NOW BE HONEST....
08-10-2009, 09:19 PM
#26
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
Back in 1984 when me and a friend first got into building and flying AMA Fast Combat, our first batch of planes were 49" foamies that just had a full depth 1/16" plywood spar, full span. These planes flew great until the spar decided to fail. Never any warning, just a big BANG...then confetti.
We were both pretty embarrassed at our first big contest with planes that couldn't even last 5 minutes on their own. One of the "old pros" at that contest came up to us with that line in my signature, which made me and my partner feel much better. Like we were on the right track, or something.
We were both pretty embarrassed at our first big contest with planes that couldn't even last 5 minutes on their own. One of the "old pros" at that contest came up to us with that line in my signature, which made me and my partner feel much better. Like we were on the right track, or something.
08-10-2009, 09:26 PM
#27
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
CP,
I know you come a long way in the build but you asked for opinions so I offer one up.
If you were to try something like this again I would lose the squared off fuselage.
I know a circular fuselage would work much better, but be a real pain to build, but blended into the wing it would really be slippery.
I love the swept and tapered wing, not to mention the airfoil should be pretty nice in overall performance.
The only part of it I could take issue with was the box...
But I like beating myself up building complex shapes, so don't go by me...
Edit to add:
One trick I have been using to stiffen up foam wings that I glass without sheathing is embedding small carbon fiber rods into the top and bottom of the wing before I glass them. Using a ball point pen against a straight edge, a bit of light pressure will scribe an indented line into the top and bottom of the wing where I embed the rods in a small amount of epoxy or if really trying to keep it light some foam safe CA. Then I glass over the wing and when it is done it is "very" stiff, any of the rubber feeling is gone without adding a lot of weight.
I know you come a long way in the build but you asked for opinions so I offer one up.
If you were to try something like this again I would lose the squared off fuselage.
I know a circular fuselage would work much better, but be a real pain to build, but blended into the wing it would really be slippery.
I love the swept and tapered wing, not to mention the airfoil should be pretty nice in overall performance.
The only part of it I could take issue with was the box...
But I like beating myself up building complex shapes, so don't go by me...
Edit to add:
One trick I have been using to stiffen up foam wings that I glass without sheathing is embedding small carbon fiber rods into the top and bottom of the wing before I glass them. Using a ball point pen against a straight edge, a bit of light pressure will scribe an indented line into the top and bottom of the wing where I embed the rods in a small amount of epoxy or if really trying to keep it light some foam safe CA. Then I glass over the wing and when it is done it is "very" stiff, any of the rubber feeling is gone without adding a lot of weight.
08-10-2009, 11:00 PM
#28
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
ORIGINAL: smoknrv4
Is that some sort of prerequisite, to be a ''True'' speed freak or something?[8D]
Is that some sort of prerequisite, to be a ''True'' speed freak or something?[8D]
08-11-2009, 12:05 AM
#29
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
ORIGINAL: iron eagel
One trick I have been using to stiffen up foam wings that I glass without sheathing is embedding small carbon fiber rods into the top and bottom of the wing before I glass them. Using a ball point pen against a straight edge, a bit of light pressure will scribe an indented line into the top and bottom of the wing where I embed the rods in a small amount of epoxy or if really trying to keep it light some foam safe CA. Then I glass over the wing and when it is done it is ''very'' stiff, any of the rubber feeling is gone without adding a lot of weight.
One trick I have been using to stiffen up foam wings that I glass without sheathing is embedding small carbon fiber rods into the top and bottom of the wing before I glass them. Using a ball point pen against a straight edge, a bit of light pressure will scribe an indented line into the top and bottom of the wing where I embed the rods in a small amount of epoxy or if really trying to keep it light some foam safe CA. Then I glass over the wing and when it is done it is ''very'' stiff, any of the rubber feeling is gone without adding a lot of weight.
One is to cap the D section with light carbon veil between the foam and the skin. This adds a good dose of torsional stiffness.
The other is to use a strip of .003" unidirectional CF laminate about 1/4" wide epoxied into shallow grooves made into the top and bottom high points, with sandpaper on the edge of a piece of appropriately thick balsa scrap. The reason I like this stuff more than rods, is that under bending loads the wide laminate applies force to a greater surface area of foam, so gaining compressive strength and making for a stiffer and stronger beam. But yeah, I agree those rods work pretty well too. Depends how hard the wing is to be flogged I guess.
You could one degree farther easily but it's kind of daring.. slit the wing core lengthwise at the high point, then lay up a shear web on one of the cut faces, with end-grain 1/16" balsa. Takes about three times as long to do it as to type it, esp with foam safe CA, but with carpenter's glue or whatever, any way it's not much of a chore. Then reacquaint the two wing halves using adhesive of choice, and sand the balsa flush. Go ahead and sand a little inset for the CF spar caps now, ensuring you sand flush to the end grain balsa - so that the CF caps make intimate contact with the balsa all the way along their respective lengths. At this point, go the whole 9 millimeters and add the veil then glass it. Should be light and pretty darn stiff and strong too.
MJD
08-11-2009, 01:10 AM
#30
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
IE, are you talking about using spaghetti thin rods? I can see how a few rows would keep a wing like this from flexxing or twisting. I would lash them to webbing in the center section and near the tips now that I think of it.
MJD, I don't think the webs between the CF strips would have to be continuous, you could skip some spots and keep the foam core more or less intact. I'm not sure about a 1/16" balsa web, I'd want it to be thick enough for the caps to stick to it.
MJD, I don't think the webs between the CF strips would have to be continuous, you could skip some spots and keep the foam core more or less intact. I'm not sure about a 1/16" balsa web, I'd want it to be thick enough for the caps to stick to it.
08-11-2009, 11:18 AM
#31
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
CP,
I used very thin rods on a gws mustang wing they were smaller than 1/16 of an inch. I used a pair over and under the wing where the spar would normally be located, and another pair at the trailing edge, this I covered with thin/light fiberglass. Yes it made the wing very stiff, and even did a lot to reduce the amount of twist you could put on the wing from the root to the tip. I have also done something similar to what MJD is talking about to a small SIG Cub (the old Berkley kit) using flat carbon fiber rods bonded to balsa for the spars, to top off the shear web I added. I also added a rear spar just ahead of the trailing edge that backed up the balsa which formed the rear of the wing where the ailerons were hinged. I changed the wing to a 10% symmetrical airfoil and since it was not going to be a scale airplane modified it so the wing does not have struts. That is why I went through all the work to stiffen the wing as much as I could.
I like MJD idea of adding a shear web topped by carbon fiber rods and embedded back into the foam, with the type of adhesives we have available to us today you can glue the foam back on to it and it will never separate, the wing will be destroyed and the spar will remain intact. (Don't ask me how I know this just trust me, one good thing is that you can recycle the carbon fiber rods after some sanding.)
I also like the carbon fiber veil which MJD is talking about. I have use the .02 Oz/yard stuff over balsa sheathing and it really makes a strong wing/fuselage/cowl/whatever. I am just now starting to experiment with it trying to make some ribs using a layer of veil laminated to the sides of the rib to make up for having a good portion of the balsa remove.
I would really like to try making a hollow spar in the near future using Balsa and carbon fiber veil and rods.
The 1/16 balsa would work well for the shear web the carbon fiber on smaller spans the 1/16X1/32 flat rods work well as the spars when bonded to the balsa shear webs.
The trick I have found with the carbon is to keep it as small as possible it is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than balsa so a little bit goes a long way...
For larger structures the hollow rod also works well.
The trick with carbon fiber is to get a strong joint/bond, you need to make your joints on the order of tinker toys if you can picture what I mean.
I used very thin rods on a gws mustang wing they were smaller than 1/16 of an inch. I used a pair over and under the wing where the spar would normally be located, and another pair at the trailing edge, this I covered with thin/light fiberglass. Yes it made the wing very stiff, and even did a lot to reduce the amount of twist you could put on the wing from the root to the tip. I have also done something similar to what MJD is talking about to a small SIG Cub (the old Berkley kit) using flat carbon fiber rods bonded to balsa for the spars, to top off the shear web I added. I also added a rear spar just ahead of the trailing edge that backed up the balsa which formed the rear of the wing where the ailerons were hinged. I changed the wing to a 10% symmetrical airfoil and since it was not going to be a scale airplane modified it so the wing does not have struts. That is why I went through all the work to stiffen the wing as much as I could.
I like MJD idea of adding a shear web topped by carbon fiber rods and embedded back into the foam, with the type of adhesives we have available to us today you can glue the foam back on to it and it will never separate, the wing will be destroyed and the spar will remain intact. (Don't ask me how I know this just trust me, one good thing is that you can recycle the carbon fiber rods after some sanding.)
I also like the carbon fiber veil which MJD is talking about. I have use the .02 Oz/yard stuff over balsa sheathing and it really makes a strong wing/fuselage/cowl/whatever. I am just now starting to experiment with it trying to make some ribs using a layer of veil laminated to the sides of the rib to make up for having a good portion of the balsa remove.
I would really like to try making a hollow spar in the near future using Balsa and carbon fiber veil and rods.
The 1/16 balsa would work well for the shear web the carbon fiber on smaller spans the 1/16X1/32 flat rods work well as the spars when bonded to the balsa shear webs.
The trick I have found with the carbon is to keep it as small as possible it is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than balsa so a little bit goes a long way...
For larger structures the hollow rod also works well.
The trick with carbon fiber is to get a strong joint/bond, you need to make your joints on the order of tinker toys if you can picture what I mean.
08-11-2009, 11:45 AM
#32
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
IE, are you talking about using spaghetti thin rods? I can see how a few rows would keep a wing like this from flexxing or twisting. I would lash them to webbing in the center section and near the tips now that I think of it.
MJD, I don't think the webs between the CF strips would have to be continuous, you could skip some spots and keep the foam core more or less intact. I'm not sure about a 1/16'' balsa web, I'd want it to be thick enough for the caps to stick to it.
IE, are you talking about using spaghetti thin rods? I can see how a few rows would keep a wing like this from flexxing or twisting. I would lash them to webbing in the center section and near the tips now that I think of it.
MJD, I don't think the webs between the CF strips would have to be continuous, you could skip some spots and keep the foam core more or less intact. I'm not sure about a 1/16'' balsa web, I'd want it to be thick enough for the caps to stick to it.
I agree on the intermittent webs, you can leave joiners in the foam to leave the core intact and slide the webs in. I think the method of choice is just a matter of what turns your crank, they're both easy but in different ways.
Yeah CP, a good bond to the balsa is important to prevent delam at nasty loads - if you went light and used thicker balsa that works fine too. For example, zip the core through a blade with a 1/8" kerf and use light 1/8" and you're back to square one with the airfoil. With the flat caps bonded well to the foam and balsa it's pretty tough as is. If you need every bit of strength you can possibly muster - in your case with 22" span models with 4/10hp Cyclons maybe that's a given ;-) - then honestly, I'd grab a sewing needle and a spool of Kevlar thread and bind the caps/web and lock it with thin foam safe CA. Many of the small built up high tech lekkies and gliders from Ukraine, use end grain balsa shear web cores with unidirectional CF caps, and the whole affair is wound end-to-end with Kevlar thread to resist delamination under load - not a lot, imagine the turns are ~ 1/2" apart or so and you get the picture. None of this stuff is tough or laborious to do, it's just a matter of having the materials ready on hand and having a game plan.
IE - it is common for those models to also have a lamination of glass or CF on either side of the shear web material to toughen it up and, I suppose, to help lock everything together vertically.
My Simple 400 has a standard ACE tapered wing set, and I capped the cores top and bottom with one strip of carbon tow in a sanded groove as described above. I wet the tow with laminating epoxy before application, and also brushed the foam core. Then I lay a strip of scrap covering film backing over each side, set them on a flat bench and placed a weighted aluminum bar over the spar area to smoosh it down flat. It was quick and easy to do, and I can bury the sticks at top speed to tumble it, and pull out of WOT terminal dives without worry. Top speed is >>100mph with a 400W motor package and 5x5 prop, and it weighs about 20 ounces, so it's getting flogged pretty hard. Covering is Coverlite or whatever it's called, one of those lekkie films.
MJD
08-11-2009, 11:55 AM
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
ORIGINAL: MJD
Yeah - it all depends how much of a pain the profile of the wing is when it comes to rejoining the halves. If you have the foam nests still, then it's generally a cinch.
I agree on the intermittent webs, you can leave joiners in the foam to leave the core intact and slide the webs in. I think the method of choice is just a matter of what turns your crank, they're both easy but in different ways.
Yeah CP, a good bond to the balsa is important to prevent delam at nasty loads - if you went light and used thicker balsa that works fine too. For example, zip the core through a blade with a 1/8'' kerf and use light 1/8'' and you're back to square one with the airfoil. With the flat caps bonded well to the foam and balsa it's pretty tough as is. If you need every bit of strength you can possibly muster - in your case with 22'' span models with 4/10hp Cyclons maybe that's a given ;-) - then honestly, I'd grab a sewing needle and a spool of Kevlar thread and bind the caps/web and lock it with thin foam safe CA. Many of the small built up high tech lekkies and gliders from Ukraine, use end grain balsa shear web cores with unidirectional CF caps, and the whole affair is wound end-to-end with Kevlar thread to resist delamination under load - not a lot, imagine the turns are ~ 1/2'' apart or so and you get the picture. None of this stuff is tough or laborious to do, it's just a matter of having the materials ready on hand and having a game plan.
IE - it is common for those models to also have a lamination of glass or CF on either side of the shear web material to toughen it up and, I suppose, to help lock everything together vertically.
My Simple 400 has a standard ACE tapered wing set, and I capped the cores top and bottom with one strip of carbon tow in a sanded groove as described above. I wet the tow with laminating epoxy before application, and also brushed the foam core. Then I lay a strip of scrap covering film backing over each side, set them on a flat bench and placed a weighted aluminum bar over the spar area to smoosh it down flat. It was quick and easy to do, and I can bury the sticks at top speed to tumble it, and pull out of WOT terminal dives without worry. Top speed is >>100mph with a 400W motor package and 5x5 prop, and it weighs about 20 ounces, so it's getting flogged pretty hard. Covering is Coverlite or whatever it's called, one of those lekkie films.
MJD
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
IE, are you talking about using spaghetti thin rods? I can see how a few rows would keep a wing like this from flexxing or twisting. I would lash them to webbing in the center section and near the tips now that I think of it.
MJD, I don't think the webs between the CF strips would have to be continuous, you could skip some spots and keep the foam core more or less intact. I'm not sure about a 1/16'' balsa web, I'd want it to be thick enough for the caps to stick to it.
IE, are you talking about using spaghetti thin rods? I can see how a few rows would keep a wing like this from flexxing or twisting. I would lash them to webbing in the center section and near the tips now that I think of it.
MJD, I don't think the webs between the CF strips would have to be continuous, you could skip some spots and keep the foam core more or less intact. I'm not sure about a 1/16'' balsa web, I'd want it to be thick enough for the caps to stick to it.
I agree on the intermittent webs, you can leave joiners in the foam to leave the core intact and slide the webs in. I think the method of choice is just a matter of what turns your crank, they're both easy but in different ways.
Yeah CP, a good bond to the balsa is important to prevent delam at nasty loads - if you went light and used thicker balsa that works fine too. For example, zip the core through a blade with a 1/8'' kerf and use light 1/8'' and you're back to square one with the airfoil. With the flat caps bonded well to the foam and balsa it's pretty tough as is. If you need every bit of strength you can possibly muster - in your case with 22'' span models with 4/10hp Cyclons maybe that's a given ;-) - then honestly, I'd grab a sewing needle and a spool of Kevlar thread and bind the caps/web and lock it with thin foam safe CA. Many of the small built up high tech lekkies and gliders from Ukraine, use end grain balsa shear web cores with unidirectional CF caps, and the whole affair is wound end-to-end with Kevlar thread to resist delamination under load - not a lot, imagine the turns are ~ 1/2'' apart or so and you get the picture. None of this stuff is tough or laborious to do, it's just a matter of having the materials ready on hand and having a game plan.
IE - it is common for those models to also have a lamination of glass or CF on either side of the shear web material to toughen it up and, I suppose, to help lock everything together vertically.
My Simple 400 has a standard ACE tapered wing set, and I capped the cores top and bottom with one strip of carbon tow in a sanded groove as described above. I wet the tow with laminating epoxy before application, and also brushed the foam core. Then I lay a strip of scrap covering film backing over each side, set them on a flat bench and placed a weighted aluminum bar over the spar area to smoosh it down flat. It was quick and easy to do, and I can bury the sticks at top speed to tumble it, and pull out of WOT terminal dives without worry. Top speed is >>100mph with a 400W motor package and 5x5 prop, and it weighs about 20 ounces, so it's getting flogged pretty hard. Covering is Coverlite or whatever it's called, one of those lekkie films.
MJD
Warp speed now Mr Sulu!!!
08-11-2009, 04:20 PM
#34
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
ORIGINAL: iron eagel
Oh yea, now were talking!
Warp speed now Mr Sulu!!!
Oh yea, now were talking!
Warp speed now Mr Sulu!!!
MJD
08-13-2009, 11:14 PM
#35
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
Well, here it is......waiting for a pair of servos to show up. With a pair of "dummy" servos it is 3lbs 12 ozs RTF......might have to test fly with a 10x6.
In the looks department, it would be very nice for "D" class RC combat. This project taught me several things not to do with resin, foam and glass. My next effort will be a traditional foamie with balsa sheeting. Time to start looking for a vacuum pump. It looks like the little pump that Aerospace Composites sells will work....but why do they sell replacement diaphrams for it? [
]
Are they trying to scare the public into buying the more expensive pumps?
In the looks department, it would be very nice for "D" class RC combat. This project taught me several things not to do with resin, foam and glass. My next effort will be a traditional foamie with balsa sheeting. Time to start looking for a vacuum pump. It looks like the little pump that Aerospace Composites sells will work....but why do they sell replacement diaphrams for it? [
]Are they trying to scare the public into buying the more expensive pumps?
08-14-2009, 12:01 AM
#36
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
Well, here it is......waiting for a pair of servos to show up. With a pair of ''dummy'' servos it is 3lbs 12 ozs RTF......might have to test fly with a 10x6.
In the looks department, it would be very nice for ''D'' class RC combat. This project taught me several things not to do with resin, foam and glass. My next effort will be a traditional foamie with balsa sheeting. Time to start looking for a vacuum pump. It looks like the little pump that Aerospace Composites sells will work....but why do they sell replacement diaphrams for it? []
Are they trying to scare the public into buying the more expensive pumps?
Well, here it is......waiting for a pair of servos to show up. With a pair of ''dummy'' servos it is 3lbs 12 ozs RTF......might have to test fly with a 10x6.
In the looks department, it would be very nice for ''D'' class RC combat. This project taught me several things not to do with resin, foam and glass. My next effort will be a traditional foamie with balsa sheeting. Time to start looking for a vacuum pump. It looks like the little pump that Aerospace Composites sells will work....but why do they sell replacement diaphrams for it? [
]Are they trying to scare the public into buying the more expensive pumps?
. Good call on the grippy prop for first flight, you have enough to worry about already. Let 'er rip!MJD
08-14-2009, 11:25 AM
#37
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
CP,
You asked for honesty...I think you have been taking design and finishing tips from Raymond.
If you want to do vac bagging you can go the cheap route with an old fridge compressor and a few inexpensive add-ons and have a great working unit. I love mine.
You asked for honesty...I think you have been taking design and finishing tips from Raymond.
If you want to do vac bagging you can go the cheap route with an old fridge compressor and a few inexpensive add-ons and have a great working unit. I love mine.
08-14-2009, 11:58 AM
#38
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
That COLD man [&:]! AS soon as the UPS truck gets here I can try this thing out. My only full range TX with elevon capability crapped out when I was giving that 1/2A pusher plane it's maiden flight....[&o] First time I'd ever had that happen in 25 years. So I ordered an exact replacement radio, but they all have electronic trims now......[:@]
I had to go into a Hitler Tirade on the phone to get Tower to send me an odd numbered channel. Either they are trying to save shelf space, or FUTABA is trying to make their 72 stuff obsolete, slowly but surely on purpose.
I'm going to get in touch with you about the pump details, I about choked when I saw what ACS sells their stuff for.
I had to go into a Hitler Tirade on the phone to get Tower to send me an odd numbered channel. Either they are trying to save shelf space, or FUTABA is trying to make their 72 stuff obsolete, slowly but surely on purpose.
I'm going to get in touch with you about the pump details, I about choked when I saw what ACS sells their stuff for.
08-15-2009, 09:08 AM
#39
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
Sorry to hear about your radio...
It does seem that they have already decided that 72 MHz is going to go away, and seem to be pushing the 2.4 Ghz units.
Hope the maiden goes well, I bet it is very quick.
It does seem that they have already decided that 72 MHz is going to go away, and seem to be pushing the 2.4 Ghz units.
Hope the maiden goes well, I bet it is very quick.
08-17-2009, 12:59 PM
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RE: NOW BE HONEST....
CP
try this link, its got some great pics of vac pump setups and direct links to vacuum switches, http://joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/what-and-why.htm 24.95 for the part and all the specs for usage, and its a very cool site with lots of pics of guys vac systems
try this link, its got some great pics of vac pump setups and direct links to vacuum switches, http://joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/what-and-why.htm 24.95 for the part and all the specs for usage, and its a very cool site with lots of pics of guys vac systems
08-17-2009, 05:55 PM
#43
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
No the regular outlets for things like this were no good. I need to look in my other computer for the link to the site that I got them from. I ended up working thru a local (Charlotte) distributor but everything was super smooth.
There is too much to read thru of the same style pump in the JW site. The link for mine is also in the other computer. I just gotta dig it up.
There is too much to read thru of the same style pump in the JW site. The link for mine is also in the other computer. I just gotta dig it up.
08-19-2009, 11:02 PM
#45
RE: NOW BE HONEST....
Ohhhhh....this sucker isn't even worth the calories I burn to type this flight report.
It flys nicely if you keep the speed down.
Anything above......oh, about 50 and it starts looking like an epileptic wino.
The CG is perfect, takeoffs and landings are very stable.
Roll response is slow, but that is what was programmed.
The airfoil is too pointed, the wing is too flexible, the plane is too heavy and when you combine those 3 items, you end up with a plane that will get stripped down and burn barreled before sun-up tomorrow!
Live and learn, if this was easy the Girl Scouts would be doing it.
It flys nicely if you keep the speed down.
Anything above......oh, about 50 and it starts looking like an epileptic wino.
The CG is perfect, takeoffs and landings are very stable.
Roll response is slow, but that is what was programmed.
The airfoil is too pointed, the wing is too flexible, the plane is too heavy and when you combine those 3 items, you end up with a plane that will get stripped down and burn barreled before sun-up tomorrow!
Live and learn, if this was easy the Girl Scouts would be doing it.