Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

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Old 06-30-2009, 08:33 AM
  #1  
iflyg450
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Default PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

This past weekend I attended a local clubs fly-in (HAD A BLAST!) While their I saw what could of been a horrible accident that would have caused loss of life. We were going to do some informal pylon racing, the guy from their club had a what looked like a Viper 500 and a Jett 40 he was turning some practice laps and my god he was all over the place over pits ect... After a few min of flying the engine came lose from the plane and rocketed into a tent full of people hitting a heli and punching a hole into a gray plastic folding table. IT MISSED A 12 YEAR OLD KID"S HEAD BY LESS THAN A FOOT!!!!!! I talked with the guy who was piloting a plane, as our clubs safety officer I had some questions. This was his first go fast type plane, it was the maiden flight, the prop was never balanced, all the hardware was that cheap junk, and he knew nothing about the plane. Which made me think of how many time I see this post "LOOKING FIRST GO FAST PLANE." Which is great, nothing wrong with going fast. But all too often folks tell these people which are good airframes and good engine which is very helpful but their are a few things that are getting left out.

1) Choose the right airframe/engine combo: That nitromodel's (or other low cost ARF) plane won't last long with a screaming engine. Even a well built ARF needs to be checked over.

2) Ditch the cheap horns and clevis

3) BALANCE THE PROP!!! Even APC should be balanced and inspected after a flight.

4) If it has a throttle USE it. The pilot in question not once did he throttle down when it was all over the place.

5) NEVER DO A MAIDEN FLIGHT AT A FLYIN OR WHEN A LARGE GROUP IS AT THE FIELD!!!! If that was a regular Sunday the engine would have just crashed into a open field.

I have noticed over that past couple of years planes are getting bigger and faster and cheaper!!! I have seen the 3d planes Hover over the runway get the plane into trouble pull out now the plane is heading towards a crowd. I couldn't even begin to grasp the guilt I would feel know that my model airplane hobby killed someone. Respect your plane and heli its fun but all can take someone’s life. Stay with in your comfort zone and don't be in such a rush to fly a BIG or FAST airplane. Accidents’ like that make the news and cause bad press for our hobby it makes towns close fields. We all need to do our part to keep it safe. If you have any tip please add them!!
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Excellent post! I agree wholeheartedly, I have witnessed a few close calls before too, and they were also a result of people flying aircraft they shouldn't be flying quite yet, work your way up to these fast planes and big planes slowly and you will be richly rewarded with many a fun safe flights. Also checking over the aircraft after each flight has saved me many probable mishaps, every time I find something wrong or out of place, it re-assures me that checking is a great idea.
Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:09 AM
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iflyg450
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Yes Sir you are right as a private pilot I am a HUGE FAN OF PRE-FLIGHT. I feel you should do a inside in out pre flight before the first flight of the day. After that pre flight before every flight checking the controls and prop ect.. My pre flights have saved many planes
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:14 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Firt I can not tell if you were the safety officer for the hosting club but if you are, you let him maiden a new plane at a fly-in? Against the AMA safety code. You let him continue to fly even though he was flying in a very obvious unsafe manner? On top of that I assume no one in the club talked to this pilot before hand or inspected his new plane... Was this a speed meet where it was expected that someone would fly a fast plane? Was he a club member or guest? Did anyon, anyone at all talk to him or look over his plane at all to find out if he was capable of flying this plane. A few easy questions can usually tell the pilots ability. And while standing asking these few questions looking at the plane can usually tell if it'll fly.

I hate to say it but every club member at your event was at fault with the safety officer even more at fault. Get your act together the life you save may be your own.

I didn't really mean for this to be a rant, sorry but as I typed I got a bit pissed....
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:50 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

THIS WAS NOT MY CLUB!!! I THINK HE was a club member I had never met the guy or have flown at this club. I do know that I will never go back. Between that the 40% yak hovering over the runway, planes flying over the pit. This was not a speed meet. The time the plane was in the air to the time the engine came off was less than 1 min. Yes I agree someone should have told him to slow it down and get controll NOW! Whats done is done, My main focus is to get folks aware of the dangers and what we can do to keep it safe. IF you see a new pilot with a new plane make sure it gets inpected and don't let somone fly a go fast or a big plane if you know their last plane a PT-40 or a Nexstar. I know folks who fly the fast ones loves to say "It's pretty easy to fly" Check your ego at the door. Yes I do fly alot of fast ones I am enjoying while I am young and can see
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:10 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Have you had a chance to talk to the clubs safety officer? In fact if you are close it may be a good thing to go to their next meeting and say something.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:16 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Don't apologize Evan. You are absolutly right.

Test flights should not be accomplished at an event or in front of a large gathering of people.
Unfortunately many people think that the "Maiden Flight" is the only dangerous or critical flight. They get that first flight out of the way and come to an event ready to "compete"!
Truth is, the first 3 to 5 flights on any airplane are critical just because they are new. Bolts come loose and cracks develop. Competitions such as races are not the place to continue your test flight program. You should come well TESTED and PRACTICED. You should know your plane and know that it is well proven and will withstand the riggors of whatever competition you are doing.
Shame on you that accept the Chinese technology and risk our lives without going through the airframe and taking the responsibility for the strength and design.
There was a day when we never mounted an engine to a firewall that wasn't wrapped in fiberglass. Now-a-days, many firewalls don't even show any trace of glue - just an interlocking wooden tab.

Don't assume that, when the blood starts flying, you will be able to say "I didn't build the airplane - It's not my fault".

Sorry for the rant too. But this steams me. Our "Tech Inspector" crashed two "racers" on the same day that went out of control over the pits because the planes had less than 5 flights on them and he didn't know what they would do, couldn't handle them and he was the tech inspector for his own airplanes.

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Old 06-30-2009, 10:28 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Their club is a out of the way for me to attend a meeting It was over a hour drive. I did send a email to their club president. After the engine icedent, when the 3D guys were hovering over the runway I did ask them to far side of the runway. Let me say this one MORE TIME I WAS UNAWARE OF WHO THIS PILOT WAS OR TO HIS SKILLS THIS WAS NOT MY CLUB. I POSTED THIS SO FOLKS CAN GAIN AWARNESS. I DID NOT INTEND THIS TO BE FINGER POINTING POST!
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Unfortunately what most of us consider common sense, is not common.
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:21 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

I see so much of this that I resigned as our club safety officer. I feel guilty about this but we have folks that every weekend when they fire up, everyone goes and stands by a car. I quit.

I've been modeling for a little over 4 decades and I've been involved enough with safety over the years to study this rash of unsafe behavior. My observation is that we now live in an ARF world. Like it or not, most people at the field have NEVER built a plane. Today's "typical" new modeler buys an ARF trainer and after demonstrating an inability to fly it (i.e. crashes it), decides to pull out the gear and put it in a P-51/Twist/Viper or something more exciting than the trainer they just proved they can't fly.

In this pre-built world I see folks crashing 5 to 10 planes a year. I see folks ball-up an LT-40 or Alpha trainer and then look at the hobby shop walls for the "next plane". They usually/often decide they've already had a trainer and would like to try something else. I'm not blind to appeal of buying something different but there was a time when a trainer took 3 months to build and a modeler's enthusiasm for building a new Spitfire (with retract) was tempered by the time it took to build it. Not so in the world as it exist today. $130.00 later and a good nights work and they ask me to test fly their new P-40 Warhawk. Sometimes I fly it for them and suggest, as politely as I know how, they may not be ready for this plane. How do I tell someone that your landings are unsafe and 1/2 the time in the weeds on the far side of the runway? How exactly do you tell/ask someone "you haven't mastered a trainner... Why would you think you're ready for a Viper"?

In an ARF world, if all you have invested in it is $120.00 and a nights work, why would you care if you splatter 8 planes a year over the field? Never mind those planes are randomly hitting something! This is a glorious hobby that, with the advent of pre-built airplanes, has fewer barriers to entry than ever before. That has allowed modelers that don't have time or space to build, to come fly with us.... but, without barriers to entry, it has brought modelers and a mindset into the hobby that don't work as hard to "not crash".

Please notice I'm not suggesting that folks that go through many planes a years don't care about the health of their fellow modelers. It's just they often don't have the experience to consider the consequences of crashing. In the example given in the first post of this thread, had this not nearly killed someone (i.e. crashed out in the field) there is every possibility the modeler involved would simply buy another plane... likely having learned very little. Years ago he/she would have at least had the month it took to build a new plane to think about it. In today's world and Monday morning... it's a trip to the hobby shop for a new plane and a new home for the recently liberated engine and radio gear. Only 5 days 'till Sunday!

Rant over!

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Old 06-30-2009, 12:41 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips


ORIGINAL: iflyg450

Their club is a out of the way for me to attend a meeting It was over a hour drive. I did send a email to their club president. After the engine icedent, when the 3D guys were hovering over the runway I did ask them to far side of the runway. Let me say this one MORE TIME I WAS UNAWARE OF WHO THIS PILOT WAS OR TO HIS SKILLS THIS WAS NOT MY CLUB. I POSTED THIS SO FOLKS CAN GAIN AWARNESS. I DID NOT INTEND THIS TO BE FINGER POINTING POST!
It's all good - when you said safety officer the first thing that pops into people's heads is that you screened the airplane, although it is there in writing that you were attending another club's event and were not the safety officer there. Everyone lay off ifly and just read the point!

IMHO there is far too much "yeah, that's okay, let er go, or "sure, why not" or "that's so-and-so's, he's alright" that goes on because of familarity or apathy. And far too many people get all pissy when you question simple things - I say if you can't take it, find another sport. I've seen near misses that any jackass should have seen coming. Your post is well meant and right to the point!

MJD

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Old 06-30-2009, 12:42 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

I agree wjvail:

We live in a "want it now" society for the most part, not as many people are building a model from plans or a kit , anymore, part of the passion I think is devloped while building, and then the climax, actually flying it, building the model I think has a certain gratification to it.
But not everybody has the aplitude or mechanical mind set or the patience to do it either, so I guess arfs have allowed people to fly that otherwise probably wouldn't have if they had to build it, and also alot of people don't even realize the dangers either, like the fellas I work with, they see these things as toys and not as potental weapons if used in the wrong manner.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:29 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Wjvail, good post.

Yes a world with P-51 trainers and people that can't think 2 minutes ahead.

This weekend I had a friend that has been trying to put together a helo for his son, he flew them many years ago but really does not know how to assemble or fly one as far as I can tell. Anyway he calls me many times a day to ask questions, starting out with what should I buy, what servos, motor, etc... I have had to hold his hand every step, he refuses to read manuals, instruction books, or use the web. Every step is a phone call. Anyway I had not heard from him in a day or two so I called and he and his son were on their way to the field to get me to help in person. Funny thing is I was not at the field or planning on going there and I wondeer how many time he had gone out hoping I would be there. Anyway I told him I'd meet him there. There were many issues but the main thing he wanted to get done was program the radio, a Spektrum 6ie?? for the gyro. He had not read the manuals for either and could not figure it out. He brought the Spektrum manual and honestly it did not have much for programing the gyro. He did not bring the manual for the gyro. After an hour of back and forth I could not get the programing done and gave up. I had HH set up but could not get the normal mode to work.
During this I noticed the antenna was broken off the transmitter and said he needed to fix it to which he replied that the broken off part was hollow and did not appear to do anything. I said it needed to be fixed anyway.

So while doing this a guy with said P-51 trainer takes off and flies. I had set it up for him a few weeks earlier and he sounded like he was doing good but I was focused on the helo. There was one other pilot there that while not a beginer was not very accomplished. Anyway halfway through the flight I hear the P-51 pilot talking to his buddy that he can't land the plane, never had, and way scared he'd crash it. Hearing this I went out and landed it for him. What would he have done if I was not there? I talked him through landings explaining approaches and all for a couple flights before he left but he never made a landing on his own, will he take off again with no one there to help him?

Anyway after he left another person shows up. Fairly good pilot with electric but had bought a new gasoline plane. Two weeks earlier we fiddled with it for hours to find out other than a dead battery for the ignition there were other things. I asked repeatedly if the batteries were charged... What if it was the flight battery that was low and not the ignition? Anyway we got the motor working and linkages adjusted and radio programed to the point the ups were the same and everything went the right way and he got a test flight in. The thing flew horribly nose heavy though he said a few times that it was balanced per instructions. I don't think so... but...

Anyway, long post but the bottom line is there are people that can get thing too easily and get over their head. It is real frustrating to me. seems like I am fixing other peoples problems more than I get to fly nowadays, in fact this week end I got to fly alot and didn't even take out a plane.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Agree with all thats been said. The ARF's have created a mind set with new fliers and the fact that they have been the norm for so long most club officals do see any problem with it. I am not a old timer only 31, I am not ARF flier nor do I think Iam better than thoes who do. Without arfs our hobby would be VERY SMALL. Gone are the days when your in somebodys workshop and you see a beautifull plane hanging from the celling and you ask him "how does it fly?" and he replies "Don't know it took so long to build I am afride to fly it." But I want to keep this post on what we can do to keep people safe! Tips about props and the use of correct harware ect... Most of you are right if that Viper was in a kit only form that guy most likely would not have been flying it. After that event happened I felt just sick, thinking about what could have happened and how a adult can be so D^## careless. Even the 3D flier just didn't seam to care about anyone else.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

When you stop to think about it, it is a miracle that our safety record is as good as it is. No amount of preparation will prepare you for the worst if you ever get lulled into thinking that you are safe.
Actually, thinking that you are safe is the first step towards getting killed.

There are not very many safety officers I know who can predict when a switch will fail or when a wing will fold. Too much is expected of the SO if you think it his job to do a complete tear down and T.I. of every plane that shows up. Never forget that when you are out there at the field, you are in a hot area and need to keep your wits about you.
You pays your nickle and you takes your chances.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:28 PM
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ORIGINAL: combatpigg

When you stop to think about it, it is a miracle that our safety record is as good as it is. No amount of preparation will prepare you for the worst if you ever get lulled into thinking that you are safe.
Actually, thinking that you are safe is the first step towards getting killed.

There are not very many safety officers I know who can predict when a switch will fail or when a wing will fold. Too much is expected of the SO if you think it his job to do a complete tear down and T.I. of every plane that shows up. Never forget that when you are out there at the field, you are in a hot area and need to keep your wits about you.
You pays your nickle and you takes your chances.
I saw many near misses in over 20 years involved in sport rocketry as a manufacturer and participant. I would guess 75% could have been avoided by competent, or any, tech inspection and strict adherence to safety codes - ixnay on the good ol' boys club IOW. Far too much "it'll be fine", just as with model av. The rest by owner skill and attitude issues, some by product defects.

My comments don't have anything to do with the ARF issue, although there may be a link there. I totally agree with the condition the ARF has brought upon us - modelers totally lacking fundamental skills and understanding showing up at the field with a car load of toys and an attitude in direct proportion to the girth of their wallet.

And there is the crux of the problem - you can have anything you want, just add money and voila! Instant gratification. These are certainly wonderful times for so many of us with the technologies available over the counter, but there are certain caveats - like perhaps the general progressive dumbing down of the model aviation community?

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Old 06-30-2009, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

mike, will your screemin deamons say on box "not for novices, "?

People allways want run before they can walk or fly faster than they can talk and most want to graduate from novice as soon as possible.

A rookie speed freak won't last long. Gravity will make sure of that. Its just in the process everyone has to take cover which creates anxiety and its that which makes us edgy especially if you don't have an eye on the model when working on your own model in the pits.



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Old 06-30-2009, 09:44 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Man am I glad Evan didn't talk about the guy who folded the wing on his Predator this weekend.[sm=stupid.gif]
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Find that motor yet Vic?

Hope it ran ok for you. It was obviously too much engine for that predator

D
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:06 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Ifly ... what comes to mind is why was was he allowed to fly a plane which you believe to be questionable (lousy hardware etc)? I mean was it not checked by the club safety officer etc? Also, how come a newbie to fast planes wanna go with a hot motor? I think his friends should have had the guts to let him know its a whole new world with such fast planes. Guess, we all should look out more for one another ...
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:08 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips


ORIGINAL: mk1spitfire
mike, will your screemin deamons say on box ''not for novices, ''?
I followed South Park's lead and put "not for use by anyone" on the front.

Actually, the box is plain brown, could be a Rubber Rita for all anyone knows (oh I see, she's called "Screamin Demon" is she??[sm=kiss.gif] Mi-chaaaaaael!!!! [sm=punching.gif])

The novice warning is clearly in the first paragraph of the instructions.

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Old 07-01-2009, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Cool mike.

I Like that engine cowl your rustling up on Deamon, like speedys, ANTI drag, We hate drag
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Well just like what has been said the folks who fly ARF's are for the most part just not aware of things like harware. And most folks at clubs these days are ARF pilots. Folks if you buy an ARF don't care who makes it Look at the hardware look at the glue joints if it looks cheap GUESS WHAT IT IS. Granted if you put a standard sport 40 on a 40 size plane you'll probably safe. One you use a engine like a Rossi, Jett, Nelson, Webra, YS, or any engine made for pylon or pattern flying. You better add some more glue and ditch the nylon hardware, easy links, and thoes fittings that you slide the pushrod through and tighten the a set screw. These planes can pull some Gs
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

I agree, same for me when I put a Saito .91 on my .40 size 3D plane. I fiberglassed the firewall, gear blocks, changed all the hardware, and added push pull.... But boy is it fun to fly!!!
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:25 PM
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iflyg450
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Default RE: PLEASE READ!!! Critical safety tips

Good point if you install a engine larger than recomened you better strenghten the plane.
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