have really restricted it to make that much difference.

And man is it LOUD! I need to make an after muffler or something to quite it down.

I may look for a more suitable plane too, I'm doubting the strength of the tail for that much power.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:59 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Try an APC carbon prop # LP 74825C 7.4X8.25.

You don't need to worry about the prop going away and you'll get the engine into it's designed operating range.

Re-tune the pipe hopefully in the 24,000 to 25,000 range on the ground. A #1150 pipe, #1250 Muffled or the #1050 Quiet pipe may work better on a DF engine (one size larger than a sport engine would use).

Even the 8.8X9.75 pylon prop can let-go when a strong 45-46 DF engine unloads as seen in the pictures.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Cool, you've got some power to play with there. A West .50v1 typically cranks a 9-6 20-21k on the ground for reference. And you're still not all the way into the powerband of that engine. You need CF!

Those deltas you see kicking around can handle it. So can an F3D airframe of course, just add money.

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Old 06-16-2009, 11:54 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

MJD, I may be able to get a 40 size Shrike (There is one on RCC).

FF, I'm not sure how I will tune the pipe yet, all the stuff is used so the header is waycut down (its only 1.5" long) butthe pipe is stock (12 1/4" total). I could find another 5/8 tube and use two couplers to lengthen the system for tuning.

I think the bearings are doneso I'm going to replace before something bad happens to the engine.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:49 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

The Shrike may not be the right platform for that prop-engine combo, I'd go with something with less frontal area. A Demon, Diamond Dust, Matney Models Zoomer or some type of F3D planes. I think you may need a new header(or use spacers[:'(] )and pipe but try what you have. A pipe that's sized too small will be hard to tune and blow plugs you may need to get a bigger one. My tuned length is 9 1/2' from the center of piston to the large diameter on the pipe (apex).
You should use the pressure tap that I see on your pipe, check that its open and the header and pipe should be almost touching or the coupling will blow out in short order.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:36 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF



Mine is 9 3/4" from the centre of piston to apex. 

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Old 06-17-2009, 11:17 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Hey FF, is the 9.5 down from the 10.5 I recall? If so what rpm increase did it yield?
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:49 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Nope, thats been the number for that engine in all my notes. Hows your plane doing Rob?
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Old 06-18-2009, 11:35 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF



Thanks FF,
I must have been confused.......
I remeasured mine and I am at 9 1/4-3/8 after following your lead - but mine has the offset header to clear the fuse.
The Miss Ashley is doing well getting a bit of hangar rash, and is on the charger as I type!

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Old 06-18-2009, 05:58 PM
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ORIGINAL: RocketRob

The Miss Ashley is doing well getting a bit of hangar rash, and is on the charger as I type
Better hanger rash than hanger queen.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:33 PM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Removed the bearings today and they are definitely in need of replacement.  Won't be able to run it for a little while until I get the new ones.  I plan to get one of Mike's Screamin demon delta's for this engine, that should be more than suitable
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: Picco 45 DF

Hi!
It's very important that you use good bearings.
In pylon racing we use C4 bearings (bearings with more play = less friction) and the ones used are made by WIB (Swiss made).
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